03 Oct 2017 05:49
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NaharDinur
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HI,
I'm on journey that started when I was 12.
I've been on going mostly downhill for the past 32 years.
196 days ago Hashem showed me the way up by granting me the courage to admit my addiction to a marriage counselor and quite acting out.
103 days ago Hashem gave me the gift of sobriety from my most of my habits of active lust.
I still have a long narrow treacherous road ahead of me, battling multiple addictions, bad habits and life's usual challenges.
That's why I'm here, looking for "strength in numbers", seeking help from others who are fighting the good fight.
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03 Oct 2017 04:13
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bgit
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@Markz
711 sounds good, I'm always good for a slurpee
@stillgoing
Thanks for the advice, and feel free to use the thread to post your thoughts. It's important to think about these things. I'm not sure if I agree with you or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. It sounds like you're saying that if I/we reallyunderstood what the purpose of life was, I/we wouldn't struggle as much since we would be so involved in living life as it's meant to be lived.
I'm probably misunderstanding something, but isn't this basically the mussar approach to fighting lust? "If you only knew how important learning was" or "if you only knew how damaging this is to ourselves/ the world" etc. Aren't we always going to be human beings with the free will to live as we choose, no matter how much clarity we have at a given time (maybe that's what you meant about it still being there, just lessened)? With me at least, the clarity is there for a little bit and then goes away like everything else. Or, at the very least, isn't the process of appreciating what life is truly about a lifetime endeavor? I'm not 98 yet  , but I hope that by the time I get there I'll be living life as seriously as I should.
Also, I know that people might say that I'm in denial or something, but I definitely struggle with lust (although I'm not sure if I fall into the addict category, but I've heard that this is a black hole of a question) and my life has a lot of meaning. I'm really pretty happy with my life, I have a wonderful, supportive family and am pretty happy about how I spend my time (barring pornography of course). Things could always be better, but I have a tremendous amount to be thankful to Hkb"h for and my life is good and meaningful.
In terms of my life, the issue started when my life had less meaning and it definitely could have been why I was drawn in in the first place. At that point of my life I was unhappy with life in general and I'm sure that porn and masturbation acted as ways to "solve" those issues.
I think that my use of pornography and masturbation these days is more or less a (deeply engrained) habit from those days of my life when I "needed" it much more. That's not to say that it's not much more difficult to control when I'm having a bad day or whatever, just that on a day to day basis it's more or less of a habit and not satisfying some deep existential concern (although I'm some level I'm sure it is, as you point out).
These days it's more to relieve the "itch" than anything else (for the most part). For some people around here, the lust was literally destroying their lives and was uncontrollable. For me, it was a once a day thing and had been that way for years and hadn't been getting worse at all. Lehavdil, if I wasn't frum it wouldn't be wildly different than having a habit of having a donut a day. It's unhealthy, it might make you feel a little gross after, it might make you a little overweight, but it's not going to kill you and it's not destroying your life so just worry about other things. The main reason why I'm trying to stop is because it's assur and the side benefits are tangential.
This post/ ramble has been going on for a while and I'm realizing that this may be a part of my problem. Isn't GYE's motto about "hitting bottom while still on top" ? Maybe I just don't feel like it's such a terrible thing or something like that. I don't feel like it's destroyed my life. Is that feeling that you've hit the bottom necessary for a true recovery?
If it is, then what's the eitza here? I can learn about how destructive pornography and masturbation are to my neshama and the world, or focus on all the bad things on my life and blame them on my masturbation. Somehow, I don't feel like these are very healthy approaches. They're likely to cause serious depression and yiush which are exactly what I/ anyone doesn't need.
Wow, stillgoing, you really got me going  ! I haven't thought this through like this and I'm really grateful for the prompting. It's really helped me get a little more clarity than I had before. Anyway, I'm sure you have a different take on much of what I've said and look forward to hearing your (and others) perspective.
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03 Oct 2017 01:27
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Markz
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LoveU,Hashem wrote on 02 Oct 2017 16:23:
Rabbi Mark!
