Awesome! You were moser nefesh for klal yisroel!!

A small thing is - GYE is not a perfect solution for everyone. I think young bachurom who are suffering from or addicted to p/m, but not exposed to the underbelly of the internet or whatever, maybe they need something more safe, less explicit about certain things, just like the BB forum is off-limits officially? In other words, if I knew a 15 year tmimusdike bachur was having an issue, but does not have unfiltered internet, I think I would not want to send him here. Makes sense?

Of course, for people who are fully exposed to the world's garbage, send him over to GYE, and the Rabanim should know about this crucial and powerful resource, for those people.

A'ight,

I want to suggest an idea for GYE that I believe some of you have been contemplating. 

I think many, many people who have gotten clean credit that to connecting with other members. The connections go from phone calls without sharing a name, all the way to in person meetings. Many people have called it the most important step to getting clean, no matter the level of the struggle. 

GYE doesn't currently really push that. There's the partner program, which is underused, unclear, and very hit or miss. There's Dov's phone call, which is not pushed, invitation only, and marketed as more of a step for people who are/may be addicts. 

So currently the way this is recommended is by people posting on other people's threads suggesting that they reach out to recognized members. Which is great. But perhaps it's possible to work personal connection as more official element of the GYE program. And that's important because 1) it's a very helpful tool and helpful tools should be in the GYE program, and more importantly 2) people are more likely to actual do it if it's presented as "part of the program" and not just a recommendation from some rando on the forums.

Here's a suggestion as to how to work it in. [I don't know if anyone is familiar with Miriam Adahan's EMETT program, but this is loosely based on that concept and Dov's call.]

GYE should institute a vaad system. The broad outline is like this. Small groups of members would get together on a conference call for perhaps 45 minutes a week to study a text together, share about their application of the text, and schmooze a little. The groups would be moderated by a member, but the moderator is not a teacher. That's it. 

Here are some of the details I've been thinking about.

Who would join: A big thing is safety. Members need to feel that they are sharing safely, and there needs to be some screening to ensure there's no predator joining a group. To that end, I think joining a vaad would be predicated on completing the F2F program, and perhaps a minimum forum post count. Ideally, it should also require the member to do an inventory and share it with the group moderator, but that may be too hard for many people. Groups should either be with all members using their real name, or no members using their real name (individual groups could maybe make that decision on their own).
Members could be on any level of the struggle. I'm not sure if it would make sense to segregate people out by age, area of struggle, marital status etc.? 
Ideally, groups would be small (5-7 people) so everyone has a chance to talk in a short meeting. Also, large groups of people on a conference call gets very confusing very fast. New people could be added one by one to existing groups, or could form new groups. It would probably make sense for groups to be arranged by a central coordinator, because if they are self-arranged, many people would not work up the gumption to form or join a group. That being said, it's essential people feel comfortable in the group, so there should at least be an option to choose your own group.

The text: What the groups study and apply is actually less important than the actual connection and discussion. They could study the battle of the generation, a mussar sefer, the gye handbook or whatever. That being said, it would be amazing if we could find/put together a book specifically for the vaad (some excerpts from TBOTG, some of the white book, some classic posts, whatever. Just a thought).

The leader: The leader does not need to be someone experienced. They're there just to keep the group on track. More of a gabbai than a leader. Ideally, they would be established, clean members. Even better, they would get a little training on how to identify someone who needs a recommendation to SA or therapy or whatever.

Meeting schedule: A basic meeting would be a few minutes of reading and discussing the text. Following that every member would share something (a success, failure, struggle, whatever. Not generic advice or commentary). No advice should be given unless specifically requested - the goal is connection, not problem solving. Certainly no criticism should be dished out, however, praise is great. That's it. Short, sweet, and simple. 

Some other points. Because it's individual small groups there's room for personalization. Groups could pick specific texts, times, even choose to be in person. The general format of connecting is the ikkar. Also, because it's a "mussar vaad", it doesn't have the stigma of SA and people will be less deterred from joining (e.g. there's no way I personally could tell my wife I'm going to an SA meeting, but I could tell her I joined a new mussar vaad that I want to do in private.) And again, if it becomes part of the official "GYE program" people are more likely to join it. I think that it took me a very long time to pick up the phone and call someone. And if there had been an official program to do so, I would have likely done so a lot faster. And while people are embarrassed to share honestly, once you're on a call with 5 other guys sharing honestly it'll seem a lot less intimidating.

