found this and saving here for easier finding for when needed...
a very interesting converstation between pentinant and REBBEREBER=DOV 

i added breaks to make this readable 


penitent wrote on 31 Dec, 2009:
I read a lot of the white paper re:SA. I do see myself in that and relate it to my own experiences. 
I do have a problem though with understanding all this "lust" etc. 
Maybe I look at myself and my relationship with my wife... I have all these thoughts in my head.... part of me wants to break down and cry, as so many times before. 

The gemara in Yoma 74: says in the name of R' Zeira "Tov mar'eh aynayim mehalach nafesh.. Tov mar'eh aynayim b'isha, yoter m'gufah shel ma'aseh" To look is always better than the actual deed. 

It's the musings we conjure up in our minds that is exciting. It's intersting to note that scientifically, the sympathetic system is responsible for arousal, erection, while the parasympathetic system-which calms us down- is responsible for ejaculation. 
 I always thought that the final Zing would be carried out by the system that is responsible for an excitatory response. In reality, you could say it's all over when that time arrives. Am I too deep? Anyone have any clue what I'm saying? Do I??? 

My original question is that chazal recognize human nature. To call it lust and label it a problem i.e. say I have a disease and to give me a cure seems extreme. Maybe I am in denial. See what I mean by thoughts in my head? 

Did chazal call that lust? maybe. but they stress controlling the yetzer. There is a book called Cheshbon Hanefesh which was written 150 years before Pavlov dogs, which really targets behavior modification. I recommend it highly. Chazal may tell us of Gedarim we should set but it's another thing to put it into practice.

REBBEREBER=DOV answwers in not -so-dovish 


quote=dov" link=topic=763.msg40619#msg40619 date=1262284223] 
Dear Penitent - 
 Yes, it is clear that the different nervous systems work that way, as I have shared with some people out of my own experience. I'll PM you something about that issue specifically. 

I love you. Period. So, please consider taking what I will share with you the way it is meant - not at all as criticism - only as a sharing of my experience with you. Besides, as "imtrying25" will tell you, I haven't had a rant in a while, so it's about time.... 

You ask about SA's use of the term "Lust". You are bringing up chazals to understand the term, rather than using examples from your own personal experience with your own problem. I'm all for chazal, but if we  are trying to uncover what is really going on within us, it would seem that being honest with ourselves is far more important than what a sefer says. 

If folks say this borders on apikorsus, then my response to them is that I'll gladly choose honesty in gehinom over dishonesty in Gan eden, any day. Why? Because the only thing that saved me from my personal gehinom in addiction - and it was gehinom (I need no chazal or sefer to tell me that) - was honesty. And in my case, I needed a chevra and a sponsor to help me do that. I found that in SA. 

Besides, chazal tell us that this world is an olam hafuch - those who are high here are are low there. To me that includes us when our frumkeit that is external - only in our brains, like Eisav's big head. Trust me, when we inject some shameless personal honesty into the mix, Torah becomes incredibly more powerful as a force in our lives. V'anavim yirshu aretz. The one's who seem low on the outside, are really high. Kapeesh? 
   
 On the other hand, being frummer did me no good, it was doomed to forever be a half-measure because - after all - I was the one defining and enacting the "frumkeit". It seems that you are in the same boat, otherwise why are you here?  ;D 

Do you get what I mean? 

What do chazal mean when they tell us: "Derech Eretz Kodmah L'Torah"? To me, this is exactly what they are talking about. 

Don't look to the Torah to save you when you are insane. How can you expect to succeed while you'll be the one applying and measuring it? The basis of all frumkeit is personal responsibility. 

Darf zeyn a mentch, ershtence. 

The yidden at Har Sinai had to be healed before they could accept the Torah, right? Yidden need to have some basic mental health - specifically self-honesty - to use Torah successfully as instructions for living. 
 Otherwise it's known, but not applied - hey! kind of like in our case, right? The GYE-er: a frum yid who just can't "get frum" in this area...drives us nuts, doesn't it? 

