@YVY - thank you very much for bringing up the issue. As Yosef Hatzadik said, there is a major "one size fits all" attitude on this site. And yes, that can lead to people being "branded" and placing themeless in a worse off condition than they started off in! (I think that was the gist of what you were saying?)

While I'm not 1000% sure there is "no such thing" as an addict (haters, keep it yourself please), I'm very sure that the majority of people that hit this site, (especially considering the publicity it has enjoyed in major jewish publications) are "regular" run of the mill people simply trying to be good jews. A lot of these people need nothing more that "a warm bowl of soup" - a pat on the back that says "no, your not crazy, your 100% healthy and normal and you CAN fight back". There is probably no need to distract the majority of newcomers with all the mumbo-jumbo reserved for those with serious cases.

I think that a lot of people tend to judge others based on their own standards. So if one guy ends up wasting his money on a placebo goes to a shrink, he is sure that every one else needs to do that. If the 12 steps worked for an individual it becomes the "new guide to obtaining levels in avodas Hashem that youve never been able to reach before." Someone even went as far to suggest that you'de be missing from your shlemous in advodas Hashem if you didnt live by the 12 steps!

Personally, I believe that when chazal say Hafoch Boh V'Hafoch Boh Ki Kulo Boh - they werent talking about an apple turnover. Meaning, that our torah - that has guided us for thousands of years - has the tools to deal with trials being faced. Hashem couldn't/wouldn't be excepting us to be saints if we didnt have the tools to do it. And I havnt found anywhere in Torah where were all labeled addicts...

While I brought up a similar point two weeks ago, there are two problems at hand here:

1. There are no alternatives (that I know of) to this site. In as much as there is room for improvement, who am I to say that we'de be better off without it


2. People are so blinded by western society, that they are blindly following "Rabanim" just because they decided to call them selfs Rabbi. (I wont mention names here, but there is a famous Rebbe that has a profile on Linked In. His "Position" in the "company"? Grand Rabbi! That is his "position"! You get a degree in Rabinics and now you can became a Grand Rabbi to lead klal yisroel)

and hence it is difficult to bring up points such as those that you mentioned.

Dont get me wrong - I dont doubt guard's intentions for one second. And I have a ton of respect for him for doing this. G-d knows that (al pi derech hateva) this site wont get his kids married off any faster (although im sure he will see a ton of syata dishmaya) - and yet he is trying his best to help as many people as possible. Its really unfortionate that we have strayed so far from our original mesorh that people dont even begin to see what wrong here.

Perhaps it would be constructive to divide the site by severity: say teenagers, married for a few years falling only occasionally, married for a long time  and still seeing no way out, etc. (dont get technical, just giving examples). I have meet very few Yeshiva Bochurim that really need SA meeting (cause if I'm wrong, pretty much every yeshiva I'v been to ought to close there gemoras and focus solely SA...)

This site has helped a ton of people, and I sincerely hope that it can continue to serve klal yisroel al taharos hakodesh

uh oh o
I have sense a tsunami coming.
Find high ground, quick!

geshertzarmeod wrote on 15 Mar 2011 21:58:

I would get on a bridge - but its pretty narrow...

hey gesher.
How's it going..

good thing Guard has provided for spiritual emergencies and damage control...
would not want to see get too out of hand for you, to the point that you reach nuclear REACTION explosion!

B"H for GYE, and Guard.

Peace of mind, and a moment of Calm are now considered the most valueable resources in Japan - and just think, GYE gives it to you free of charge!

dov.ii

Who me? Im fine, I was just worried about the wave of comments that o was going to get for his brave stance. Im just an innocent bystander, trying to figure out if I need the 12 steps or if the one step is ok. This issue has been following me throughout the past month and i think its great that this thread is addressing the needs of those of us who feel that we need help (we definitely need help) but arent sure that the 12 steps and the whole kit'n kaboodle is necessary. Just looking for some clarity. So I'll sit back and watch the show.

