There's two kinds of insanity most of us are familiar with. The first is 'ain adam over avairah ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus', and the second is "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results". I can only speak for myself, but I feel that in this struggle both definitions come into play. The first is pretty obvious, the watching/doing/acting out. The second is when I decide to stop. I'll make a decision to stop, but don't put any changes in place, basically doing the same thing as before but expecting a different outcome. I need to actually make a plan this time, to do something different if I want different results. I plan on making sure to text someone every morning to give a report (the nights are the time I have the most urges and free time), and also pick up where i left off with the battle of the generation. 
On a separate note, I was talking to someone yesterday about this struggle, and he mentioned the idea I've heard before about how porn is the solution, not the problem, meaning that it's a coping mechanism we use to avoid problems. And the concept of if you deal with the real problem the porn problem will go away. The problem with that (for me) is that previously I wasn't happy with the yeshiva i was in, and just generally miserable all around, so that made sense. But now I'm in a different yeshiva, and things are going well, B"H. So whether you want to call it an addiction or you want to say its "avar vshana nase imo keheter" (if you do an aveirah often it becomes permitted in your eyes), either way I thinks that's currently the problem. Plus there's the 'feel good' effect of it.
Anyhow, I'm going to try to stop in over here again at least once a day, I feel like that's been helpful for me, and I'll keep everyone posted.

Hey, here's a warm hand.
There is hope - so many guys like you have broken free. 

Connection has been said to be the opposite and antidote for addiction. 
Stay in touch here. Post, connect. And then more importantly, reach out to some of the great folks here. A conversation and connection can be the key to finding a door open where you thought was only a brick wall.... 

I wish you my best. Stay in touch, friend

Chaim Oigen

chaimoigen wrote on 06 Jun 2024 22:21:

Props for starting a paragraph with "But also". Bold and flavorful.
Great article, and great explanation of the article. 

I like amavekesh's categorization above, and let's assume this article is talking about anyone short of the true, desperate addict. Someone who's stepping out of shul on Rosh Hashana to masturbate in the bathroom is not suffering from an entertainment mindset. He's suffering from a lust sickness.
[This is pure ploppling since I don't know anything about treating addiction: Now, will even that guy benefit from living life actively? Sure. It's a healthy thing. It'll make the rest of his day better, and it might on occasion help him hold back. But he's gotta be aware of the problem is, and the problem is not an entertainment mindset. That might [i]also[/i] be a problem he has, but it's not why he's doing what he's doing.
But to contradict myself, also see my heroin response above. For all I know, getting involved in living life actively can be a cure for addiction.]

For everyone short of that level:

For sure when setting gedarim, you have to be self aware and honest about where the effective place for the geder is - even if that cuts off things that are pleasurable, muttar, and okay for most of the world. So the dance on the precipice point is well taken. But point 1 in the article, that aimless browsing easily leads to looking at triggering things and sliding into a fall, was not the chiddush of the article.

And the chiddush of the article is also not that staying busy and productive = not falling. That's well known and agreed to already. Nor is the chiddush that developing a deeper relationship with Hashem and actively relating to Him and His torah will help keep you clean. That's also agreed to.

The nekuda of the article that's a chiddush is that enjoying passive entertainment ever is a mindset that is more susceptible to falling into pornography (even at times when the person is not engaging in entertainment). I think that's a great point for people struggling with a certain flavor of the struggle (likely the most common flavor).

chosemyshem wrote on 06 Jun 2024 17:08:

Your point is well taken. Spot on. I should have chosen different words. Allow to clarify my point. What I meant when I wrote  "Someone that’s mired in lust, may be tempted to write it off as a lofty ideal for people that are active pursuing their עבודת ה' in a serious way." was the following. 

There are endless types of strugglers. I don't want to be guilty of over generalizing, but perhaps we can group them in to 3. We have the addict, which has many shades and versions. Then there's someone who's not quite addicted, but he's "mired in lust". The lust stems from within, he feels almost compelled to act out.  And finally we have the guys who's primary struggle is a result of a certain emptiness in his life. He's lacking a sense of purpose, which leaves him with a blah feeling and therefore he's looking to fill that void with stimulation. (Obviously, if he repeats it to many times, the lust will take on a life of its own and not just stem from the blah feeling.) True, someone already mired in lust may not be able to break free with the above advice, he needs more that, I stand corrected. And I would never say or think that such a person doesn't take his Avodas Hashem seriously. He can work very very hard and be passionate about his Avodah, and still have a difficult time breaking free. The comment I made (but failed to clarify)  was directed at the 3rd group.