In fact, a total shoteh is totally patur from the mitzvos. We in addiction are not true shotim, only full of "ruach" shtus. We are not p'turim, but seem doomed to fail at it. This insanity is clearly discussed in all 12 step literature. If you want to talk about it more, I'll gladly share my insanity with you (that sounds funny, doesn't it?). 

So, I ask you (as chazal put it): how can a "chavush be matir himself from the beis ha'asurim"? Chazal inform us that he can't. And who is more of a chavush than an addict? No one, to me. Isn't the self-application of Torah exactly what all of us do for years and years until we make enough of a mess of things that we finally reach out for help, as you are? 
Keep reaching for help. It's here. 

Now, maybe we can talk about lust a bit..... 
  
 [/quote] 

ok now the truckdriver rebbe of woodford and bardstown kentucky come in to ekplain in plain english what REBBE REB BER=DOV is sayin 

take it away bards.... 


Pentinent 

I am a talmid of the RebbeRebBer=DOV 
Although I never spent a day in his yeshivah 

There is a language called Dovish 

You need to learn Dovish to "chapp" 
DOV 

I used to fight rebberebdov 
Why cause I was so "macho" I was armed to the teeth with 
 Chazal 
Courage 
Resolve 
Humor 
A mouth like a trucker 

I was convinced DOV was a crazy robot apikoress 

Pentinent 
Let's make cheshbon hanefesh together 

When we were in the thick of our taava 
Didn't we know all these chazals 
Didn't we have the courage 
Didn't we have all the machoness that a loser (sic) that dov is missing 

And and and 
We still had no control 

If anything we used some chazal(I did) to boost our YH 

Hello who is the apikores 
Me and my chazal or dov and his 12 steps 

Hey I am not a 12 stepper 

But we need to learn from dov 

As long as "I" fight the YH 
 "I" is in big trouble 

When I surrender 
I don't know ginoi(exactly) how dov taitches  surrender but bardichev thinks it means when we remove the "zhich" the stoopid monkey in the middle GAAVA 
From the equation 

I am again not a 12 stepper 

But what DOV says is when a man is clearly not a bar sechel we cannot use sichliyos first he must be a man 

Yes we can become a man again thru Torah 
By realizing that we are so helpless witout HKB"H 

Coming from a non-12 guy 

All dov is teaching us is what is pshat in the gemara "ilmalai HKB"H ozroi lo yachal loi" 

Hashem doesnot need our helP we need his and we need a lot of it 

I know I write a lot of jokes on the forum . I do it to cheer myself up and to cheer up people like DOV and everyone else .Simcha is my key weapon and DOV uses it 
If u look in the ohr hachaim in ekev he says a lot of what I say here 

I have a posotive spin that it is never too late to start living 
 I call it 
 Keep on trucking!! 

Jump on my truck!! 

DOV comes here too (sources say) 

W 
A 
T 
L 
I 
 T 
W 

Bards

You are getting close to the next challenge here is a gem and a blast from the past that might help us (some of it is not relevant but enjoy)

kutan wrote on 31 Dec 2009 18:28:

Singularity wrote on 02 May 2017 09:12:

Thanks for the share. Beautiful thought. A real goal for all of humanity. Imagine the stress free world we would live in if everyone attained that. Many of our gedolei Yisroel were real examples of that. Their awesome yishuv ha'daas was very much due to their deep belief that Hashem wanted them to focus only on what He wanted from them at that particular moment. By the ones i was zoche to meet, it was as if time stopped when speaking with them. It was as if they had nothing else on their minds at that moment.

A few points:

Friday night, after ping pong with the kids (switching beds, putting to sleep) all night, I felt I reached an even deeper level of surrender, that this is my tachlis right now. It brought a lot of serenity and the next day was wonderful.

Someone complimented me on my learning Saturday night and my first reaction was NOT to be overly-humble, but to say "BH He gave me a good mind, and I've put in lots and lots of effort, too". The honest humility is a non-trigger, and I like it.

At the SAA meeting last night, I resolved the word "should" is toxic to me. I try live in the reality of the now, and try consider any situation not as good or bad, but simply what is actually transpiring. Then I hope I can be unbiased in going into real issues. 
My addict lives in what should be right now. What I should be doing and how things should turn out. There is no should. There is just is.

cordnoy wrote on 01 May 2017 21:15:

So, 38 to the P and 38 to the M.

