I will share my personal experience here, not for any philosophical or honesty purpose, but simply because I have no one else's experiences to relate. 
I'll start my day by masturbating before I get out of bed. If I'm lucky, I'll still make it to shacharis on time, get to work, perhaps get some things done before I need to take a break. Maybe I'll go to the bathroom at work and masturbate to some beautiful fantasies I have. I'll squeak through the day, masturbate again at home, do some work, maybe learn a little, daven maariv, take a shower. I make sure not to masturbate in the shower, because it has already been several hours since my last release, and by this point, I'm gearing up to have the sex I so badly deserve (after all, I've been so good for the last 4 hours). I climb into bed and one of the following inevitably happens:
Wife is already sleeping
Wife is not feeling well/too tired for sex
Child(ren) start screaming as soon as I get into bed
My response may vary, but my natural, knee-jerk response would be to start gently waking up my wife, do "piyus," etc. Whatever it would take for me to get what I want/need. Would I even dream of actually raping her, forcing myself on her over her protests? Chas Veshalom.
But really, if she says she's not interested, or she implies that she's not interested and I persist and persist, is that really "piyus?" Or is it a depraved need to fulfill MY desires?
Although I believe myself to be someone AA calls "constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves," can I really look myself in the mirror and say that I'm insisting on sex for the betterment of the relationship? Do I really think that when all is said and done, my wife is going to sleeping thinking "I'm so glad I agreed to have relations with him in the end. It really made me feel better."? Or is she thinking "Now that I got that sex addict perv off me, and relatively quickly, I can finally get some sleep."?
I might be a sexaholic, perpetual luster and a pathological liar.
But I ain't stupid. I know when she really doesn't want it.

Thanks for continuing this conversation, would love to hear other points of view.

Workingguy wrote on 26 May 2017 14:33:

And I'm sorry but sometimes it depends on the subject. Here we have a fellow who has admittedly been lustin' and masturbatin' (in sin) for quite some time, and seemingly hasn't done too much productive work to get out of this sticky mess, and then he comes here sayin' that he wants sex with his wife seven or eight times a month (how did one even come to that number?) And this is on the "off day" of actin' out in the library, and he says that his wife doesn't want. Now, Mr. Workin', is he cajolin', or is he usin' her body (word changed by moderator) as a sperm bank?

AndAnd by the way, Mr nerdy, I was the same as you until I decided to get help. B'hatzlachah to you.

Day #37 ~ A Good Chodesh

B"H I passed day #36, what a journey, Today is #37.

I had a picture perfect clean yesterday! I feel B”H great, BUT, I won’t fool myself, I’m still an addict, and I need to be constantly fully aware of that. I’m still on top of the hill, one slip and booms.

Thank You Hashem, thanks for my great partner, and thanks to all of you.

today is #36, and today only, היום אם בקולו תשמעו, I will be on top of my soul, I'm not interested what happend in the past, and what it will happen in tomorrow or in 2 weeks, or 2 months... and the today is not that long, just a few hours, and Hashem, please stay on my 2 sides, please don't let me down, I want to stay clean, and help me and all Klal Yisroel stay clean.

Markz wrote on 25 May 2017 18:18:

Why is cajoling not kosher? I think that people on this site who are working toward recovery get way too carried away about generalizing in this specific instance. I remember one time that I was complaining to Dr. Sorotzkin about how awful it is to cajole, and he disagreed. He said that in a normal healthy relationships, it is not uncommon for women do you need cajoling and to be entirely happy with their intimate relationship with their husband. He also said that cajoling like that is not selfish.

i'm talking about in a healthy relationship and not an addict and one so it's obviously different. But in a healthy one, there are going to be times when her husband is interested, times when your wife is interested, times when they want to go to her parents for Shabbos, times when they want to go to his parents for Shabbos, times when she would love for him to come shopping with her, times and he would love her to watch a movie with him, and they will cajole and the other person will come along because they love their spouse and would like to make them happy.