So what does the oilam think? Good idea? Bad idea? Would you join if you were a new (or old) member? Any suggestions, comments, tweaks, or critical comments?

ShtettlMan wrote on 21 Jun 2024 14:28:

Ya know what, since this is my thread Imma run with this. Disclaimer: everything below can be safely ignored.

That bolded line is real, true emes. Let me break it down.

It is very weird to see frum people struggle with this. Because we're doing weird stuff, man. Is it freaking normal that when I'm stressed at work I soothe myself by watching naked women jump around? Is it normal for someone to not be able to go more than a few days without having sex with himself? Is it normal for someone to compulsively eye-grope every single woman he sees? No. It's weird. We wouldn't do it in front of our wives, we wouldn't do it in front of our family, we wouldn't do it in front of our friends (hopefully). It's a dirty little secret we hide because it's just so weird.
It's not weird because we're frum. You think it's normal behavior for any person to plan when he's going to be alone at home so he can fress on porn? No. It's just weird. (Inspired by Dov. Note that non-addicts are probably slightly less weird about it.)

It's frightening.
Why is it frightening? You're scared of other people watching porn? They ain't gonna hurt you.
I'll take a stab at why you think it's frightening. It's scary for two reasons. The main reason is because until now you yourself were not in pain from this little "struggle." Maybe you were in religious pain, that you think you are doing something assur and you want to stop. But you weren't in pain. Now you see that this road you're walking on leads to pain. Real pain, pain you feel in every limb of your body. And that's scary. That's really frightening. 
The other reason it's frightening goes back to it being frum people on here. There's a realization that the facade of frum society is just a facade. That people with long beards and frock coats leave their gemara at the end of a seder, and before going home to be mechanech their heilege kinder, take a quick pit stop in the yeshiva bathroom to masturbate. Or after a lichtege shabbos that chashuve bal habos tells his wife he's going to learn but goes to meet his mistress. 
This specific sin we somehow view as worse than other sins. And it's so secret and dirty and prevalent. That realization rips at the foundations of what we've believed Judaism is. 
(I think this is a mistaken feeling. But a natural one). 

And it makes you feel normal.
This is good and bad. It's good because you should not feel dirty and unnatural. Because you're not. You're an normal person, and Hashem likes you. This is a chiddush because before coming to GYE you felt like dirt. 
It's bad because the stuff we're doing is not normal. It's weird. And it's easy to justify because the world is wallowing in it now. So it's important to remember that it is not normal. 

PaulONeill21 wrote on 20 Jun 2024 07:09:

Shalom Paul and welcome!

One is permitted to commit a smaller issur in order to avoid their own guaranteed bigger issur (eg remove dough from an oven on Shabbos (that they put there) so at least it doesn't bake into bread CV). I don't know if this counts here - as it's not guaranteed (perhaps with the exception of real addicts that have mamash lost their bechira after a certain point). 

Regarding dealing with these urges, I know what you mean but I will defer to our chachamim. Feed it and it will grow hungrier. When you hold back the thoughts get worse. Try not to think about it and try not to not think about it either. Both will result in you thinking about it. Try to find something consistent to think about or do in these situations that will distract your mind from it completely. 

You already have the ability to refrain from the "worse" things, and IYH you will find a healthy and dependable way to continue to push off those without needing the minor issurim. My apologies if my assumption of "not that bad" meaning still an issur is incorrect.

Hatzlacha!

proudyungerman wrote on 19 Jun 2024 19:28:

Thank you for sharing the response. I hope this makes some change. Did he explain what other mehalchim they are using to solve the problems? Just a little bit of chizuk?

Which might not be the wrong mehalech the majority of the time. HHM posted about his mehalech in helping bochrim and it was basically that. I even happen to be listening to a mindblasting shuir from Dov on why frum people are more likely to suffer from sexual addiction. (Available on GYE right here) and in middle he taina's that just 'fessing up to a Rebbi is a powerful step for a bochur to get clean. 