Wrong group, I know.

There is a bit of pressure to write somethin' profound (or, at least, it should make sense) for post # 10,000, especially after my dear friends Mark and Gevura threw down the gauntlet.

Truth be told, 10,000, like 90 or 38, is simply a number. Does it really represent somethin' epic? It means that I waste quite a bit of time, almost ten posts per day. Yes, perhaps there are several that helped myself and perhaps there are even a few where others were helped, but the bulk of them I'm sure were just some joke or wisecrack. There were even those that were hurtful as well. It just means that I have been here for a considerable amount of time and I have not yet gotten frustrated enough to leave for good (more on that later).

​But let us circle back to the beginnin' of this post, and contrary to most of my posts, this one will be lengthy: the Mincha thread, one that I am proud of. Why? Because it made a difference in my day and seemingly in others as well. I am an expert in selfishness. I have been doin' things for myself for decades. Always: what makes me happy. That's how I work. So the thread worked for me. Icin' on the cake was that it worked for others as well.

Recovery was different though. And perhaps it is worthy to repeat here the steps I took. You know that I don't spend much time thinkin' about addict vs. non-addict. I don't spend much time thinkin' about anythin' at all. It wasn't always like that. I came to this site by accident, of sorts. Yes, there were several decades of filth and smut in my days, but I always stopped, at least for a week or two, or more. Recovery and lack thereof did not consume my life. I was fine with the pattern. Of course, yamim noraim (mostly), I'd cry and beg and resolve to sin no longer. Some years I even threw in the towel and made a deal with God that I'll do lots of good in other areas and let's just hide this issue in the closet. 

But eventually, there was a rock bottom of sorts. That, together with a push, encouragement, threat of exposure from a woman friend of the family (whom I must have been tryin' to seduce) put me on a course of action. And that action wasn't a snap of the fingers. And it wasn't without heartache and pain. I went 90 days sober (so to speak). I engaged a long distance therapist, a professional who is recommended by GYE. I joined SA in a city an hour away from me. I was there for about eight months. I went to a local therapist/specialist on and off for about two years. I got two sponsors, one Jewish, one not. I joined calls and eventually led calls. I have been workin' the steps in some way or another for several years. I read the big book, white book, action book and 12&12. I am on my sixth cycle. And I post as well, every once in a while. 

Talkin' to live people really does wonders. Posts are different when I know the poster and they know me. It makes it more real. (This is an important point to know for anyone who spends time on the forum.) 

GYE gave me the opportunity to personally meet many fine fellows. I will list them, for I thank each and every one of them for their friendship, advice, suggestions, criticisms, etc. 
Pidaini
Lizhensk
Big moish
Gibbor (need more)
Skeptical (although we need a better meet)
DD
Unanumun
Laasos
Still going
Zemmy
Jake
Innastruggle
Lavi
Pischoshelmachat
Fresh start
RGT
Kilochalu
Misgaber
SB

I was within a hundred feet from:
Gevura
Guard
Shlomo

I have had private and personal conversation with:
Grow strong
TZ
Dov
Real simcha
Godhelp
OTR
tzomah
ShmielZ
Shteiger
Yesod
shemirashabris
Dms123456789
Yesod
Workin'guy
Laughin'man
Serenity
MoB
MarkZ
Yidtryin'harder
Chullent kin'
Trouble
Belmont
mesayin (I think)
ShmuliK
Boropark yid
Israel61320
Watson
Mggmbs
YosefTH
Appearance

I have been in touch with:
Yiraishamaim
Maayan
NIC
Aryeh
Hashivalisassonyishechaimisgabecha
Shivisi
PeloniAlmoni
DuvidChaim
Eli
Lifnei
Lomed
Shtiebel
SIB14628
Joe
Singularity
NewActin'
MendelZ
Shmeichel
MBJ

Now, what I just did is fairly dangerous (and I really need to look this over again, for it was done at several sittin's), because I probably left out a bunch of fellows, and I do apologize, but I wrote this list for two reasons: 1. I wanted to display and demonstrate the power of GYE; it creates lastin' friendships, friend who deeply care about one another. Four years ago, I knew none of these fellows and now we are best of friends. 2. Perhaps a couple of them I have helped on their journey, but one thing is certain - each and every one of them helped me on mine. I learned humility from one, commitment from another. Mussar, calmness, faith, prayer, carin', devotion, thoughtfulness, diligence, humor, assertiveness, resolve, confidence and more - are just some of the things that I try to apply in my daily life, and for that, they need to be mentioned. If I left you out, you know it was just an oversight and I sincerely apologize (and i will include in the edit- I am gettin' rushed to hit submit), but I truly thank you for helpin' out a punk like me.

