dms1234 wrote on 17 Aug 2017 04:28:

I think you made some great points. In paragraph 1 you talked about how without sobriety, how can one recover? I think that's brilliant.

I think there is another reason counting with an actual sobriety definition is important. If your definition is vague, especially if it's very broad, (unreasonably tough) you are setting yourself up for failure. If you have unrealistic ideas about what sobriety means you will destroy your ability to see progress, even where it exists. 

In paragraph 2, you spoke about step 1 as being even more important than counting. I think this is smart. For many people, counting and seeing many days of sobriety leads them to feel that they do have power over lust, and that their life is manageable ("Look I've been sober for 90 days"). So, always remembering your history and present reality of powerless is of supreme importance. 

("The word supreme is so cool, no wonder the Ayotollah of Iran chose it for his title")  

In your last paragraph you touched on the topic "do you lose your past gains after a fall".

Here's my two cents: From a Jewish perspective definitely not. You went X amount of time not doing aveiros. Maybe even got a mitzva of sur mera.

From a disease perspective probably not either. Would have been better to be acting out all this past time and feeding the addiction? No, right? So you gained something. You are better off for doing it. 

So I would say the following: I definitely lose something by acting out, but do I lose the past clean days? To say yes would be a bit ridiculous in my not so humble opinion. 

However, using this logic to abstain from taking action (especially when you see that what you're doing clearly ain't enough (you keep falling) probably won't be helpful. 

Peace

Just to pipe in: my first sponsor said that (this is directed for addicts) sobriety is very important for recovery and that i need to count my recovery and every meeting announce how much sobriety i have. (Before this, i was saying "about 2 weeks" etc) Because i cant really recover without sobriety. If i am filled up with lust then how am i supposed to be in the right headspace? How am i going to feel my feelings if i keep running away? So counting is important for me. So i can be grateful to God for keeping me sober! So i can keep moving in the right direction. So i can work the steps probably. Do i only count? Absolutely not. Its not even one of my real tools! But i do announce it at meetings. I dont usually concentrate on it so much as it is one day at a time but it still is important to remember once in a while. 

I will note that as much as it is important to remember my sobriety date, it is even more important to remember how powerless i am over lust and how unmanageable my life is. How i cant stop lusting, how it ruins my life. That is step 1 and that is the foundation of the program. 

(ps. I didn't ask my sponsor about does a person lose what he had before. I could argue both ways. But if this is truly a life or death disease to me then at some point it could be!) 

You need a sponsor to work the 12 steps properly! I would strongly advise getting a big book and white book (the SA book) that you can feel its pages, meaning the real books. You can order them online. (sa.org is the only place you can get a white book besides for any SA meetings.)

Hi Everyone. 

I used to go for a while to live SA groups,  but it never worked for me,and I am able to stay sober for 90 days by my own,my therapist does not think that I am a addict,  but I still wanna stay connected. 
Welcome 

Unknowngye wrote on 16 Aug 2017 14:30:

Email me and I can send it to you
markzgye@gmail.com

From what I hear, step dancing is better done with a partner ;-)

Also, thank you reb Guard. 

So for me to understand, how do I work the 12 steps properly? What do I need? Where can I get the Big Book (or whatever the SA book is called)? I am currently reading the GYE handbook 

hi guys
i think gehinnom will be being married to a woman you truly love in active addiction. i don't know what's worse that or a fiery pit.
I'm in a bad mood (sort of) i am in middle of a massive binge i found a loophole in my computer filter and i can now watch real porn not little pictures on a camera. and i get up in middle of the night and watch (during the day its too risky even when i'm home alone for whatever reason).
I've decided this morning that I want (still need to run it by my sponsor) to add TaPHSiC to my program. the reason is simple when i'm on the Forum or at a meeting i have all the willingness i need to go and surrender my lust. however on the battlefield (i.e. in middle of the night etc.) i lose some of my resolve so if i add a TaPHSiC it won't stop me from acting out (I'm powerless) but it WILL (hopefully) push me to surrender
have an awesome clean day

Agree with Markz.

In general, lust is the symptom of other and deeper problems, it is not the problem itself.
As you found it.

A therapy can help to find these problems, the root of all the problems, and to find how to manage them.
The most difficult is to find a good therapist for you. 
I think a therapist specialized in addictions will be better to understand your problems.

Keep hope ! There is always an escape, it is in the most difficult moments that Hashem nearer you

I am only expressing my experience. Of what has helped me and what hasn't. I could comment but i prefer not to right now. But i agree talking never helped me, only action does and the 12 steps are working for me. I tried the religious approach and didnt work for me to help me in this disease. I still keep shabbos, learn and im still frum. 

Perhaps Torah will help for some though. Perhaps the 12 steps will help too!

Hello guys Im Dan.. English is not my first language so i apologize in advance for any errors.