My point was predicated on R' CO's point. The RY was using examples of people that were driven by their Avodas Hashem that wouldn't allow for posture of pornography. I was trying to point out, that even for people (in this third category where the lust stem from curiosity, boredom, and an empty void) that don't have that drive in their Avodas Hashem, they don't have the love for Ruchnius that can fill them with a sense of "not needing to be stimulated and entertained", they can still fill their void with other pursuits that they're passionate about in order to avoid posturing. Hope this clarified. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

CHoosy,
First of, I dont like your new avatar, I dont like it one bit. It looks too much like the devil (I bumped into him once or twice)
Regarding the Ikkar and Tofel question- Its very hard to answer that, so ill answer. 

Our brain has a chemical called "Dopamine" its  a neurotransmitter and hormone it acts on areas of the brain to give you feelings of pleasure, satisfaction and motivation. 
Most people have normal Dopamine levels and they feel fine, they ae not so susceptible to addiction. 

However, some people, especially people with ADHD and similar conditions, do not have a normal level of Dopamine, that has a lot of different effects on the mind and body like focus and mood and energy, etc. Im not getting into that. 
Most people with healthy brains will not get addicted so fast to most things.
However, when people, be in regular healthy and especially people with the conditions i mentioned, get exposed to something that gives you an insane amount of Dopamine like sex, porn, etc. or drugs and that sort of stuff, the brain gets hooked very fast and very strong.  

Some people get more pleasure by looking, thier touch senses are not so hightended, some people get more pleasure by smelling, everyone has different amounts of pleasure he gets from different senses, feel, sight, smell, hearing, etc. 
So it might be that you actually get more pleasure by looking and then get overwhelmed into doing. 
Or maybe you just want the dopamine rush and you subcounsicly look for that hit untill you find it. 

I dont see a difference. The only thing is that Porn is much easier to keep locked away and filtered than your pants........


Stay strong 

amevakesh wrote on 06 Jun 2024 16:27:

Great piece. That outfielder metaphor is excellent. Fantastic life advice.

Just to clarify the bolded part above. My point was not in any way that someone mired in lust might think getting rid of all entertainment is daunting. My point was that it won't help.* 

As we all see on this site, very frum people who are very careful about not engaging in entertainment, can be very mired in lust. [I do have a growing theory that people less involved with entertainment, culture, whatever you call it, are minorly less likely to have an issue with porn specifically. Whether because of lack of access, a different drawing of red lines, or some other reason, my hunch is that they are somewhat more likely to turn to other forms of lust (fantasies, phone sex, people sex, chatting, extreme street staring, masturbation without any visual stimulation etc.)  Very speculative theory.]

And on the other hand, people very involved in entertainment often have no lust problem (though at the end of the day, most video entertainment these days has some level of lo sasuru violation.)

Whether living life passionately and in an involved way can help addiction to is a question miles above my pay grade. There's a famous study that showed that among the extremely high amount of American soldiers in Vietnam who heavily abused heroin, only a very small percentage (1%) continued using on their return. (See here, here, and here.) One explanation is the radical change in lifestyle - going from the boredom of base back to jobs and families - curtailed the addiction. 

Whether entertainment can be reconciled with serious growth in avodas Hashem is also a question above my pay grade. If you want to see someone try to grapple with reconciling them in an almost sad way, see this article on Lehrhaus. Ploppling on GYE is basically my current sole form of entertainment as I desperately try to stay busy enough to avoid porn use. Do with that what you will.

*There's a connotation in the way you wrote this, that I'm sure was unintentional, that someone struggling with lust is not pursuing growing in avodas Hashem. This is of course not true.

amevakesh wrote on 06 Jun 2024 16:27:

Good enough to open your own thread ; Just dont know what you should name it....

Game Changing advice for the non addict. Thank you Reb Chaim for elucidating it so beautifully. This piece of advice was one of the main paradigm shifts that has helped me in my own journey. 

If I can add some of my own observations כיהודה ועוד לקרא. As choosmyshem just articulated, this approach can seem daunting to many. Someone that’s mired in lust, may be tempted to write it off as a lofty ideal for people that are active pursuing their עבודת ה' in a serious way. I think that the point of the essay is relevant to a far broader audience then that exclusive group of people that are climbing the ladder of רוחניות rung by rung.

Just like everything else in רוחניות, things are not black and white. Granted, the best antidote to the YH is Torah, Avodah etc. and when one makes these his lifelong goals, constantly striving for higher levels in עבודת ה', he will automatically, find that he’s “posturing” less, and living with a goal and purpose, more. But the point of the essay can be and should be adapted for the masses as well.

The point of the article is that when someone is living with a specific goal in mind, he’s busy actively pursuing it, and doesn’t need to be entertained as much. The satisfaction that’s derived from living a meaningful life even if not spiritual in nature, can replace the need to be stimulated when bored.

I once read a book where a reporter once asked MLB players what goes through their mind when they’re standing in the outfield. Most of them answered something along the lines of girls, sex, and money. Notice, that it didn’t don on the reporter to ask what they’re thinking about when they’re up to bat. He knew that when the player is in the batting box, there’s nothing on his mind other then keeping his eye on the ball, trying to figure out what type of pitch the pitcher is gonna throw next.
When your in the outfield, yes your playing the game, but your not actively experiencing it at every moment, so there’s time to let your mind wander and tune in from time to time when a fly ball comes your way.