But then there's two options. Either they don't know about the large minority of people who are not helped by just some chizuk. Or they know about them but are not helping them. Same thing for the majority of people who don't reach out. I almost wish they were not aware because then educating them to be aware would be pretty easy. But if they are aware and choosing to not help . . .

I am 48 years old and have been struggling with porn + masturbation for years.  I stopped smoking pot almost 6 months ago and since then my porn addiction has gotten much worse.  I stopped smoking weed because I lost my job due to the habit.  I am still not working and the job market in my industry is very difficult at the moment.  Due to feelings of depression due to my work situation, I have been periodically slipping (every 1 to 2 weeks). 

This has been causing many problems, both personal and professional.

Just wanted to put this out there and turn to the GYE family for support and assistance.  

Best wishes to everyone!

Number 1 is perfect internet filters bshleimus - no cutting corners.  There is no way around this, and it is stam basic halacha.  This is not chumras - this is a shulchan aruch yid’s basic stam requirement.  That’s step one.  I have struggled with the practical side of this for half a decade - I finally figured it out. If you struggle in this department on practically setting up working filters while still utilizing  internet  for what you need - then I can help there.  One thing to look forward to on this one is that besides keeping halacha and bringing mashiach (because it is known from real living tzaddikim today that turning away from all rishus on the internet brings mashiach) and hugely and massively elevating your kedusha instantly, you also get to separate and be poresh from all the terrible distractions that everyone is sickeningly addicted to their smart phones etc and social media - you get to be FREE from that also.

My relative/talmid gave me this rap below that details some pain that came at the hand of his Rebbi. The raw pain inherent in this really hit home with me…… 


I tried to get along with you, but you said something's wrong with you, It hurt but I stayed strong all through, and now I write this song for you.

I was holding on, scared that if you're gone, I can't be moving on, but now I know I'm wrong.

I thought you'd help me grow, it was just going slow, but until the final blow, I didn't know, that I stayed at status quo, cuz you were stepping on my toe, you kept me down below, you didn't let me go, while sitting on your throne, felt threatened l suppose, I am not a threat though, you have shown how low a man can go, now I know, you're not my friend you're a foe.

It took a lot of time, but now that I rewind, I see I was being blind, I thought you were being kind, and I'm just the kind of guy, who doesn't mind, getting put on the line, for a crime that wasn't mine, if I got a dime, for every time you reclined, mined through your mind, trying to find, a reason to whine, I'd be richer than the whole world combined, you think your refined, but if I had to define, the meaning of a swine, I'd sign your name on the line.

Now I know the facts, my heart was made of glass, I was thrown into the trash, all my hopes were dashed, I wasn't begging for cash, or to live in the past, just to enjoy life with my class, without getting harassed by your wrath, but alas you felt not getting bashed is way too much to ask.

You just wanted to holler, screaming like a monster, didn't even bother, asking if I'm wrong first, I tried to respond sure, with hope to make you calmer, but your wrath only got hotter, didn't want an answer, just to add more to my roster, I followed like a toddler, but you somehow went and conjured, till I became the monster, how the hell are you a father.

They said he's screaming out of love, you're above everyone, although it's kinda tough, you just gotta trust, that's what he does, but that's not what it was, I know that because, I hope you love your son, why wasn't he the one, it's clearly because, nobody does, the stuff that was done, to me if they have love.

When I finally had enough, I asked you to be the judge, I thought you'd say good luck, you said to hush, first begged me not to budge, which turned into a nudge, I suddenly felt rushed, and then "you can't leave cuz you're chucked", I blushed, I was crushed, you stuffed me down and flushed, but didn't want to bear a grudge, so I asked to keep in touch, maybe as a crutch, even once a month, but you said that's way too much.