I remember when we were learning Hilchos Nida, and it spoke about one of the rabbis who used to eat with his wife before she went to immerse because otherwise she wouldn't be in the mood. In fact, Dr. Sorotzkin said that Piyus- appeasement- if you read what the rabbis to say about it really seems to sometimes be cajoling.

that having been said, what Kourtni is saying is something else. When cajoling will just end up being a form of manipulation to get the other person to do what you want and it's not ultimately for the benefit of the relationship or in a manner that will make the other person feel loved, then of course you shouldn't do it. And there maybe there may be instances here on this site where what people do come close to marital rape, but I would actually venture that most of them are not even close to that.

The reason why am posting this is because I think it's important not to be overzealous and not get taken seriously when we paint everything in such broad terms.

nerdy wrote on 25 May 2017 18:03:

In your example, the heroin junkie is using the aspirin to "wean" himself off harder drugs. Whether or not that works is not my concern.
Many here (aka, me) are of the steadfast belief that you cannot "wean" yourself off of lust. If you are using your wife as a receptacle into which you can masturbate and deposit your sperm in a "kosher" way, that is the same as shooting up on heroin. Perhaps from a Torah perspective, it would be better to "masturbate" into your wife than into a tissue, tube sock, toilet, whatever, but from a lust habit/addiction/"drug" perspective, it is a delusional way of convincing ourselves that we can allow ourselves to continue our perverse habit of sexualizing women and requiring sexual release on demand (not to mention marital rape).

Hi Everyone, 

It's been a long time coming. I've been on GYE, I've left, I've been here, I've left. I've been in therapy for years. I'm married, with children, but I've been a serial sex addict (acting out in the worst of ways), probably a pot/internet addict for many years. I'm reading and working with a workbook that has been very helpful. If you'd like to know more about it, definitely let me know. But I'm here because it's time to change my life around, in a very big way. I've instituted certain lifestyle changes, and I'm committed to the extent of - whatever it takes! I have too much at stake here to fall short. I'm finally ready to take the next step and become the hero I'm meant to be. Wish me luck - one day at a time!

Day #36

B"H I passed day #35, what a journey, Today is #36.

I had a picture perfect clean yesterday! I feel B”H great, BUT, I won’t fool myself, I’m still an addict, and I need to be constantly fully aware of that. I’m still on top of the hill, one slip and booms.

Thank You Hashem, thanks for my great partner, and thanks to all of you.

today is #36, and today only, היום אם בקולו תשמעו, I will be on top of my soul, I'm not interested what happend in the past, and what it will happen in tomorrow or in 2 weeks, or 2 months... and the today is not that long, just a few hours, and Hashem, please stay on my 2 sides, please don't let me down, I want to stay clean, and help me and all Klal Yisroel stay clean.

Wow Markz! What a clever trick. Thanks for sharing. (and thank you Cordnoy for bringing it out)

Day 261!!!! Baruch Hashem!

The hirhurim are stronger than before, but I'm not letting them get me down. I have long since realized that no matter how aroused I am if I go do something else it will go away and I'll be fine. In fact i'll be GREAT! So they come they go. Putting it in perspective helps so much. And to be honest it only happened 3-7 times. I can live with that. So for a couple of minutes a day of discomfort I can not let it overwhelm the rest of my beautifully sober 24 hours  

Been working on emunah and (insert word for opposite of worry. calmness?) Making some good progress. I don't have to like the situation in life that I am in (being an addict), but I need to accept it, and work with the reality of it. I'm not a millionaire either yet that doesn't get me bent out of shape, life goes on. 

Thank you guys very much.



KOT!!!!
                    ________
---------------/                 \______<
|__/       \___________/        \__|
        O           O

Day #35 ~ 5 Weeks 

B"H I passed day #34, what a journey, Today is #35, 5 weeks, who would imagine that, after 30 years struggling, ill reach to 5 weeks clean, I feel B”H great, BUT, I won’t fool myself, I’m still an addict, and I need to be constantly fully aware of that. I’m still on top of the hill, one slip and booms.