Yirbi Kemoishcu B'yisrael! The way you described the pas besaloi thingy..
I can relate to what you say completely, sometimes it builds up. It's like after 4-5 days, I'm "I hope it happens tonight, I really don't wanna fall tomorrow at work". Then by the time I'm out of the shower she"s past asleep. Things like this can go on for a few days. And then after 8-9 days, I can't help myself and think "what does she expect from me, would she be happy if I fall tomorrow??".
Now that was in the pre gye days. I wonder how flawed this line of thought is in the eyes of a non-addict (couldn't yet determine what I am myself).. You have proposed in the past that addicts and non-addicts may look at things differently.
I'm not sure it's the best thing for the nation that there should be 'yirbu kemosi'.
As I said I'm referring to a state of porn and masturbation freedom, not needed to be saved from falling at work
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02 Oct 2017 21:11
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stillgoing
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Sg: Hi Dov. It's been a while since I've posted on this thread. I realized that I've come to expect you to answer when I call you here. So many people are helped by your posts, but do you think that there is any way to write a little shorter?
"Dov" post=302101 date=1483487364 catid=13 Thanks so much for the deeply appreciated chizzuk.
And you could've written it shorter, I bet!
Sg: Well I can't take out any words that you wrote so, I can't really make it any shorter then you do.
You are really refreshing
Dov wrote on 22 Dec 2016 23:48:
 You are so geshmak!
Sg: Are you tryn to give me a lesson on yeshivish lingo? I say "refreshing", and you say "geshmaked"?!
Dov wrote on 23 Feb 2017 21:47:
That is utter genius.
Thank you, Cords.
Sg: DOV! My name is sg, not cords!
Dov wrote on 21 Feb 2017 23:40:
Thanks for the info, I really haven't paid attention to OP's for the ~9 years I've been posting here, but it bears remembering!
Does this mean you will respond to the questions I posed you, elsewhere?
Sg: Am I supposed to go back over 9 years of posts to find your question? Can you at least give me a hint?
"Dov" post=311006 date=1492729805 catid=19 Taphsic rhymes w chopstick.
That was your clue.
Sg: Oh! that one! But I thought that you were asking that to Cords
Dov wrote on 18 Dec 2016 03:51:
Ok, yeah. Maybe him too.
Sorry, forgot.
Sg: Am I mistaken to think that I am the only insane one here, or are you forgetting my name every few seconds?!
Dov wrote on 18 Dec 2016 01:47:
No, no, do not be mistaken, sir. You are indeed the only insane person here.
Sg: Very funny! Please don't forget my name Dov, am I clear?
Dov wrote on 23 Aug 2017 01:10:
Absolutely clear, Eli, thank you!
You're obviously a very good man, sins and all, as many of us are. And Hashem will help you do whatever you need to do to be freed from lust, just as He helps so many Jews and gentiles I know personally.
If there's ever anything I can help you with, just call on me, chaver.
Sg: DOV!! You called me ELI!!!!!!!
Dov wrote on 28 Aug 2017 04:29:
So?
Sg: You're not allowed to use real names on GYE!
Dov wrote on 27 Mar 2015 16:15:
You know, as much as i know the fake names here are silly, I still daven in shemone esrei for members by name - the silly fake GYE usernames - if they are all I have. G-d knows who I'm talking about and for Him they are (probably silly but) meaningful names.
But I have a hard time saying in the middle of refa'einu: "Tatty, help the man who calls himself Avi-pissed find every single thing he is really looking for and needs, in You, one day soon, along with me and all the sexholics and other addicts in your world. Thank you."
But I still do.
I am sure He is moichel. Seriously.
But I'm, really glad GYE's word-censor thingy doesn't let usernames that are much more, em, rude, through. If they did, I'd have to install a 'beep!'-er in my siddur, or something. It might annoy the guy sitting next me. It might even annoy a gibbor or two...
Sg: Still, that wasn't nice, using it without permission...
Dov wrote on 03 Jan 2017 21:57:
You are right, of course, but at least I apologized in the end of the post, no? Hope that makes it not as great a no-no.