And I must confess that when a fellow emails, calls, texts, WhatsApps, skypes, bumps into me and says, "Cords, you really saved my life, you truly helped me today, this past year would have been impossible without you, I didn't get that massage because of your text" yes, it feels good, and my ego makes it feel even better, but it's you guys who deserve the credit. You, who set me straight to begin with, you, who showed me my flaws, you, who convinced me of my egotistical, self-centeredness, you, who paved the way for me, and you as well who gave me the opportunity to give back, to keep me honest, to constantly share life's struggles and mine in particular, so thank you.

So, in conclusion:

There might be ten thousand reasons to let you all go
There might be ten thousand reasons to just quit the show
About ten thousand reasons

If I had a highway, I would stay in my truck
If the coffee wasn't bitter, we'd be all out of luck
But you're givin' me ten thousand reasons
Givin' me ten thousand reasons

I bow down to pray
I try to make the worst seem better
Lord, show me the way
To cut through all this worn out leather
I've got ten thousand reasons to walk away
But baby, I just need one good one to stay

Posters stuck in a cycle, they look off and stare
It's like they've stopped breathin', but completely aware
'Cause you're givin' me ten thousand reasons
Givin' me ten thousand reasons

And if by mistake I say something that iI might even mean
It's hard to even fathom which parts you should believe
'Cause you're givin' me ten thousand reasons
Givin' me ten thousand reasons

Baby I'm bleedin', bleedin'
Can't you give me what I'm needin', needin'
Every heartbreak and fall and sickness makes it hard to keep the faith
But baby, I just need one good one
Good one, good one, good one

Baby, I just need one good one to stay, to stay, to stay.

And that good one is you.
Yes, you.

Thank you MayanHamisgaber. I think you are right. I think I am finding it more difficult because there are other emotions at play that are completely ''normal" and healthy for a man, and very disconcerting and confusing for an addict. So I recognize that this time period is just a time period and once I get married some of these things will settle out. and life will start a new groove. I'm not saying marriage will cure anything. I don't beleive it will. (it's not needing an outlet that is just foolish talk) I'm saying that marriage provides a positive sexual/intimate experience. Like an eating disorder. you don't stop eating, but you learn how to eat. So too here I learn how to have sex in healthy and positive way. (not sure how to reconcile this with the fact that sexual abstinence is possible whereas food abstinence is death). [based on the mask in the mirror]

I have been having many more erections over the past few days than before. I think it is because secretly I am lusting about my kallah. The thoughts come up and I surrender them. But they come up again and again and again and again. Even with surrendering and davening, so I think a part of me is hanging onto them. B'H I haven't acted on any of them in terms of touching myself in anyway. Just adjusting my pants in public (descreetly) can be uncomforable to do. I remember when I started this streak I also had erection issues. And I just kept at it and kept working the recovery and at some point I wrote "the battle I feel is now above the belt" or something like that because at that point I think it was not an issue. But I think that I am slipping now that this has resurfaced. That's point 1.