I had a picture perfect clean yesterday! B”H

Thank You Hashem, thanks for my great partner, and thanks to all of you.

today is #35, and today only, היום אם בקולו תשמעו, I will be on top of my soul, I'm not interested what it will happen in tomorrow or in 2 weeks, or 2 months... and the today is not that long, just a few hours, and Hashem, please stay on my 2 sides, please don't let me down.

lionking wrote on 23 May 2017 23:20:

The guide is built in your genes, like your addiction, either your have it or you don't, sorry too late

Welcome, 

This is a very special place to have found, and I wish you much success in your journey. Good on your wife too for staying. I read an article on this site saying that wives who discovered their husbands addiction and both parties were willing to deal with it in a real way together had a much better outcome then other ways it could've gone. (if someone has the link to the full article that would be great.)

Best of luck,

Sherlock: "I needed to inject an element of darin' into my sobriety… remove the safety net…The daily business of stayin' sober - of goin' to meetin's with people not nearly my intellectual equal has become a bore. My mind rebels at stagnation. The process of recovery has become stagnant. So I have increased the level of difficulty in order to remain engaged. What I have not done, I assure you - is waver in my commitment - not one iota."

Watson: "You're arrogant."

Holmes: "I beg your pardon."

Watson: "Your problem is that you think that you're smarter than everyone else."

Holmes: "I am smarter than everyone else - demonstrably."

Joan: "I didn't say you weren't; you are. I said you think you are. You think that bein' smarter makes you different. Don't you think that other people get bored at meetin's too......Everyone gets bored at meetin's! It doesn't make you different; it makes you typical. But you know what the one's who stay sober do? They keep goin'!"

Sherlock (bein' stubborn): "Have you considered the possibility that I experience my boredom more acutely than others experience theirs? I've been relatin' to my sobriety like a tourist who visits the Grand Canyon, but doesn't go near the edge for fear of fallin' in."

Watson: "Yes, and that's how you stay sober."

Holmes: "It is also how you lull yourself into a torpor. If addiction is an abyss, shouldn't the addict tiptoe up to the edge once and a while? Stare down into the gorge."

Holmes (at a meetin'): "Hello, my name is Sherlock and I'm an addict."

Others: "Hello, Sherlock."

Holmes: "I'm also... I'm the cleverest person in the room. Now, I'm... I'm so much cleverer than my peers that I've come to believe I feel boredom more acutely than everybody else... which leads me to my recent quandary... arrogance. My own arrogance, you know, to be precise. And the possibility that that might be an Achilles' heel to my recovery."

Another random update from Shlomo: Over the past week or so, I've been realizing that I was holding back from sharing something. I felt that it was very shameful and even some of my closest friends in recovery didn't even know. I started sharing it at first with some people and I shared it at a meeting. I also shared it with all those in the inner circle of my recovery. This past Shabbos I went to a retreat for frum sex addicts. I knew that they were having a meeting there about shame and I planned to share this there. (I'm deliberately not saying what it is yet, don't worry, I'm going to say it soon). I told my sponsor I was going to share it there and I told some other recovery friends that I was going to share it at the meeting also. I even called the guy who was leading the meeting during the week and I shared it with him. Shortly before I was about to share what it was I was feeling incredibly anxious and nervous and I checked that in with my former Sponsor. Once the meeting started and they opened it up for sharing, I felt my heartbeat tick up and I was freaking out. But I shared it. The reason why I haven't said what it is yet is because I wanted you to see the process first and then to see what I shared. I think that if I shared it right away the process wouldn't have been brought out as well.