I would start countering O's arguments, but the one thing he's proven without any doubt is that he refuses to listen to counter arguments, and quite frankly I haven't the time.

If anybody feels there is validity in o's arguments (there may be a shred or two somewhere in there, if you look carefully enough) kindly look back at his older posts and all the responses written there.

The following is the way a teenager ended his participation on the GYE forum:

Chazak Amenu wrote on 16 Jun 2010 02:46:

Chazak Amenu wrote on 16 Jun 2010 13:14:

Oy li miYotzri, Oy li MiYitzri...

Good night boys.

Please keep it clean.

E

o wrote on 15 Mar 2011 21:51:


Dear o,

There is nothing 'wrong here'. GYE has no hidden agenda. We support any method that "works" for anyone, and we let everyone post their experience on the forum. So the forum ends up being a big "choulant" of approaches. Dov's approach and the 12-Step method is indeed for the more serious cases, but since many people here seem to need to hear what Dov has to say, he posted a lot and it may not have been what you needed to hear.

After dealing with hundreds of frum Yidden with these problems over the past 3 years, and seeing what works for everyone in different levels, we put together something called "The GYE Program in a Nutshell". I would appreciate it if you could please read it carefully and see how we don't even mention the 12-Steps until level 6 (out of 8 ). And that is the GYE approach.

Just because you hear a lot of 12-Step talk on the forum doesn't mean GYE's approach is mainly 12-Step. If you believe most guys on the forum are in earlier levels of this struggle, let them try the suggestions for levels 1 - 5. If it helps them, good. If not, at least they'll know and have heard on the forum that there are other things to try. That's the whole idea.

The new website we are building now will be less of a "choulant" and will be set up lechatchilah based on these different levels, as you suggested.

Thanks for dropping by Guard

There are some people who do not belong here.

In fact I've suggested to some of them to leave.

In fact I still wish that they do.

(If you think I mean you, I probably do).

o wrote on 15 Mar 2011 21:51:

I would be certainly Meshadech with him! He's like the Mike Tress of our generation! Guard - maybe we'll speak in 12 years...

Guard, thanks for allowing the open exchange on this sometimes heated topic. What you are suggesting sounds like a great idea and also seems like it will placate most people here. May I suggest putting that "GYE Program in a Nutshell" as a prominent part of the welcome package, or for any new member to see. It's something so important, yet hidden away amongst all the treasures on this site.

Me3, you seem like a great guy, but your comments come across as mean-hearted and just as, if not more extreme, than those of "o" (who I do not fully agree with either).  A forum is for an open exchange of ideas, not for attacks on other people. Leave it to the moderators to decide which ideas are unacceptable and they will deal with it. Telling people of your wishes for them to leave is not becoming of you. I understand how it is easy to become heated up about something you are passionate about, but that doesn't make your words any more acceptable. Thanks

I was sitting next to someone on the train and noticed the following caption to an article:  "Better scared than sorry."  It think its an apt principle for the men's forum.  Better someone think that they are an addict and act accordingly then have them ignore the problem and end up never getting rid of their problem/addiction/whatever you want to call it.  And for all the non-addicts who only occasionally dabble in porn if you think it has no effect on your married life, you are living in la-la land. 

For a woman, I agree that it's a different story.  Woman are too emotionally sensitive and if improperly exposed to all of the addictions on the site the result will be their seeing a predator, adulterer and addict everywhere they turn.

As for the need for the site, I think it was best highlighted by the following quote:

YVY wrote on 15 Mar 2011 16:15:


Thank you Guard for everything.

Everyone loves quoting their Rebbe Muvhak

guardureyes wrote on 07 Mar 2011 17:36:


Look Rabbosai, at the end of the day, this stuff (internet P**n) is the 'crack cocaine' of S** addictions. So although there are different levels of addiction, and the shailah is which person needs what pills and when; the underlying concern here is that people may need help which they aren't getting -because an addiction is regressive and agressive. It make take days, weeks, or years but the nature of these behaviors just is that they usually get worse before they can get better.