I know it happened for a purpose, all those years of hurting, I really don't like cursing, but it was even worse than, my addiction to bourbon, I drank my pain till it burned and, sent me to the surgeon, I sure hope it was worth it, cuz I still carry the burden, I know I wasn't perfect, but I still didn't deserve it, claim you did me a service, I got nothing though I earned it, but now the thought has surfaced, I finally have learned this, I wasn't asking too much I was asking the wrong person.

siyatta wrote on 18 Jun 2024 19:46:

The longer I fight this fight, the more convinced I get that there are just times that are tougher and times that are easier. Of course, there are often subtle triggers (exposure to sights, life stresses, old patterns of actions, HALT situations) that could be working on us without us noticing. And if you can remove (or at least acknowledge) them it's helpful. But at the end of the day, there are just times that are harder for no apparent reason.

R' Dessler and R' Wolbe both have shticklach on this as a general spiritual phenomona. 


[Worth noting that for the "true addict" supposedly unless you resolve the addiction you can slap a band aid on top for a week, month, several months. But as soon as something rips the band aid off you're back (maybe not worse than where you were, but to the same place of unstoppable lust.)]

Disagree with the bolded part to some extent btw. Starving it is necessary, but not sufficient. 

Bennyh wrote on 18 Jun 2024 18:46:

Bennyh, how did you know I was actually typing this up as you paged me?

Mental telepathy? 

Here goes:

Dearest Friends,

I am approaching 365 days since I joined GYE.

Although I am not really in the headspace of writing or sharing much, I am pushing myself, because I think it is important to note these developments as I move along on this journey.

It would have been so nice to write about how unbelievably amazing these last 365 days have been. It would have been nice to write about how my relationship with Torah, mitzvos and learning has so dramatically improved.

It would have been nice to talk about how much closer I feel to Hashem, how much closer I feel to a life that is fulfilling and satisfying.

However, I cannot write anything like that. Nothing of the sort.

A year ago, I arrived to this website, completely beaten, bloody and battered by lust, porn, video chats and masturbation. They were constant, obsessive and intense. And it was really getting progressively worse. I do believe that I was fully addicted to it, much like one would be addicted to drugs.

I was, by the grace of G-D, able to kick the heavy stuff pretty much cold turkey, for I had hit my rock bottom. Without getting into graphic details of what that rock bottom was, I was indeed ready to let go of porn and masturbation and managed to stay away from those behaviors for most of this year. I did not feel like I was white knuckling at all, for the most part.

But the general guarding of my eyes was not really on my radar. Sometimes I had some nice periods of time during this year when I was “cleaner” in that sense of the word, but not much.

Towards the end of the year, I slowly slipped, more and more, until I fell completely. That was hard. It hurts. I wish I could be more. I wanted more. I wanted to have certain things behind me, as they appear to be for others, but they aren’t for me.

Sometimes, the lust is so very intense, especially after that first little slip, and it gets really hard to stop sliding after that. Other times, its calmer and easier.

My spirituality, my relationship to Hashem and His Torah, are still frozen in time. I thought I would be doing better, but it still hurts. I sometimes feel cynical, skeptical, doubtful, despondent and apathetic.

I know I’m sounding pretty morbid, so that is enough of that! I am not morbid. I am not giving up. I am not lost forever. Here are some of the absolutely amazing things that have happened over the past year:

Firstly, I have gained lots clarity and confidence that the path I have chosen is correct. I cannot share details publicly, but that means leaving behind a very different way of life, which was all encompassing and pervasive. I am no longer mentally enslaved.

I am free.

I am alive.

Another thing: I’ve been able to let go of a lot of toxic, negative emotions. I’ve tried to forgive without being forgiven, tried to love back without being loved. Tried to look at someone with compassion and sadness, rather than vindictive hatred. The anger that simmered on the front burner for a long while, has now found its way to a very far back burner. This has happened through a lot of prayer, meditation, and the tears and sometimes tough love of the friends I have made on this forum.

Lastly, although I have fallen, I need to tell myself about all the real progress I’ve made. From chronic, constant porn and masturbation, I’ve come to slip and dip into it minimally. From watching mostly soft-core movies, I’ve gone to watching light, happy stuff for the most part. From listening to secular music without a cheshbon, I’ve learned to proudly set myself some red lines.

