lifebound wrote on 21 Mar 2018 06:43:

Dear Lifebound,
Thanks for having the courage and strength to share openly  about your experiences....I have been there many times.....I'm sick of this. I hate it so much.....and then doing it all over again. Total insanity!
Yes....After my last 90 streak masturbation was the biggest relief ever.
....... greeting an old friend    definitely relate to this feeling....BH for me getting sober this time around is actually like greeting an old friend .IMHO  just like  pathways are created  in the brain from continuing to act out....that are also pathways of recovery created when taking actions of recovery. So BH I am still able to access some of those "pathways"..Bezras Hashem  you will too...

Do I really want to stop? Yes! but not at the expense of sweet porn... These thoughts and feelings were running constantly in my head during my relapse! Yes,it is sweet..that is why it is called "eye candy" but I am a "candy addict" one is too much.....and a 100 is not enough.  and then comes all the guilt and shame which is not sweet at all.

lifebound wrote on 21 Mar 2018 15:37:

nope ,sorry, there is GREAT growth and there is GREATER growth,whiteknuckling probably is GREAT growth,and you are not the same person anymore, you and many others like you are doing GREAT THINGS ,and ther are those who imsure took it it the way i wrote even though M.  didnt mean it , unfortanetly it can be taken that way, so be careful, wont say names , simply because i dont want to be attacked  , but peoples Torah, Tefila , Teshuva etc...have been made verbaly into nothing because they are not on the road of GREATER growth, so please excuse me if i assumed M. is just parroting their way of thought, there are some people here who adopt a rough and tough way of talking because they  want to emulate  a certain ,person/s style ive seen their style  of talking /posting  change , even their words have similarities,im not talking about words like the-the, i mean words where the tuffy coined certain expressions ,(by the way the tuffy who im talking about has the heart of a teddy bear,) and this wasnt only a defense for you, glad you dont need it , but there are others who  read these posts 

Hi Lifebound welcome back 
Hearing you speak about your fall, brought back memories about my fall, you see last october i attempted to stop cold and i also killed myself until i hit 33 days clean. (my Gye Username at that time was yankelthefighter feel free to check out my posts from that time period) and then i fell and when i fell i gave up hope of ever quitting until 3 months ago, when i got caught by my mother and that's when i made a commitment I MUST QUIT i told myself either i quit with talking to the chevra etc, installing filters, ETC or i must start going to SA (something i'm extremely embarrassed to do) but staying addicted the way i was IS NOT AN OPTION. I CAN'T CONTINUE LIVING THIS WAY! And b'h this shabbos i'll hit 90 days!
So When i think about why this time i was more successful than last time i think it was as you very clearly said in your post "I think the only reason I was able to stay away from porn for this long (35 whole days...) was because I knew in the back of my mind that I wasn't truly done with porn" that's what i felt last time i tried this time around i told myself I'M DONE WITH PORN and I MUST QUIT and if i need to go to SA i will because i Can't continue living with this addiction.

Dear Lifebound i want you to know this attempt wasn't a waste of time you learn't a lot, became extremely self aware and i'm sure once you regain your footing and truly realize "I'M DONE WITH PORN and I MUST QUIT and if i need to go to SA i will because i Can't continue living with this addiction" then that attempt will get farther but like i've heard from Dov many times i think without this realization which sadly usually only comes when people hit rock bottom it's hard to quit when as you said "i knew in the back of my mind that I wasn't truly done with porn which is what happened to me my 1st time around"

:kissing_face:LOTS Of LOVE YANKEL (i still love you dearly)

Markz wrote on 21 Mar 2018 14:02:

im sorry to say , there is growth and there is growth  , whiteknuckling may be a lower level of growth
but its GREAT , i think to say that it does not reflect growth is really not a thought out statement, the next thing youll know is that youll start playing G-D and say you know L.B. i dont even think you deserve any reward for those worthless 35 days.
please think before you post

Yerushalmi, for non addicts your post was great - keep them coming and keep sharing

You wrote "You now know that you have it within you to fight for 35 whole days! Undoubtedly, you have grown"
This guy has been fighting presumably for 10,20,30 years. Another 35 days of white knuckling do not reflect growth - sorry