There are people that live there lives like outfielders and people that are in the batters box all the time. Live your life passionately, not passively, find real goals, something that appeals to you and drives you. Lust is a condition that thrives in a vacuum. When your life is goal oriented, the vacuum gets smaller. Hopefully this will serve to mitigate the aching void of boredom that needs to be filled.

Obviously even this won’t really help someone that’s addicted, however for the non addicts, the advice Reb CO gave is priceless. Just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.

Here is my enduring to-do list.  Turns out while porn is the most devastating and antisocial "thing" or mine -  it is by no means my only thing.



food

porn

anger

exercise

procrastination

timewasting



I think these are all types of addictions. None of them are under control. 



I have over the years tried to track these items on a daily basis, with the overall result that I never actual go forward, but I always break even.



I know small changes over time give the best value, but I seem to undermine myself, one way or another.



Anyway, managed to do some exercise today and keep off the porn. Oh and , in good news I am not addicted to gambling so hurrah.







 

I am sorry about the pain and confusion. The real answer to this question, the one and only knows, and we little people will never be able to get the full picture of why this is happening to us.

On a side note, why do you consider yourself a loser by accepting it? Just the opposite, this realization was the best thing that happened to me. Once I accepted that I am addicted, I turned all my fighting gear towards this enemy, followed some of the courses here on GYE, and became a great WINNER!

Stay strong and keep on fighting!!

Welcome, my dear friend.

I know EXACTLY what you feel like.

I'm struggling with depression at the moment, and it sounds like you're not depression-free yourself.

From the little you shared with us so far, it sounds like there are MOUNTAINS of pain that you're carrying deep inside you for years and years. 

Guilt, shame, confusion, frustration, addiction, secrecy, grief, sorrow, relationship angst. That's a lot to deal with!

No wonder you feel numb about Hashem and ruchniyus. You're completely depleted, to the point of barely feeling anything. 

In my own life, I'm hoping that working on my depression and what's been causing it, will allow me to heal and be able to reconnect with Hashem and spirituality.

I'm doing so with the help of a good therapist. Have you been to therapy?

i think a lot of people here also were working on this for years with no progress, then at one point it just kind of starts really going. You talked about cuttign off media, I always thought that was impossible for me, never made any progress at all whatever i tried. I was so addicted i didnt bother with job training or learning to drive.  And now i've go for weeks or months without it, minus a few falls.
I  read once that lion tamers train the lions by letting them attack the whip. The lions think it's part of the tamer's body, and go right for it. When they see they can't hurt the whip, they give up. He's invincible. When all it would take is going at another angle.
You said you tried a bunch of tools. I dont really know what to suggest, but are these tools addressing the root of the problem? DO you feel liek you know where and why the slide down to a fall starts?  As for cutting out media, maybe the difficulty you are having now is connected to the withdrawl? idk.

Dear Oived, 

I am happy to hear that you are moving upward in your life. 

I am very happy to hear that you installed a filter on your phone. WOW just WOW! 

I dont know how long you have been drinking the sewar water thats called porn for, but i was deep in for years and untill i didnt filter everything to the tenth level i didnt have a moments peace. You will hear people say "Just filtering is not the solution" yes, but untill you filter everything you are always a minute away from falling and its very hard to fight something that you have been addicted to for so long.  
Once I filtered my stuff, i had more capacity to fight, you get a few more minutes to think. 

And yes, you can be completely clean. Nobody believes that when they start but the hundreds of people on here that have been clean for long stretches can testify that its possible, very possible. 



The name is Copter, Eli Copter

oivedelokim wrote on 03 Jun 2024 03:55:

Good for you seems like I owe you some Moola.....

Hi everyone, hope you are well.

A quick personal update:

I am starting to seriously move into the realm of Shidduchim, and that brought on a renewed sense of urgency to overcome my struggles with lust or at least begin to try. 

That being the case, today, after weeks of procrastination and dithering, I finally called up my filter company and reinstalled my iPhone filter. I am very proud of myself, and it’s not lost on me that the first night I will not be surfing the underbelly of the internet is the sefira of יסוד שביסוד….

That being said, I still have other things I need to patch up as far as visual stimulation goes. I hope to clear all that up within the next day or two, IYH. 

At this point in my life, being completely free of lust seems like an impossible goal. I have spent so long giving into my every sexual whim that the idea of simply suppressing those thoughts and impulses instead of giving in to them seems so unrealistic.

But then again, I’m posting here. I am participating in a community of people in this fight, many of whom seem to have been as (or more) “addicted” then I am. So who knows…

All the best,
OivedElokim