Besides, that wasn't nice...aren't you afraid I'll mess with your karma rating chas vesholom?
Mwahahahahahahahah!!!!!!! 
"Dov" post=110270
So when are you coming to my home town? Or do we live around the corner from each other? Who says this life will not include a meeting of some kind by many of us here on GYE?
Maybe one day we will have a virtualized conference somewhere.
Imagine 100 or so guys (ladies on the other floor of the bldg.) who are each wearing nametags like:
Hi! I am Shmendrick
or
HI! I am BARDS, KEEP ON LORRYING!
or
Hi! I am Blind Beggar. Spare a quarter?
No real names. Just the ridiculous virtual ones 99% of us sit behind. Nu. But it'll be so much fun!! Maybe some will actually come, as long as we do not give out our real names. A sort of "Anonymouses Anonymous"!
And just to get everyone who cares angry, I will be there with a fake name, for a change!
Really, though, I love you too, 1Daat, otherwise I would not make the effort to share with you. We are brothers in some way. Boruch Hashem. I consider it an honor.
Sg: ok Dov. I'm sorry. I get your drift. Fake names can serve a purpose, like fake news, but when it comes down to it, we really cant go on using them forever.
Dov wrote on 28 Aug 2017 15:59:
That's what I hoped you'd say. I relate so well, chaver.
Sg: So is your name really Dov?
Dov wrote on 22 Jun 2017 16:52:
Yes indeed, chaver, yes indeed...
Sg: Wow. Thank you Dov for teaching such a 'real' lesson
Dov wrote on 11 Jan 2017 23:24:
I love you chaver. Have a good day and hatzlocha today with whatever stuff you are trying to be useful in.
What else is there than that, really?
Sg: Yea, you too. I've learned a lot today.
Dov wrote on 16 Dec 2016 03:55:
Just read this, old friend. Now this contains evidence of some real progress...precious.
Hope you are dping ok and look fwd to more posts, calls, or whatever.
Be well, chaver
Sg: You know Dov, that you never asked me how I'm doing.
Dov wrote on 26 Feb 2017 20:00:
Assuming you're doing ok, old pal.
Either way, have a good day (whichever day you read this)

Sg: yea, I am ok. btw, you were by my sons bris a few months ago and you didn't even realize who I was 
Dov wrote on 22 Feb 2017 22:18:
Hilarious!
Hey, have real nachas, even though the kid's only tiny yet....interesting thing to think over. How is nachas possible from a 5 month old. And what does that mean regarding Hashem having nachas from us even though we stink sometimes (just as a 5-month old may). ShL"oh writes about it in sefer Shmos at the end regarding the repetition of the Mishkan details....enjoy!
Sg: That's an interesting point to think about - especially when my mind starts wandering to the wrong places. Gotta go. Life is calling, and I hope that I can live the lessons that I learnt in virtual world in my real world. thanks.
Dov wrote on 15 Feb 2017 18:44:
It's so nice to read this thread, thank you!
I love you folks.
Sg: bye
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02 Oct 2017 16:23
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LoveU,Hashem
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Rabbi Mark!
Yirbi Kemoishcu B'yisrael! The way you described the pas besaloi thingy..
I can relate to what you say completely, sometimes it builds up. It's like after 4-5 days, I'm "I hope it happens tonight, I really don't wanna fall tomorrow at work". Then by the time I'm out of the shower she"s past asleep. Things like this can go on for a few days. And then after 8-9 days, I can't help myself and think "what does she expect from me, would she be happy if I fall tomorrow??".
Now that was in the pre gye days. I wonder how flawed this line of thought is in the eyes of a non-addict (couldn't yet determine what I am myself).. You have proposed in the past that addicts and non-addicts may look at things differently.
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02 Oct 2017 16:03
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cordnoy
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Markz wrote on 02 Oct 2017 12:18:
cordnoy wrote on 02 Oct 2017 11:54:
Markz wrote on 02 Oct 2017 04:02:
So I'm frustrated with the wife that she's not available - sometimes on Mikva night, and sometimes for a long stretch
Now I want to explain to all the singles out there how "Pas b'Salo" works
Fellow has hormones. It's natural to assumes the wife will be available once a week. That one day arrives and without getting hyped up the man assumes it's happening tonight. He may ask wife if she's interested and she may. Comes the evening and "it's not a good time today" so man sweetly turns over and goes to sleep.