The fact he came back and shared is great and he'll grow in his own time and pace with Gds help

Although I posted this on another thread, this is a topic that is very dear to my heart so I am reposting it on my thread:

There have certainly been a fair amount of Jews who went to SA and became less religious, myself included, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with SA's program. I think it has much more to do with today's frum culture (which is a completely different topic and one that I will not discuss). I have no scientific evidence on this, but I have found that those who join SA and live out of town (for me that means out of NY/NJ) have had no decrease in their religious practices, while those who live in-town are much more likely to become less religious, although it's certainly not everybody. In my home group (I live in NY but not in the more dense areas) the vast majority of people have kept their level of frumkeit. I also know that many people are in touch with Rebbeim (especially in Lakewood) and they actively seek Rabbinical advice. My Sponsor is actually not religious anymore and he still maintains a close relationship with his Rebbi. At one point, I expressed to my therapist (who's also a respected frum Rabbi) that it was disheartening to me that my Sponsor isn't religious, because I do believe in Judaism and I believe that he's not doing the "right" thing by being irreligious. My therapist's response to that actually shocked me. He said who am I to know what is the right thing for everyone and if people need to be religious. My Sponsor cares for his family very well and he supports and loves them. He pays yeshiva tuition, even though he's not religious. My therapist said that could be his tafkid in life. My disheartenment was stemming from an assumption that I had as to what the right or wrong path for my Sponsor. This was coming from a frum Rabbi. I also have a friend who had a dip in religious observance (he stopped going to shul etc.) and he spoke to a renowned Maggid Shiur (I'm not going to say his name because I was never given permission to publish this in his name). My friend was expressing despair that he was having over not going to shul, but at the time he was feeling like it was too much for him to do, as he was working a hard recovery program. The Maggid Shiur told my friend that his tafkid for now was just to work a recovery program and get sober. That's it. He told him not to focus on religious observance, because that was too much to take on. It happens to be that this friend of mine actually got solid sobriety and he eventually was able to return to his previous level of yiddishkeit.

On a personal level, I (as I mentioned before) am much less steadfast in my religious observance than I used to be. But like my friend, I was taking on way too much. I was not able to juggle leading an intensely religious lifestyle and also work an intense recovery program. However, once I got grounded in recovery and was living a normal life for a consistent period of time, I realized what I was missing in life and made some changes to get back to where I wanted to be with religion. But what recovery has taught me is that I cannot do things quickly. I need to take things very slowly in order for it to "stick." And that is how I'm treating religion. I'm not making massive strides. To steal a phrase from Dov, I'm taking "baby steps." Which is the only way that I know how to grow. I have spoken to two Rebbeim of mine, in fact my two closest Rebbeim, and they both gave their full support to my process. In fact, one of them was my Mashgiach from high school and beis medrash (and a well-established one at that) and he said "I have found that people who have similar paths to you have the most success using the approach that you're using." When I was in active addiction (and this is true for numerous other frum addicts) my religion was a crutch. I used it to cure my addiction (which didn't work, by the way. You wouldn't use religion to cure diabetes, and addiction is just as much of a disease as diabetes) and it was not intrinsic at all. God was two things to me: A ruthless taskmaster who punished me when I stepped out of line and a Santa Claus God who ought to give me what I want because I deserve it. Both of those concepts are incredibly untrue and un-Jewish. And even when I looked very religious (tzitzis out and big yarmulka and peyos and all that jazz) I was very much not religious on the inside. My behavior would go from extremes, from being hyper religious (probably because I needed a cure for my acting out) to being completely dormant (probably because I was depressed from acting out). With the exception of Shabbos and kosher (which I understand are massive aspects of being frum) I cannot claim that I was living a frum life. And that last sentence is true for many other frum/formerly frum addicts. What you see on the outside (white shirt etc.) is not at all what you get, when it comes to addicts. Today, and only because of recovery, I am on a gradual (very gradual) upwards path when it comes to religious observance. I know that I want to raise a frum family and for my kids to go to frum schools. Will it be at the (supposed) level of observance that I had before I got sober? Absolutely not. I don't even desire that anymore. But it will be serene and calm and wholesome and real. Without SA I guarantee you (assuming I would have physically survived, which is a rather large assumption) that I would have utterly destroyed my spouse, traumatized my children, and estranged and embarrassed my family. Today, because of recovery, I know that won't happen (provided I remain in SA). 

