So here should be the slogan on the forum- "We love addicts!"

I still don't know if I was an addict. 
I do know that alot of addicts helped me get to where I am.  

If only GYE had a magical sorting hat.

I have to agree with Markz that I don't see the shaming or pushing usually- there was one pretty rough thread recently but I think that happened for other reasons- and I also agree that guarding your ego doesn't really work.

The only thing I could say is that perhaps there should be a disclaimer on the forum- there's real, raw, hardcore advice. Some of it you may find offensive so be careful.

But HHM, my point earlier is that addict or not is very non-scientific and you can be and whether you need or go to 12 step meetings isn't what defines it. 

If you define it not by SA's unmanagibility but by the more secular definition of engaging in a behavior that causes you distress but you can't stop, many people have some level of addiction.

My personal opinion- maybe the whole addiction thing is just different levels of habituation. I can't stop thinking certain things, I can't stop opening the fridge, I can't hold myself back from eating chicken nuggets if they're there-really, I can't- and I was so habituated to having a piece of cake with my coffee that I would stop by my office ten minutes out of the way on the way home from shacharis to get a piece of cake. 

So so was I addicted? Or habituated? Don't know; I stopped the cake but not the chicken nuggets, but I wouldn't drive for chicken nuggets.

The vast majority on the forums hide, lie, engage secretly, and have tons of shame. Don't know about a separate forum.

And just FYI, the most impactful thing that helped me if there was one was just reading that Markz watched his eyes and stopped. I copied him, not as well but I did. Even though I was an addict who went to 12 steps. 

Watson wrote on 19 Feb 2017 13:36:

In the final analysis there should be 4 websites, and my gestimated stats, how the current membership will be split and I'm not far off

1) GYE for Addicts by addicts. 40%
2) GYE for Addicts by non addicts. 10%
3) GYE for Non Addicts by truly non addicts. 15%
4) GYE for Non Addicts by addicts. 35%

THERE ARE MEMBERS I CAN LIST TO YOU THAT ARE CLEARLY WEBSITE #4. IF GYE IS SUPPOSED TO BE A PLAYGROUND WEBSITE LOVINGLY HELP GROUP 4 ON THE MERRYGOROUND CONTINUE MASTURBATING ETC... THEN I AGREE WE SHOULD MAKE A FEW MORE WEBSITES...

Hashem Help Me wrote on 19 Feb 2017 13:56:


It may help the 15% to have separate website, or it may not
It will DEFINITELY inhibit the 35% from recovering.

Markz wrote on 19 Feb 2017 13:04:

Could be i am misunderstanding your words, but it appears you are saying the other way doesnt work. If you read my post you would read about an individual who without all this is clean for 1,000 days and spends lots of time daily on the phone helping others like himself (and me) break free and keep from falling. He just told me about a bochur that he put in touch with Dov that was in very rotten shape and Dov told him he is not an addict and needs to straighten out his life. It is now approx 500 days later and the guy is clean. Please clarify if i misunderstood. Thank you.

Maybe i am missing something. Why does anyonecare if someone would like to have a forum that runs differently? If it helps people towards recovery, why should any of us get in the way?

I actually think non-addicts calling themselves addicts is a more serious problem.

Hashem Help Me wrote on 19 Feb 2017 05:12:

Feel comfortable falling and doing teshuvah constantly and no one giving positive input to really help me break free? 

A separate website should be created
GYE
guard your ego

You say there are people that



Please show me 1 instance of that. Email to me please markzgye@gmail.com
I have read virtually every post since I joined 1 1/2 years ago and cannot support your statement

Even if it was true what you claim, that guy that's intimidating, can easily be resolved by our admin or moderators. And not a reason for a separate website. 

Moreover, do you really believe there can't be intimidators on a "non addict" website?

I fully understand what Watson and Mayan have written and as i stated above i personally did not get scared away by the intimidation. I agree that everyone who contributes to the forums and takes out their time to assist others is a real "mezakeh es ho'rabim". That being said, a non addict should have a place where he feels comfortable reaching out for chizuk without being slammed. He may not be ready for the facing of reality yet. More importantly, he may not need it to the extent others do. Dov told me for example not to go to SA meetings.  He didnt feel i need them. My "unmanagability thermometer" wasnt at that level. Another example is a sponsor (who religiously goes to SA meetings) i met through the site who is an addict , who after getting to know me told me "the 12 steps are good for everyone, but a non addict like you should get close to Hashem through sifrei mussar and machshovo built on chazal and not through the 12 steps". So although i personally maybe from time to time wouldnt mind getting addict advice being that as you and i wrote, there is what to be gained from eveyone ( and specifically in the case of habit breaking, the addicts have loads of experience), i fully understand why GYE would like to make a forum area for people who they determine dont need the roughing up.