Point 2, I was having a discussion with my mother (a trained psychologist, developmental psychologist, non-practicing) about what made me decide that my kallah was the one for me? I was answering. (I had some hesitancy when dating her because I was really working on this thing behind the scenes and it was draining me. Oh and I was sick for most of the first four months of dating her. Also, My recovery began a week or two before I was setup with her) She was pressing me about it (not in an invasive way, but it just seemed right to tell her) so I did. I told her the big archs of my story starting from when I began to how I've been working on it and my concerns and anxiety about actually getting married and not wanting to hurt my kallah or my family with my issue. It just all sort of came out. and to my surprise she was completely unfazed by it. She was very happy I told her and very supportive of me and she understood to a large degree what I was going through and how the p**n and fantasizing had messed with my view of women and lusting. I asked her if I should tell my kallah about it (obviously in the right way and not just blurting it out since that would be immensely hurtful to everyone and not be productive in the least). She said that I should keep doing what I am doing and keep myself busy. Also that I should not worry too much about it and definitely not tell her about it. She said that this is a new relationship between my kallah and I and that I don't have to shoot myself or the relationship in the foot before it even starts. Sex is new experience for both of us and that I should go into it with a clear mindset. What was was, and now its a new leaf. (she understands the crookedness of addicts: a smoker keeping two packs of cigarettes so he can show everyone he hasn't opened it). She said that I should give it a few years and see how it goes. And if I feel that it is out of control or I am having a lot of trouble with it then, then we can discuss it with her and move into seeing a therapist and take it to the next level. (I may ask her about seeing a therapist for a couple of sessions perhaps before the wedding. I don't even know if my schedule will allow for that, but I'll check it out and see) She said what I was doing was heroic and that I may not see it like that because I am so focused on the struggle of it to take a step back and realize the significance of what I am doing. I don't know how to end this paragraph elegantly so here is the end.

Thank you guys for being there for me, and I think some of this (point 1) may be related to my boatload of schoolwork I keep procrastinating about. So I will get on that as unpleasant as it may be and I know I'll feel better once I get something accomplished.

Hatzlacha and Keep it up!

 

Markz wrote on 30 Apr 2017 16:50:


I never saw this before
I can't submit a change on the first post...
I wanted to remove the members names mentioned, because I felt it may feel too pressuring on others if they see names listed, and stress is a bad thing.
Maybe a mod knows how to copy from this post to the 1st one?

Mod note: I could not edit there either any longer. Regardin' copy and paste, I know nothin'! Except what mark and gevura tell me, and only when they speak my language.

Markz wrote on 30 Apr 2017 16:50:


I have an apology to make

If we count the posts that were moderated by Cordnoy, the score is possibly closer to 20,000
Please please forgive my miscalculation

Time to party!!!!

Mazel Tov to Cordnoy our dearest friend on the forum on the occassion of virtually hitting 10G 10' Posts

The reason I'm excited, is primarily because I owe the man a debt of Gratitude for his assisting in my recovery virtually from day 1.
I appreciate each comment and even the 'thank you' of his, and more, and I'm certain many others feel the same for his seamanship directing soberization Odaat.

He shows us the lighthouse at the end of the tunnel with his FriendShip

He assists affirmed "addicted addicts", "addicts", "non addicts", "non addicted addicts", "addicted non addicts", and affirmed "non addicted non addicts" alike
Whether in venerable forum'ing, his emails, his texts, his group calls, his private calls, his in person meetings and more...

HOW TO PARTY?

I suggest 100 friends donate $100 for a total of $10,000 to Gye and 10% goes to...
Trouble is that the end of this sentence is being edited by some moderator, so check your email
If you didn't get one, email me markzgye@gmail.com

If you want to join this too, kindly reply on this thread with the $ amount and hey, $100 is only a suggestion 

GrowStrong wrote on 30 Apr 2017 06:19:

as a matter of fact they weren't. There was constant war then. But they handled it.

bardichev wrote on 06 May 2009 22:14:

I guess it was a lot easier in the old days to throw around the Addict word.
The oylam was a lot less sensitive

Baruch Hashem day 236!!! Thank you Hashem.

Okay, so a few things...

First, My previous post was once again trying to tie this issue to one particular (or a few) things. The three issues I posted about are all important. And a few of them might actually be related or part of recovery but they are NOT the solution. And working on them won't magically solve my problems. That's the first point. So they are not my single minded goals for the future, but rather important things that I shall keep in mind as I continue my journey in recovery.

(This week I was in HALT  which led to HALT. But I recognized it and will make an effort to get some sleep and find things to occupy my brain with.)