The next few days are all repeat - the man is lust free during daylight hours and sex free in the eve
So I need you all to know
Pas Besalo works
Having bread in the basket can actually be a harder challenge than not.
Having to assume the once a week that tonight the wife wants, add to that her partial agreement to consider, and then her nonchalant 'not tonight' - is a VERY stale pas besalo
Knowing that there's no sex on the cards for the next weeks or month is a easier sal of pas to carry
Disclaimer: I'm writing as a sober non addict ( 60+ days clean with prior streak of 650 days) If you don't follow this post you are either;
1. Not sober
2. An addict
3. Don't understand my frustration
4. Other
Should be with hatzlachah.
In true sobriety, it wouldn't make a difference.
Thanks for the bracha
I don't believe I was truly deep in addiction. Is there no true sobriety hope for me?
I don't know who's addicted and who's not; truthfully, sometimes I wonder if there's an addiction to this altogether.
I also don't know what true sobriety really means.
What I do know, I think, is that an easier or harder "pas besalo" is all dependent on our mindset, regardless of the length of our abstinence or our "not knowin' when." When one is truly sober (which I am not), he will possess the necessary tools required of him to deal with any life situation thrown at him.
(The concept of "pas besalo" is simply a method or a mindset to help make it easier for some people. It is why it can be easier for a married person; it doesn't mean it will be. And, like you pointed out, bein' married doesn't automatically mean that you have that either.)
Hatzlachah to you and all, and me (my pas has been in the kitchen way too long).
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02 Oct 2017 12:18
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Markz
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cordnoy wrote on 02 Oct 2017 11:54:
Markz wrote on 02 Oct 2017 04:02:
So I'm frustrated with the wife that she's not available - sometimes on Mikva night, and sometimes for a long stretch
Now I want to explain to all the singles out there how "Pas b'Salo" works
Fellow has hormones. It's natural to assumes the wife will be available once a week. That one day arrives and without getting hyped up the man assumes it's happening tonight. He may ask wife if she's interested and she may. Comes the evening and "it's not a good time today" so man sweetly turns over and goes to sleep.
The next few days are all repeat - the man is lust free during daylight hours and sex free in the eve
So I need you all to know
Pas Besalo works
Having bread in the basket can actually be a harder challenge than not.
Having to assume the once a week that tonight the wife wants, add to that her partial agreement to consider, and then her nonchalant 'not tonight' - is a VERY stale pas besalo
Knowing that there's no sex on the cards for the next weeks or month is a easier sal of pas to carry
Disclaimer: I'm writing as a sober non addict ( 60+ days clean with prior streak of 650 days) If you don't follow this post you are either;
1. Not sober
2. An addict
3. Don't understand my frustration
4. Other
Should be with hatzlachah.
In true sobriety, it wouldn't make a difference.
Thanks for the bracha
I don't believe I was truly deep in addiction. Is there no true sobriety hope for me?
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02 Oct 2017 11:54
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cordnoy
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Markz wrote on 02 Oct 2017 04:02:
So I'm frustrated with the wife that she's not available - sometimes on Mikva night, and sometimes for a long stretch
Now I want to explain to all the singles out there how "Pas b'Salo" works
Fellow has hormones. It's natural to assumes the wife will be available once a week. That one day arrives and without getting hyped up the man assumes it's happening tonight. He may ask wife if she's interested and she may. Comes the evening and "it's not a good time today" so man sweetly turns over and goes to sleep.
The next few days are all repeat - the man is lust free during daylight hours and sex free in the eve
So I need you all to know
Pas Besalo works
Having bread in the basket can actually be a harder challenge than not.