I do post constantly
I have not reached 90 days as of yet 
I do not consider myself an addict 
I do not want separate forums

I do not have more to add from what Markz and Watson and Gevurah have to sat but in my own words 
I have learnt alot about myself and how to think because of the addicts especially one in particular who gets alot of flack for his bluntness and is poorly understood but in my experience with him he is a wonderful example of being honest and straight to the point and will make the time to talk to anyone privately even when he has crazy things going on in his life (he actually emailed me to try and explain something I posted and is still trying)
I am very grateful to these people and would be very upset if this was taken away from me and others to the point that I would have a hard time not making Markz look tame 

Hashem Help Me wrote on 19 Feb 2017 05:12:

I completely understand.

Very often we get a newcomer who insists on doing it all his way - the same thing he's been doing for years and years unsuccessfully. So what should I as a longer-term member do? To keep stroking his ego ("you're doing amazing") tacitly encourages him to continue doing what doesn't work. To point out that what he's doing doesn't work makes him defensive and accuse me of the things you describe in your post.

BTW, I think it's a very touchy subject because of the moral judgement people hear, which is not surprising given most of our educational background. I don't see it as a moral judgement at all. Someone who's sober longer isn't a better person than someone who's not sober as long, much like someone in yeshiva gedolah isn't a better person than someone in yeshiva ketanah. But the shame and implied judgement is deeply ingrained in us.

The reason I understand your post so well is because I was on the receiving end of it. I came here as a non-addict trying to force myself to be sober using the same tools I came with. I insisted that I was not an addict and my life was perfectly manageable (except from staying up all hours watching porn so my new wife wouldn't catch me). It was the 'sarcastic and cynical' addicts here that slowly made me (despite my resentment towards them) face the reality that I needed to do the unthinkable for my recovery - to get out from behind my keyboard and get real. First I joined a GYE conference call, and later SA. Now I'm calmer, happier, healthier, a better husband and father, a better employee, etc. Those 'stuck-up, arrogant' people saved my life.

1) Regular forum poster 
I'm pretty regular (eating enough fiber helps)
2) Passed 90 days clean
Yes
3) And consider yourself a non addict
I think I'm somewhere borderline, I've been "clean" for a while but struggle daily with guarding eyes, fantasy etc. I've never "done" the steps but I think anyone can gain by learning about them and applying the principles even informally and alone. Self-acceptance, surrender, living ODAAT, building a connection with G-d, working on our character defects and so on.

I don't see the point of separate forums, we all have plenty to learn from each other. We can accept that we each have a different level of struggle and that there are different paths to growth. We can encourage each other and share what works for us, and give suggestions and advice in a spirit of caring. 

I was speaking with someone from GYE who has been extremely helpful to me and numerous others. He has BH passed over 1,000 days. He said Dov told him that most people (including this friend)are not addicts and they have to build up the resolve to fight their yetzer hora. He stopped posting on the forums because with the exception of Dov, he found that there were people "from the addict camp" who sarcastically, cynically, and as he says it, "in a very stuck up fashion", tried to intimidate others into submissively admitting they were addicts. Although I have seen what he is referring to, personally I don't care when people challenge my opinions in a rude or arrogant fashion. Besides which, everyone has what to offer, and we can learn from everyone even if we don't approve of their style. However, realize that many non addicts get turned off from the forums very fast and simply leave. They remain with the rest of the GYE site and BH recover using the other tools generously offered by this wonderful organization. With that in mind, GYE wants to set up forums where they will feel comfortable and not intimidated.

Ihavenostrength wrote on 19 Feb 2017 03:46:

The number 8 is quite significant. Every physical object has 6 sides - top, bottom, right, left, front, back. The number 7 is the completion of all physical things - thus Shabbos, or the 7 days of yom tov. However 8 has no connection to the physical realm - bris mila is on the 8th day. You have BH broken out of the orbit of the physical - iyh you will continue with much s'yata d'shmaya!