And last, but certainly not least…I’ve made some very dear, amazing and close friends here this past year. Y’all know who you are, and I want you to know, how I appreciate you all so very much. I would not be where I am today without each and every one of you. Thank you.

You’ll never know how much it means to me…

I look forward to the future with hope, that this progress will lead to more. A more spiritual life and a cleaner life. As long as I am alive, there is hope. I really do believe that Hashem is with me, every step of the way.

Signing off for now,

-YKW

Good stuff. 

Two points: 
1. Part of what you’re saying reminds me of some of Dov’s posts about how “unmanageable” means not being being able to enjoy list without getting out of control. Doesn’t have to come from being an addict. Can also come from habituation and having greased the pathway to perdition, as you’re sayin’

2. The good news is that It gets easier. The rewiring helps. After a while that inadvertently seen slightly triggering sight does no longer trigger an avalanche of uneasiness and crashing red waves of lust. after a while clean a lot of guys find that it gets an lot easier.
Will it be that way for you? I cannot promise but the amount of good guys who have recorded that selfsame experience on this site makes me think it’s highly likely. 

And that means that keeping your head down at all times isn’t a life sentence. 

I have recently been in situations that have previously been extremely triggering,  that bh now barely bother me. 

I hope it will be thy way for you, too, friend. 

I know a tzadik who lives in a very tznius place, who (I can almost guarantee) did not grow up with shmiras einayim addiction. He is careful how he walks around, even in his own community, and maybe walks around without glasses sometimes, even there. Because there are tznius women there on the street and he is healthy and has a yetzer hara to look. So based on that, you are quite normal. Awesome hero for going through the conversation and winning the battle with yourself!!!

Welcome. One of the beautiful things about this forum is that it's completely anonymous No one will know who you are unless you decide to share too many details that give away your identity to someone that knows one of those details about you. Writing your entire story can be therapeutic for you and help in the healing process. You don't need to worry about being judged, there are hundreds of stories here, and although each story is unique, there's more in common than that which separates them. You will find that the wonderful people here will be able to relate more than you can imagine, and they'll give you Chizuk that will will strengthen your resolve. Ultimately, when you get to know the people here, and you find someone who's thought process resonates within you, you might want to reach out to that person (at your discretion, and  at your own pace) by sending him a PM (Private Message). I remember the first time I reached out to someone, it was hard, I was afraid he would discover who I was and think less of me. When I first reached out to him, I preserved my anonymity. He didn't pressure me in any way to tell him my name and I did so only when I was ready. At GYE you're given the opportunity to share and care with others on these forums, and then you can make use of The most powerful tool for the non addict which is the ability to make real friends. Friends that you can open up to, and share your innermost secrets and fears, without being judged. For me this has made all the difference. Hatzlacha Rabbah on your journey.

It is anonymous. As long as you don't reveal identifying details about yourself. This forum is purposefully anonymous, so you can be comfortable sharing private or prematurely embarrassing things you would not share otherwise.

When relevant, you can connect with others in the forum, still keeping anonymity, like using a Google voice number. 

They say the opposite of addiction is connection... So it is great to connect with others here who can understand you, who have been through what you after going through.

Since the beginning of my journey here on GYE I've always had a dream of reaching out to some of my Rabbeim from Yeshiva and bring them into my world of this struggle, so they can see what I've gone through. The hope is to bring some awareness to the issue and facilitate help for some of the others who need it so desperately. 

So, with the guidance of a special GYE Rebbi/Mentor, I've been patient (not my strong point...), and finally have hit the right time.

Here goes...

לכבוד מו"ר ______ שליט"א,

My experiences over the last half a year or so are compelling me to reach out and share some very personal information. I am doing so because I feel there can be tremendous toeles in you knowing these details to be able to help. It is difficult to write this email, yet I am compelled by the thought that others will not have to suffer as I have. Obviously, I trust that you will safeguard the confidentiality of this email fully.

I have experienced growth in areas in which I have been challenged in a way that I want to share. For many years, dating back to eighth grade, I struggled in עניני קדושה. My struggles actually did not start with זרע לבטלה, rather it started with a friend of mine introducing me to phone sex lines. At the time I had no idea what it was, but the memory was there.