Having to assume the once a week that tonight the wife wants, add to that her partial agreement to consider, and then her nonchalant 'not tonight' - is a VERY stale pas besalo
Knowing that there's no sex on the cards for the next weeks or month is a easier sal of pas to carry
Disclaimer: I'm writing as a sober non addict ( 60+ days clean with prior streak of 650 days) If you don't follow this post you are either;
1. Not sober
2. An addict
3. Don't understand my frustration
4. Other
Should be with hatzlachah.
In true sobriety, it wouldn't make a difference.
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02 Oct 2017 08:33
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ItWorksIfYouWorkIt
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Welcome to the world of recovery, the first step is to recognize your powerlessness over the allure of pornography.
Let's leave the Yetzer Hara and Religion out of this, and let's talk about dopamine addiction.
Truth is, were not addicted to porn, porn is merely the delivery system for the dopamine rush we get when were self medicating to numb out our frustrations, worries and fears (among other triggers).
I'm simplifying, but Viewing pornographic images sets off a psycho-neural-sexual chain reaction in the brain that floods you with the feel good pleasure center drug of dopamine.
Were essentially getting "high" off of our selves. We don't have to go to the store to buy a bottle or the corner to buy a bag. We can be our own dispensary at any moment. Pornography is the plunger and the needle but it's not the drug.
This is not a character defect or a matter of immorality. It is not a matter of Emunah or lack of Emunah!
We are not bad people trying to be good, we are sick people trying to get well and that is a critical distinction.
My advice to you is to investigate what you are feeling emotionally before you "act out". Are you feeling angry, sad, depressed, anxious, fearful, tired, resentful? These are some of the main triggers that lead to self medicating (dopamine fixing).
I have now been sober for six months, before this I had been abstinent for a couple of years. There is a critical and monumental difference between not looking at porn and being sober
. Abstention for abstentions sake is not the goal, plenty of guys(and girls) live lives of porn deprivation and are miserable because they have not replaced their destructive behaviors with constructive behaviors.
Take your time, be kind to your self. This is a lifelong process of developing a loving relationship with yourself.
Start writing down the things that trigger and trouble you the most and see how prevalent those things are right before you look, IDENTIFY THE CULPRIT!!!
Patience...Patience...Patience!!!
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02 Oct 2017 04:02
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Markz
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So I'm frustrated with the wife that she's not available - sometimes on Mikva night, and sometimes for a long stretch
Now I want to explain to all the singles out there how "Pas b'Salo" works
Fellow has hormones. It's natural to assumes the wife will be available once a week. That one day arrives and without getting hyped up the man assumes it's happening tonight. He may ask wife if she's interested and she may. Comes the evening and "it's not a good time today" so man sweetly turns over and goes to sleep.
The next few days are all repeat - the man is lust free during daylight hours and sex free in the eve
So I need you all to know
Pas Besalo works
Having bread in the basket can actually be a harder challenge than not.
Having to assume the once a week that tonight the wife wants, add to that her partial agreement to consider, and then her nonchalant 'not tonight' - is a VERY stale pas besalo
Knowing that there's no sex on the cards for the next weeks or month is a easier sal of pas to carry
Disclaimer: I'm writing as a sober non addict ( 60+ days clean with prior streak of 650 days) If you don't follow this post you are either;
1. Not sober
2. An addict
3. Don't understand my frustration
4. Other
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01 Oct 2017 15:46
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Yankelthefighter
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Thanks for your chizuk @loveu,hashem. (It also helped me stay clean tonight.) @robfloyd thanks for your thought's
I did a lot of thinking on the subject and both sides of the coin have very strong argument's which makes this a very tough situation. I have decided that i won't propose to anyone unless i have at least 30 clean days (we are holding by the 4th but hopefully with all of you guys help i will make it) (because if i can't even get that while knowing that my future is on the line that will mean i have a bad addiction and i need to go to SA b4 marriage) and i will share some of my feelings with the girl i'm dating (i think a good place to discuss it is while disscussing what kind of internet access would you like to have at home. I will explain why i'm firm about why the maximum i'll accept is a whitelist (don't worry i'll whitelist GYE!).and i think that way she will see maturity in me and how i deal with struggles. What are people's thoughts?