What I shared there, and what I'm sharing now (although not exactly, for my own discretion), is that all of my acting out was with men who were significantly older than me. There was one exception, and he was only like 4-5 years older than me (married though, he was actually at the retreat), but all of the others had to have been at least 15 years older than me. I had even had sex multiple times with a 50-year old guy. I also just had an experience about a month ago, it was not a loss of sobriety or anything close to that, but there was intimate contact. He is 38. I'm 21. I shared how ashamed I was that I am attracted to older men. I shared how I felt defective as a person, that there was something wrong with Shlomo for being attracted to older guys. I felt very different and terrible about myself. I have been doing a lot of work on acceptance, and I accept that my homosexuality is a part of me. Does it define me? No. Does it mean that I am going to pursue it? No. But it's a part of me. The shame was that I am genuinely attracted to older men, not that I acted out with older men. My disease can take me anywhere, and I know that. But this is a part of me that I have been learning to accept as a part of my personality, not just my disease. And that was very shameful. I barely made it through my share without losing my (ahem) but I felt like I wasn't being present with my feelings. I left the meeting and I grabbed my former Sponsor (who's actually my current best friend in a way) and I just broke down crying. For the next while (15 minutes or so, I would say) I was crying bitter tears. I had put up a wall that I wasn't going to share that with anyone and it was the only barrier between me and a huge dam of pain and shame. Once I removed that wall by telling others, the dam broke and so much of the shame came pouring out. I have never cried like I cried then. Sweat, snot, spit, I was a mess.

Eventually I calmed down and my friend asked me a question. He said "Shlomo, what is the shame about?" I said it was about being attracted to older guys. He said that he's heard much more shameful things than that at meetings. He repeated his question. I thought about it and I realized that the shame was really what I was saying before, that I am defective. That Shlomo is subhuman. That was a big step, realizing that the shame isn't really about the attraction, it's just the attraction is what connected me to the shame of feeling like I am defective. The core belief that I am wrong was where the shame was.

Then he asked me another question. He said "And what's wrong with being defective?" I was floored by that question. But then it hit me. There's nothing wrong with being defective. In fact, every single guy at that Shabbaton is also defective. We are all addicts, we all have something broken inside us that can never be fixed, only maintained. I understand it that I have a void inside me. Some people say that addicts have a "God-sized hole inside them." I have a void and I am always trying to fill it. For around 20 years, I was trying to fill it with unhealthy things. In recovery, I fill it with healthy things, such as God, spirituality, program, fellowship, service etc. But I can never avoid filling it. If I'm not filling my void with positive things I am filling it with negative things. That is my reality. If I don't work a program I will act out. And if I don't stop acting out, I will kill myself from my acting out, sooner or later. I do not have the ability to coast. I need to work my program on a daily basis. And that's not normal! Most people won't destroy themselves just because they aren't living a spiritual life. They may not be enjoying, and life may be boring, but they won't be bringing themselves to their deathbeds. But as a powerless addict, I will kill myself slowly if I am not acting spiritually. And that's ok. It's the way God made me. He made me an addict and he made millions of other people also addicts. And that's totally fine. 

This whole thought process took very short, it's longer in writing. But I basically went from feeling the most intense shame about being defective to feeling complete acceptance that I am defective in about 5 minutes or so. It was very surreal. I felt like I had joined the human race. I felt like I had no more secrets and nothing else was hiding. Whatever was inside me was outside me. I felt like I had climbed my Everest. For me, that was the hardest thing I had ever done and it was the most painful experience I had ever had in my life. But I came out so much stronger from it and I feel like a new person. And now I am much less ashamed to say that I am attracted to older men. It's ok! For whatever reason, that's a part of my personality makeup. I have accepted it.

There's more to say, but I have a final in 1 hour 20 minutes. I think my message was conveyed clear enough. It doesn't need to be perfect. 

hi guys its been a couple of days i'm doing pretty good bh still getting anxious no i did not find melatonin i forgot (sorry)
shlomo24 thanx for your share about SA i was actually planning on saying riboinoy shel oilam for i felt that its the truth and maybe also to prove a point but i now see it may bother someone so i'll stick to the rules.
i went to a second meeting i'm liking the meetings slowly working on first step i'm allowing myself to see more how much my addiction rules over me its enlightening. ilemolei Hakadosh Baruch Hu oizer loi AINOI YACHOL LOI

bear wrote on 21 May 2017 08:51:

Maybe the married bochrim...
Nice clear description of love addiction there though.