At the end of ninth grade I discovered זרע לבטלה and after that, it wasn't long until I was stuck in it, for most of my bochur years. At some point later, I don't recall exactly when (sometime during 11th grade probably) I "rediscovered" those wretched phone lines. I used them for years, just listening to the messages.

When I got married, I thought I was good. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case. Last year I started looking at inappropriate things on the computer at the Kollel where I am. (The filter was not at all up to par.) I reached out to R' ___, spoke to him and was more or less fine. Until this winter, when I started speaking to people on these lines. At that point I reached out for more serious help. I went for therapy, with limited results. The therapist was good, but....

Then I found a website called Guard Your Eyes (GYE). 
Here I was cured, I found the help I needed.
The incredible value of this website and community cannot be overestimated.

I want to try to explain what GYE is and how it helped me. (And many others.)

GYE is an organization which helps people who struggle with inappropriate sexual behaviors. Their website includes access to information, programs, mentors, guidance, and more. There are people on the site who have stories of challenges that range from less severe to mine to people who have been compulsively watching pornography, other negative behaviors, and even people involved in serious sexual addiction. Some members even suffered for decades!

One of my friends from the site spent many years as a bochur and yungerman using every spare second during bein hasedarim for pornography - and he was headed down the slippery slope to worse... Through the help he received on GYE he is completely clean for almost a year now, and has grown in every conceivable way! That's just one story...

For me, there were two crucial parts that helped me.

1. There's an anonymous forum where people can post their stories. I posted my story,  got tremendously helpful feedback, and got connected to mentors. These mentors are people who have been down the same road as me, while at the same time being Rabbaim, Menahalim, and Talmedei Chachamim מופלגים. They guided me through the steps necessary in order to reach true cleanliness from these behaviors. These were certain practical steps as well as certain ideas and outlooks that needed to be tweaked, changed, or simply discarded.
The guidance and hadracha of these special people has my changed my life, and enhanced my Avodas Hashem not only in סור מרע, but more so in עשה טוב. (There's a big focus on Shalom Bayis, too...)

2. The power of a real friend. There are a large number of people on GYE, a number of them like minded Bnei Torah who are trying to grow in their Avodas Hashem and are desperate for a way to defeat this terrible YH. I connected with a number of people (not all like me - some "regular" working people who are also desperate) who have been invaluable in helping me defeat this monster. I am in touch with some of these people almost daily.

BH I am currently clean for close to 6 months and I am a changed person. My marriage is incomparably better, my learning is light years ahead of where it was. I am now a greater, more healthy person than I was before, and with a real, true value for the person that I am; my struggles do not define me!

I guess the idea behind this letter is to raise awareness on two aspects of the issue.

1. There are a tremendous number of people in the "yeshiva community" who are suffering silently from a monstrous YH that they have no clue how to escape from. I have friends from R' ____, R' ____ (both of them learnt in ___ (yes, that yeshiva...)), _____, and I even met up with someone from (my yeshiva). If I had to guess, there are probably a number of bochurim currently in yeshiva who are struggling.

This YH spares no one - some of my mentors are a Menahel, a chashuve Rav, a Shoel U'meishiv - and there's more. Trust me, I am there! I am sure you know some of the people on the site.

2. There is actual help available! There are answers, and people have changed completely and become completely clean. Many people had gone to therapy that hadn't helped, whereas GYE did help. (My friend from above is one example.) 
I beg you, please don't underestimate the help that a person can get there!

I am putting myself through the extremely difficult experience of writing this letter for one reason. No one - not a bochur, yungerman, marbitz Torah, or a Baal Habayis - needs to go through the hell of struggling with these nisyonos, and the guilt and shame that come along with them alone! He should be able to get help. You are in the position to help advise such people - there are probably more than you know, even with all of your experience. 

Please look further into this and send those who are in need of help to this place where they can find help, community, growth and Yeshua.


I am happy to discuss more at any point.


                                                                                                    הכותב בדמע,
Proudyungerman
proudyungerman@gmail.com
406-219-8398