Therefore, a lot of pain, suffering, and -yes -aveiros can be spared if a person realizes that he may need the tools of recovery (none of which are a stirah to yesoidos hadas -aderabbah, you can find a mekor for every one of the twelve steps in the Torah, if you are open minded. The 'gilui' however was made by Bill and his Doctor friend!) which is only possible if he hits bottom while still on top.

Otherwise, even if he will manage to stay out of 'trouble' for long periods of time -he will be living a life of pain and constant struggle -much of which is the result of the fact that he is fighting the Yetzer HaRa -without enlisting the help of Hashem by being mevatel his retzonos to Hashem; unlike the eitzah of Chazal: (to paraphrase) HaKadosh Baruch Hu Ozro -Yuchol Loi . This is a tool which some ovdei Hashem don't know p'shat in -until they hear the 12 steps terminology -"surrender".

I too took and take great issue with any of the SA devotees whose initial Shalom Alaichem for any newcomer -even if we're talking about a 15 year old bachur who gets on line to look at girls in swimsuits and m*******s a bit -with the standard (this is almost a quote of someone very specific, with no intention of offense), "Hi! Welcome! You'll probably soon see that there's no substitute for a live SA group, as this is the only thing that's worked for me!". But, the base GYE program -especially since the moderators take great pains that there be as little triggering/leading information as possible -is absolutely harmless for anyone who has seen p***ography and has not been able to hold himself back despite the fact that he knew that it was wrong.

Let's get real, how many guys who have surfed the net for p**n -even those who don't get turned on by these things -not know the definition of most of the kinds of deviancies and associated terminology that's out there in the near and far reaches of the Internet?

As far as the wives are concerned, that's a totally different subject. My Rebbitzen is (and I'm not saying this because I'm partial or a ba'al dimyoin -it's just a fact!) pure as the driven snow, and I would never tell her about my issues (-despite the fact that I call myself ben durdayah al sheim that online -well you know what R' Elazar Ben Durdayah's claim to fame was... Let's just say that there isn't a sha'ar of the 50 sha'arei tum'ah that I did not cyber-experience.) That's just a matter of seichel! And yes, I can definitely agree that the culture shock for the women is something that has to be taken into account.

Yes, people have to be careful of whose advice they buy into -even on GYE. And maybe the moderators have to pay more careful attention to who's giving what kind of advice and to whom.

Yes, perhaps there should be a greater emphasis on the forum (and perhaps with guard's whole revamp of the site the connection between the resources on the forum and the blog site will be much clearer) on carefully diagnosing one's level of addiction as per the GYE program in a nutshell.

But if we will get into one of those never ending debates on what is really (IMHO) semantics (addict/ch"v not an addict; 12 steps/Yiddishkeit) and marketing strategy -we will be talking at each other instead of to each other; and we will be beating a dead horse and hockin' a toite ferd'l.

Because many of these tainos are just the same old, "See, I've been saying this for the longest time...", and "Me too!", and "Nu Uhh -that's totally narrow mindedness medaber mitoch groincha..."

I told myself that I wasn't going to throw my two cents in, but I could barely hold myself back.

After all, I'm no tzaddik -just an addict sicko weirdo (does that sound familiar? dov, rebbe reb ber -You are missed by all).

Good night,

E

PS I see that some of the points in the post might have been addressed, but it took me too long to write, and it will take me too long to read the 4 new posts and take them into account -so I left it as is, v'itchem ha'slichah.

MovingUp wrote on 15 Mar 2011 22:57:


I agree. I had plans this week to try and come up with a more updated "Welcoming Package" that includes mainly the Nutshell - but I am so buys with the web development lately that I haven't gotten to it yet. Maybe tomorrow bl"n.

Meanwhile, if anyone welcomes newcomers, try and give him a link to this file.

www.guardureyes.com/GUE/PDFs/Newsletter01/GYE%20in%20a%20Nutshell%202011.pdf