After repeating the many thanks and credit our dear R' Guard deserves, I would like to make a few points.

I myself have B"H been "clean" for close to 3 years. This was without any 12 step program. I actually went through the effort to write up my aproach, which R' Guard sent out a few weeks ago. It does not appear to have been adequate for the couple of people I dealt with directly about it, so I am hesitant to put down the 12 steps.

On a personal level though, when I need someone to reach out to for the challenges of life (e.g. When I was travelling last week and the hotel pool beckoned) there does not seem to be adequate vitality of the disussion I am looking for. I am thinking about how to improve this, and would appreciate if all the non-12 steppers here would join me in working on this.
 

kosher - where can we see your approach? maybe start a new thread for guys like yourself to discuss a working approach.

geshertzarmeod wrote on 16 Mar 2011 01:29:


It was sent out as part of Chizuk email #965 and shemiras einayim email #437.

The link is:
www.guardureyes.com/GUE/PDFs/ebooks/Reah%20Chaim.pdf

The issue is managing to get discussions on the appropriate level with adequate vitality. People have tried started threads of that nature, but they don't seem to get very far. No one can be blamed, but we do need to come up with a plan to deal with this.

ur-a-jew wrote on 15 Mar 2011 23:04:

I would have thought you were right, but convincing a healthy person that they are an addict is not so Pashut. Like the Mashal I mentioned earlier - we wouldn't treat pneumonia with chemo. Chemo destroys the good cells along with the bad and it's reserved for desperate cases, Lo aleinu. A healthy person convinced he's an addict is at high emotional risk.


100% - and they should address that; just not necessarily with treatments reserved for real addicts.

I'm not sure if you're taking a jab at me here. I have gained a ton from this site and it was that struggle above that forced me into putting my all into this. I struggled with the term addict and it took much thought before I could sort out mild addiction from hard core addiction. For the record, I'm now, B"H, in the midst of my longest streak - 124 clean days!

guardureyes wrote on 15 Mar 2011 23:10:

Ok, I finally updated the GYE Welcoming package. It now suggests the "Program in a Nutshell" and the newer edition of the handbook, as well as contains better links to the phone conferences and other changes...

From now on, when a newcomer joins the forum, please point them to this link: www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3677.0 (or copy and paste the welcome for them - just make sure you include the links).

Yasher Koach!

YVY: The problem is that the moshul is not domeh to the nimshul. Which part of the 12 steps is killing good cells: developing a relationship with Hashem, not keep resentments inside, doing for others. I just don't get it.
Moreover most people who are here whether or not they are addicts are not "healthy."  And no quoting back your words was not intended as a "jab" it reflects my firm belief that neither you or I are "healthy."  If we were we would not be Yashuv v'Yashuv we would have said long ago this detrimentally affects my life, my marriage, my job, my religious observance everything that's important to me so I'm stopping. But it somehow never works. When a healthy person sticks his hand in the fire and it burns him he stops putting his hand in the fire. We don't.  The fact that we only put our hands into relatively small fires and not raging infernos does not make us "healthy."  Moreover the fact that I have never visited a massage parlor never acted out live -- and with Hashem's help I hope I never will -- does not mean I can't learn from these people. If they can get sober then I can too.

ur-a-jew wrote on 16 Mar 2011 13:34:

My understanding is that it's mostly Step 1 - admitting powerlessness, labeling yourself as an addict, and joining a fellowship of other addicts labeling you as an addict by association. That's a big blow to a person's ego and some people have trouble recovering from big blows.

Excellent point. However, I will argue that a sick person can use healthy means to heal his sickness, or he can use unhealthy means. He has to assess his level of sickness and find the appropriate medication. No one in this world is absolutely "healthy." Being sent to this world by the Borai means, by definition, that we are unhealthy and that there are issues we need to work out through our life.

There's plenty to learn from these people and I'm living testimony to that. I was "prescribed" a large dose of medication and I had enough Seichel, with Hashem's guidance, to not take the full dose, but there's a risk when you hand a sick person an inappropriate prescription.

I agree with UAJ that there is nothing harmful in the 12 steps (on the contrary), it's just that healthy (or "not so sick") people aren't desperate enough to go through the trouble of working the steps.  But, if they would, they would experience a great benefit.  That does not mean that everyone should be going to live SA meetings - Rabbi Twerski said (at GYE's historical parlor meeting in August) that live meetings are not for everyone. 

What YVY is suggesting is that the label "addict" can be harmful.  If that's true, it's largely because of a misunderstanding that addicts = nutcases.  That's not correct at all.  My understanding (as discussed in the Big Book) is that an addiction = an allergy.  We are very sensitive to pornography and other lust triggers, and therefore simply need to avoid them.  When a person comes to this realization, it's a huge burden off his shoulders - he simply knows that he has to avoid certain things, and should use whatever ways and means (12 steps or otherwise) that allow him to do so.

Kedusha wrote on 16 Mar 2011 14:00:
Right, but that misunderstanding of addict is not disappearing anytime soon. That is how it's understood in our culture. I'm comfortable saying that we are all addicts in many areas. Chazal say, "Once a person does a Chet twice it becomes like Heter." It's a learned behavior and learned behaviors don't go away with Teshuva. You get Mechila, Slicha, V'Chapara with Teshuva, but not freedom from learned behaviors. Yes - the 12 steps are helpful for recovery from all sorts of things - Lashon Harah, Not focusing on Davening, Shmoozing during Seder, cheating on your Taxes, etc. Most people are not so passionate about these things (unfortunate, but completely normal and "healthy") and are therefore not driven to desperation.

What I've learned from Step 1 "That I am powerless" is that Hashem control everything in this world. There is no such thing as "Kochi V'Otzem Yadi" I can't do anything by myself. In the same manner that I realize that I can't beat this addiction by myself, the same is true by everything. Addiction is just a tangible lesson a moshol. To everything else.

I always knew in theory that Hashem runs the world and I have no power, but now I know it as clearly as I know that I can't lift a car. I now apply this beautiful lesson to other aspects of my life.

My parnasa - it's not in my hands, it's all Hashem.
My kids / wife are not doing what I want? - it's not in my hands, it's all Hashem.
The driver in front of me talking on his cellphone who just made me miss the light? - it's not in my hands, it's all Hashem.
The radioactive nuclear cloud travelling around the world? - it's not in my hands, it's all Hashem.

Now if only I would remember that these posters who say such moronic things are also not in my hands.....

Oh Me3! Hakol b'yada shomaim chutz miyiras shomaim...

Aino Domeh Shimiya L'ri'iyah.

Ditto to everything Me3 said.

YVY wrote on 16 Mar 2011 13:59:


It's interesting but the word addict is not used in Step 1 at all:  "We admitted we were powerless over _______—that our lives had become unmanageable."

Do these same people get a blow to their ego when they read the gemara that says "Yitzro shel odom mesgaber alov bchol yom . . . v'ulmelay HKBH ozro ayno yochul lo."  Or how about when they say three times a day in Shemone Esrei "והנורא" and recognize that He is awesome in that no creation can do good or bad only according to His will. 
I'm all for self-esteem but it may be that a little blow to the overinflated ego ain't so bad.  Generally it's our ego that gets us in to this mess in the first place.  After all why isn't my wife satisfying me doesn't she understand that I am in the mood and if she's not going to or my boss is going to treat me like that I am entitled to a little [pick your pleasure]. 

ur-a-jew wrote on 16 Mar 2011 14:44:

A tub of Ben & Jerry's?

(if only!)

o wrote on 16 Mar 2011 14:46:


I wondered what the "o" stood for.  Overeaters Anonymous is a different website.