davidt wrote on 01 Jan 2024 18:07:

The teacher turned to the class and said, "So, kids, what do we learn from here?"
Igor raised his hand and, when called upon, said, "Never attempt to quit porn and masturbation an addiction, for you might die."

tonydraw wrote on 01 Jan 2024 17:48:

You've jogged my memory..this is actually mentioned in the old GYE Handbook.

I'm really not sure whether this is still valid advice and I'll leave it to others here to opine on the specifics/effectiveness, but please see below: (page 24-25)

Tool #8 Cutting Down

If you've tried the steps above and you still find that the addiction is controlling you and causing frequent falls, it could be helpful to apply the battle-tactic of conquering and securing one territory at a time, instead of trying to conquer everything at once. As discussed in tool #1, our sages have said: "There is a small organ in a man, if one feeds it - it is hungry, if one starves it - it is satiated". This is a very important Yesod to keep in mind, and it shows how much our Sages understood the nature of this addiction. The more we cut down, and the more distance we put between ourselves and the addiction, the easier it gets. We can make ourselves red lines at first, and try to cut down as much as possible. If we would act out every day until now, we can try - for starters - to cut it down to only once every two days. If it used to be twice a week, we can try cutting it down to once a week. Or we can try making a strong resolution for a period of time, that besides for - say, one particular day of the week, we will not even consider acting out, no matter what. As we do this and learn to cut down more and more, we will find that "the less we feed it, the less we need it". This tactic also teaches us not to use the addiction as an "escape mechanism" anymore. Very often, the subconscious reason that we became addicted in the first place was that we began to use the addiction as a kind of "escape" from the harsh - or difficult-to-deal-with realities of life. We used the addiction to sooth ourselves and medicate our feelings. But once we start to draw red lines and cut down on these behaviors with hard work and determination, we force ourselves to no longer instinctively use the behaviors to "escape" into ourselves. This causes a gradual change in our thinking that ultimately makes it much easier to break free completely. 

Also, as we work on progressively cutting down, we build up our virtues. In the merit of saying "no" to ourselves thousands of times, Hashem will give us special divine assistance to ultimately find real freedom from the addiction. The Gemara says: "Habah letaher misaayen lo - He who comes to be purified, they help him", and Chazal also say: "Biderech she'adom rotzeh leilech molichin osoh - in the way a person wants to go, they lead him". Why does the Gemara speak always in plural form: "they help him", and "they lead him"? The Maharsha explains that every effort a person makes creates an angel. And when the army of angels gets large enough, it has the power to help one overcome all the obstacles and lead him to where he wants to go! Every time we say "no" to the addiction, a priceless coin is added to our spiritual bank. Even if and when we do end up falling, we do not lose what we had previously gained. When we have enough "spiritual coins" in our account, Hashem helps us to completely break free. (See Part 2 of this handbook for more on these important principles).

However, it is important to emphasize that these tactics will only be effective if our goal is to stop completely over time, by progressively cutting down more and more. But if we allow ourselves to become complacent by simply keeping our addiction "under control", we will remain addicted to these behaviors. And as we often end up learning later the hard way, addiction is a progressive disease. It doesn’t get better, only worse.

​END QUOTE 

hopefulposek wrote on 01 Jan 2024 15:14:

This Gemara is telling us exactly what it means to be a slave. Think about it, this person would rather be a slave because he gets some momentary pleasures. He is enslaved to his desires and he can't think about anything beyond this moment and real life accomplishments and enjoyments. 

A recovering addict once wrote that when his father began reciting the Haggadah at the Seder, and said, “Avadim hayinu (we were slaves),” he interrupted him. “Abba,” he said, “can you truthfully say that you were a slave? Your ancestors were slaves, but you don’t know what it means to be a slave. I can tell you what it is like to be a slave. All the years that I acted out, I had no freedom. I had to do whatever my addiction demanded. I did things that I never thought I was capable of doing, but I had no choice, no free will. I was the worst kind of slave.”

This is a precious insight. Slavery is not limited to a despotic Pharaoh or a slave owner. A person can lose his freedom and be a slave to himself, to his habits and negative character traits.  A person whose self-concept is dependent on what others think of him, or whose behavior is totally determined by what he thinks others want him to be, he, too, has no freedom. He is not free to do what he thinks is right and proper, but what others think is right and proper. Anytime one loses control of any aspect of one’s behavior, one is a slave.

Our goal is to work on being freed from slavery to bad desires. To be able to choose what is really good for us in the long run and not be blinded by momentary pleasures like the slave in Gittin 13a ...

yitzchokm wrote on 28 Dec 2023 17:49:

Very well said, R' Yitzchok! I'm very uncomfortable philosophically with these two sources on bechira as I can see how they can be very easily manipulated and misunderstood, and I'm not familiar and enough with other sources who might agree/disagree and which position is considered the haskafic "consensus" (because hashkafa is not a shmorgasbord where you can pluck any idea out of any sefer and just run with it). Either way, I'm woefully inequipped to even opine on this topic, so this is probably too much said...

true_self wrote on 28 Dec 2023 18:41:

I think you are actually agreeing, not disagreeing. Maybe he didn’t have bechira not to kill once he was high, but he had bechira not to take the drugs in the first place. 
similarly, the addiction may not be able to hold himself back from indulging, but he has the choice to go join AA (or GYE). 

yitzchokm wrote on 28 Dec 2023 17:49:

I disagree.

Powerlessness doesn't mean loss of bechirah.