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01 Oct 2017 04:24
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LoveU,Hashem
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Reb Yankel,
I hope you had an uplifting Yom Kippur and may you merit a successful and clean year! Today by mincha we read in the Torah כמעשה ארץ מצרים אשר ישבתם בה לא תעשו וכמעשה ארץ כנען אשר אני מביא אתכם שמה לא תעשו ובחקתיהם לא תלכו.. ושמרתם את חקתי ואת משפטי אשר יעשה אתם האדם וחי בהם אני יהוה. It's hit me how only when Hashem talks about illicit sexual relationships does he feel the need to emphasize that be restraining ourselves to only what's designated to us, we will truly live. Nowhere else is this term mentioned.
Anyways, back to your struggle, I truly understand you conflict and can relate to it as well (hey, I haven't gotten married too long ago..). From one side, for you to grow, you better get married. On the other hand, in your current state, had the girl truly know you, she wouldn't marry you. There's a famous joke about this old nerd in shul who never got married, claiming that he doesn't wanna marry someone that is so crazy as to wanna marry him. But he's the deal; had you truly known the girl, with all her flaws and shortcomings, I can almost promise you you wouldn't marry her either. Most singles, girls and boys alike, are self centered individual who have seldomly ever sacrificed anything for others or truly worked on their character. And that is the point of marriage. Marriage gives you the opportunity to work on yourself (if you choose to do so). It is ok to come into marriage as a raw individual, that is why you are indeed getting married. Since we are both raw individuals, let us get married so we can transform ourselves together. Getting married struggling with porn is as deceiving as getting married self centered. It's is the way we are created, most of your yeshiva pals struggle with it too, and the most effective way to give it up is when married. If she expects to marry a malach (that is a bachur who doesn't struggle with porn etc) she is living in a big illusion.
That it not to say that you shouldn't start working on yourself now. Just the opposite. The more you watch, the more addicted you will become, the harder it will be to stop. All I'm saying is that waiting might not be a wise idea.
I hope i added some clarity (it definitely helped me stay clean tonight
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30 Sep 2017 19:38
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ItWorksIfYouWorkIt
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Hey Brother,
So from me you may get a different perspective because while I am a Baal Teshuva, I am still very much secular. I don't blame you for not wanting to approach people in the Frum community(not including this site, this site is 12 step based and that's where the magic happens). You are a soldier in a war fighting against enemies in addiction and compulsion that you can't possibly understand yet. Never trust a civilian with a soldiers secret. There are more than enough people in the recovery community that understand what your going through. It makes sense that you don't trust people easily. I'm sure somewhere in your past you suffered a traumatic experience that led you to a lifetime of self medicating. Truthfully, just like my Father, your Father left playboys lying around where you had access. Guess what, that is child abuse and you were sexually abused by it. Our parents didn't know the harm of a child's exposure to hyper-sexual material. Only now do we understand the arousal template, it's formation and our neuro-plasticity and transmission. I'm going to cut this short because recovery is a long, arduous, painful process, BUT AND I MEAN BUT, I promise you it is the most rewarding process and who you will become through the process of your recovery will be stunning. You will be the happiest person, free of guilt and free of shame. You will embrace the sadness, you will learn to sit through the grief and loss without even considering masturbating. You will discover that what you are hiding from is a scary shadow on the wall cast by a mosquito.
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29 Sep 2017 13:12
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gibbor120
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Welcome! There are many on this site who are addicted. There are many who are not. There are all sorts in between. This site is for anyone who wants to stop any acting out activity. I wouldn't worry about the addict label too much. Check out the handbook. It can be very enlightening. Keep posting here. It is an amazing chevra willing to listen, help, offer advice, or just clown around with a good joke.
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29 Sep 2017 13:03
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gibbor120
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Being busy and having a focus can definitely help. Are there hobbies you can engage in? What about chessed projects ect.? Having friends and being social can also be very helpful. Check out the handbook and try some of the tools. I wouldn't get too caught up in the "am I an addict or not game". It is not usually helpful. See what works and do it. Keep posting here. I wish you all the best.
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