Im a married 32 years old guy who has been in this slavery since i was 11.. i didnt know the magnitude of my problem until a couple of years ago when i found out this was a decease/addiction, and it took me until a year ago to know that i cant help myself because im an addict to pornography and acting out.. Ive been in this road for a long time and I dont really know if i want to be free of this.. One part of me wants so bad to just STOP and start living my life, become a giver instead of a selfish taker.. but the other part you know.. just want to keep doing what ive been doing all my life, this "sweet sweet candy" that destroys me and my family and everything around...
I need help guys, this is the first time i use the forum, and im doing it because GOOOOD I Want to be free of this!!.. I know i cant do it alone so, here i am. Asking Hashem for help and you guys to help me break free of this.. I guess i need to keep in touch and stay of isolation and try whatever i havent tried, and thats what im trying to do. I put my name in the 90 days chart but that number: 90??? it seems like impossible for me when i cant do it even for 15 days.. but i know that I can, I know Hashem CAN do it for me.
i want to join some kind of group, would be good if theres a whatsapp group where we could encourage each other every often.. or you tell me! youre the experts here so.. Thank you in advance guys, May Hashem keep blessing and helping you all!

I have a few comments:

You mix words of chazal into your tirade, but Torah can't help.

God looked into the Torah and created the world. Torah is the world and Torah is the remedy. Now, Torah is vast, so one might not know which Torah to learn. "Oh, but I learned six pages in shnayim ochazin with the art scroll and I still masturbated; must be Torah is not the answer." Swell logic there.

"Lust is not a religious battle; it's derech eretz, and that preceded the Torah." Firstly, what does it even mean? Secondly, doesn't one fix derech eretz with mussar? Once again, there are many mussar seforim on the shelves.

All these slogans. " Let God do the dirty work while I connect with other lustaholics." Perhaps...."Let God do the dirty work while I go and pray." "Let God do the dirty work while I visit the sick or bury the dead."

Sometimes, all this mumbo jumbo talk gets to me.

DMS and all others, I love you and I wish you the best. Keep working the program. And guess what? I also went to SA. It contributed to save my life. I had sponsors; I worked the steps and I still do. I analyze my character defects and try to fix them.

No, Torah did not save me before or now, but I never stated that it wouldn't or couldn't, and I never justified it either.

Peace out.

Did you glance at Step 1 yet?

1. We admitted that we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.

This is the first paragraph from: What is a Sexaholic and what is sexual Sobriety? (written by SA)

"We can only speak for ourselves. The specialized nature of Sexaholics Anonymous can best be understood in terms of what we call the sexaholic. The sexaholic has taken himself or herself out of the whole context of what is right or wrong. He or she has lost control, no longer has the power of choice, and is not free to stop. Lust has become an addiction. Our situation is like that of the alcoholic who can no longer tolerate alcohol and must stop drinking altogether but is hooked and cannot stop. So it is with the sexaholic, or sex drunk, who can no longer tolerate lust but cannot stop."

In my experience, I cant stop my self. I have lost the will power to beat lust. It just overcomes me. If i am not working my program, anything could happen. That doesn't mean i didnt try to struggle with it and that doesnt mean that i always fell. Its just inevitably i did. I also only did porn and masturbation but from listening to others stories, i probably would have acted out with others at some point. And it made my life unmanageable. I was running away from life, suppressing my character defects-fear, resentments etc, and i was wasting a lot of time. I also felt awful, a lot of guilt and shame. 

I cant beat lust. I cant do it on my own. Mikveh didnt work, learning didnt work, mussar didnt work, trying harder didnt work, trying to trick lust didnt work. Nothing worked. Because, for me, its not a religious battle. Its all in the arena of derech eretz. Thats why Torah cant help me with my lust. Derech Eretz kadman l'Torah. Nothing I could do ever helped. I need outside help. I need God's help and SA, my sponsor and the 12 steps have helped me access God's help. It has helped me step out of the way and let God do the dirty work while I connect with other sexaholics, work through my character defects and make up for what i did wrong with others while praying for His will and the willingness to carry it out. 

I am an addict. Maybe you are too. Only you can decide. Only until i could accept my sehaxolism could i ever be happy. I have tried (and still do try!) to deny it but that is just being dishonest. I cant lust like a gentleman. I cant look at girls like others, even other yidden, and be ok. I feel the lust coming up through my legs like dopamine. The rush. 

If you want to speak you can email me: dms1234ongye@gmail.com

For your info, SA has a test with 20 questions: 

Hello,
I'm looking to start the 12-steps (looking for a partner by the way- I'm 19 in a few months) and I'd like to approach them appropriately. What is the definition if an addict? What are his behaviors and thoughts?
Thank you

If i wasnt addicted to m********* before ....i am now or getting to it ....i have never done it soo much before 

i am soo depressed because i know and can feel the darkness it is pulling over me 


i am becoming a shell 

i have given up on myself because of my past deeds and i feel that stopping is impossible now