Regarding the above quoted צדקת הצדיק and Rav Volbe, It is a machlokes, some say that a person can always be held accountable for his actions.
If a person killed someone under the influence of drugs will we say that he can not be held accountable because he had no bechirah when he pressed the trigger? I think every sane judge will convict him for first degree murder.

davidt wrote on 28 Dec 2023 15:14:

I also quoted this recently. It is important to note his last words אבל האדם עצמו א"י להעיד על עצמו בזה, כי אולי עדיין היה לו כח לכוף היצר [וכמו ששמעתי בזה מענין זמרי שטעה בזה]. In other words, a person has to always combat the Y"H and always do teshuva for the past and he can't use this argument of onas as a way of rationalizing his behavior. I pointed out an exception where someone was abused as a child and did things that were improper as a child and davidt also pointed out children who were exposed as a child that they are considered an onas. The actions of a child aren't considered deliberate.

Very often when people join GYE they feel that they are an onas. It is very normal for someone to feel that way when he sincerely tried everything and he really doesn't want to do it and yet he can't succeed. After being on GYE for a while, using all the tools on GYE and investing in this fight many such people have broken free.

For addicts it might be true that at some point they had no bechira but it would often be because of previous behavior where they did have bechira. I was never an addict but there are many slogans in AA that help in overcoming addiction, even after a person has reached a level where he has no bechira. The same is true for many people who already fell many times who aren't addicted.

As bright wrote, once a person starts fighting the Y"H, the question of whether he has bechira over his falls while he is fighting is irrelevant. I am adding that a person fighting is supposed to use the guilt and shame from his falls as a catalyst for growth and not as a means to beat himself up and give up. Saying that he has no bechira will impede growth. I myself used to think that I was forced to sin and GYE proved me wrong. Today I am a free man. The day will come when you will have succeeded in overcoming your struggles and the argument of not having bechira will be proven wrong.

The Battle of the Generation has a lot to say about bechira. I suggest that you read it regularly.

yehudam wrote on 27 Dec 2023 17:37:

Totally hear you. Its super frustrating. Yuve been through so much already and worked so hard! Every test you have IS specifically catered for your greatness. It is sometimes really, really tough for us to understand, but its true. Try the book the battle of the generation. Also, maybe try reaching out to the wonderful chevra here.

Hellooo, I'm a 25 and single let's just say life has been challenging I'm sure I'm not the only one, so let's start from when I was around 13 when my parents got divorced and I got exposed to p+m around 14/15 I finished school around 16 and went to israel when I was 17 I was smoking alot of weed, drinking and women etc fast forward a couple years went to the army for a year let's say that was a smack in the face for me, left the army went back to my old habits and to the point where I ended up in hospital in Har nof for a week and then in england for around a month and from there bh I made alot of progress with fitness and spirituality connecting to hashem on such unbelievable levels, like never in a million years would I have thought I would be where I am today bh I haven't smoked for around 5 years and been of the drinks for awhile so I manged to tag all my devices but there's just one device in my house which is not mine that isn't tagged which I keep falling every couple of months and I just don't know what to do I've just come out of a 3/4month streak why do I keep running back to this disgusting habit which makes feel horrible and guilty I just want to get rid of it once and for all I guess the yetzer hara knows my weak spots and keeps hitting me so hard at my weak spots I just don't know what to do I want to move on already and get married and build a family but it's just addiction that's blocking from doing that
i just want to reach high levels of kedusha and an unbreakable connection with the one above but this monster keeps coming and stopping my paths and it brings so much darkness what should i do, weeks after week all good, month after month, all good and this monster keeps coming back when will it stop how much do I have to do, what do I need to why are thease tests so difficult, there not made for me.... nice to meet you all 

true_self wrote on 27 Dec 2023 13:29:

No and yes; it means that he was usin' his brain to convince him how he would feel good and what will be beneficial for him.

cordnoy wrote on 27 Dec 2023 01:12:

Does that mean that a addict make a logical decision to start their bad habit? or at least fools himself that he was logical? just wanna make sure I'm not misunderstanding.
Agree with the second part.

I understood eerie's point was that one should not follow a mentors advice blindly especially if he didn't disclose all details, and I think that's valid for a addict too.

eerie wrote on 26 Dec 2023 22:28:

Actually, for many of us who are slightly addicted, that is precisely what we should not  be doin', as the good Dr. wrote in the big book: Our thinkin' got us here, and our thinkin' is not goin' to fix us.

Welcome!

Stick around, try some methods and you will learn what works for you, what works for one is unhelpful for another. There's definitely a superiority with the 12 steps versus GYE as it is not anonymous and honest but is not necessary for everyone.

Dr. AJ Twerski defined addiction as any compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli despite adverse consequences, of course there are many levels in addiction.

Regarding the bechira, A man always has bechira. If someone would point a gun on you and threaten to shoot if you watch porn there's no doubt that you would have to power to hold, the problem is that the you don't view your consequences as a danger to life.

Ain hachi nami. It probably depends on your definition of addiction. I think anything that seems like a 'need' and almost out of the realm of bechira is to me an addiction. 
Derech agav, where do people see bechira in all this? Mistama we all have bechira at all times, yet it sometimes feels like it's not shayich.

That is incredible. The pain that you must have been in. If you replace the word "porn for "drugs", your story would have sounded like the typical drug addict on the street.  I can picture walking down the steps to the Hotel after a night of filth. It must have been awful. 

Maybe I will write my version of my "worst" times to document it and to look back and reflect on at some point. Unfortunately , my story is still being written. 

Amazing Post! You should be very proud of yourself. I sure am proud of you!