Second, I realized that I was slipping these past  week. Very slowly, but nonetheless. And I think that is what led to some of my posts previously. Now, that being said,  what I am calling a slip is miles ahead of where I was 236 days ago. So that is great. The slips were lusting, thinking too much about the wedding night (this comes and goes. I am trying to not beat myself up about it), and lapses in shemiras eynayim. With the latter, I did use the three second rule, but my mind was still seeking it out and I think I noticed more things then I would've otherwise. I did give up some hope during this slip and it took me a while to get out of it. (at least mostly). So this friday, when I was getting fed up with this stuff obsessing in my mind, it spilled over into a lot of little frustrations like why is my desk so messy, or why don't I have any room in my room. (little petty things, most of which were my fault at least indirectly). It was like a zit bursting. I realized that my lapse was just being resentful at Hashem for giving me this struggle. The funny thing is once I realized it it became much easier. I apologized to Hashem during mincha on friday for being resentful and for being angry at him. 

Then I realized that my relationship with Hashem was actually deepening. In general I think my relationship with Him has improved dramatically since beginning with GYE especially for the past 236 days, but this was even more. When I do something wrong, I do teshuva and ask Hashem to forgive me. This time, I apologized to Him like I would if I had hurt a person's feelings. Obviously I can't hurt Hashem's feelings, but the conversation was very real. and I realized that 1) my relationship with Him was deepening, 2) the fact that He keeps challenging me means that He cares about me. If he was indifferent, he would just let me be and not give me the opportunity to save myself, and reach my fullest potential.

Third, this week we had a lot of chizuk about seeing the good in life from the parshas. Not getting into it now, but that also gave me a big boost, especially since I was the one saying the divrei torah. As I was saying it I was thinking wow! this is great stuff and its 100% emes. (wasn't my torah. It was a dear rebbe of mines)

fourth, a friend of mine told me about a roommate he had who was suffering with SSA and was spending his days watching p**n. He had tried conversion therapy, or whatnot and it didn't work and basically, his addiction was to the point that he robbed my friend blind in the night and fled the country. (my friend figured out most of these details after the fact, so don't ask why he stayed roommates with him till this point). I thought, I might be sick, but b'H it hit me while I was still relatively on top.  

fifth, a kid at kiddush came over to me, and said he can't get it out of his mind. I asked him what he meant. He said that he was thinking about where he was going to live with his family when he gets older. He was thinking about it since I'm getting married, he was thinking about when he is married (he is like 9 years old) what he will do with his wife and kids. It was a bit strange, but he told me that he gets very excited about things when he hears them and can't wait till they come. (so much so that his mom, only told him his uncle was engaged the day before.) He's a normal kid. I remember when I was younger my grandparents would buy me a birthday present usually in advance of my birthday. They would take me to the store and I got to pick it out. But then the whole time before my birthday, I would be dying to get my present and wishing I could just have it early. Kids. People get so into something, that they want it and then when it comes they realize it wasn't all that they thought or it was exactly what they thought they just wasted precious energy NOW thinking about it when they could've been doing other things and deal with it when it comes.

Anyway, I've written a lot and it is late. I ordered a hardcopy of the GYE handbook so that I can read it more intensely. (I find that on the computer it's not the same). And I think that I need to just keep working on it and applying the skills that I have learned so far. Thank Hashem for all the goodness that I have and for helping me each step of the way. And try to find things to occupy my mind with (like my school work, learning, or a hobby) which I think will cut down on the shemiras eynayim and lusting issues. Also getting back to working out again. Been out of it since I've been sick. Each time I start up I get sick a few weeks later. IMY"H I won't get sick this time and be able to keep it up consistently.

Thank you chevra, and Hatzlacha with the Trucking.

Never give UP.

Day 78: Great line from Dov's Thursday call: "If you're feeling uninspired, just act out" (paraphrased). 

He also talked about how the addict's problem is living. About accepting G-d's will regarding the life he gave you and the people he put in it. Really needed to hear that. Really need to finish listening to the call.

Welcome. Best wishes for hatzlocha. Dont get bogged down with diagnosis of addict or not at this point. Just keep posting, keep reading, keep learning, and iyh you will get out of this mess. There is a big oilam here ready to help. Stay connected to the family.