Which brings me to my next point: A suggestion was made to join SA, get sober, and leave. There are numerous problems with this suggestion. Firstly, if it was as easy as "join and get sober" we would have a lot more members than we have currently. Secondly, and most importantly, I have crossed paths with numerous people who have joined SA, got sober, and left. The vast majority did not remain sober. In fact,  I only know of three people who have done that and remained sober. The odds are certainly stacked. I leave the choice to you, either you can stay in SA, get sober, and gain stability. Or you can leave once you get sober and risk losing your sobriety and destroying those close to you in the process. As I understand myself today, I would never leave SA. Never. This program has completely saved my life and everything (including my religious observance) I owe to SA.

One final note is that even if SA always caused people to be less religious, there still may be a compelling argument that addicts should go. If one understands the true nature of addiction, that addicts are powerless over their drug of choice (powerlessness is not a cheesy concept, it's scientifically proven) and that the addict will not stop at any point to get their drug of choice (although those red lines get usually get crossed gradually) then addiction is a disease of life or death. SA (along with the S-fellowship as a whole) is proven to be effective for sex addicts and it's still the largest method of recovery used for sex addicts. I could certainly see the argument as to why someone should join, even if their religious observance decreases. And this is assuming that SA automatically reduces one's level of religious observance, which it certainly doesn't.

All in all, SA is certainly a place for everyone, yidden included. If you feel that it's the right thing for you, I fully support it. You can even give me a call about it if you'd like. My number is below

(Also, Dov has an entire article about this topic but I can't seem to find it. If someone could post that link I would appreciate it. I know that my mother got a lot of solace once she read it and I have found some of Dov's words to be startlingly true for me, in my experience).

There have certainly been a fair amount of Jews who went to SA and became less religious, myself included, but I don't think it has anything at all to do with SA's program. I think it has much more to do with today's frum culture (which is a completely different topic and one that I will not discuss). I have no scientific evidence on this, but I have found that those who join SA and live out of town (for me that means out of NY/NJ) have had no decrease in their religious practices, while those who live in-town are much more likely to become less religious, although it's certainly not everybody. In my home group (I live in NY but not in the more dense areas) the vast majority of people have kept their level of frumkeit. I also know that many people are in touch with Rebbeim (especially in Lakewood) and they actively seek Rabbinical advice. My Sponsor is actually not religious anymore and he still maintains a close relationship with his Rebbi. At one point, I expressed to my therapist (who's also a respected frum Rabbi) that it was disheartening to me that my Sponsor isn't religious, because I do believe in Judaism and I believe that he's not doing the "right" thing by being irreligious. My therapist's response to that actually shocked me. He said who am I to know what is the right thing for everyone and if people need to be religious. My Sponsor cares for his family very well and he supports and loves them. He pays yeshiva tuition, even though he's not religious. My therapist said that could be his tafkid in life. My disheartenment was stemming from an assumption that I had as to what the right or wrong path for my Sponsor. This was coming from a frum Rabbi. I also have a friend who had a dip in religious observance (he stopped going to shul etc.) and he spoke to a renowned Maggid Shiur (I'm not going to say his name because I was never given permission to publish this in his name). My friend was expressing despair that he was having over not going to shul, but at the time he was feeling like it was too much for him to do, as he was working a hard recovery program. The Maggid Shiur told my friend that his tafkid for now was just to work a recovery program and get sober. That's it. He told him not to focus on religious observance, because that was too much to take on. It happens to be that this friend of mine actually got solid sobriety and he eventually was able to return to his previous level of yiddishkeit.

On a personal level, I (as I mentioned before) am much less steadfast in my religious observance than I used to be. But like my friend, I was taking on way too much. I was not able to juggle leading an intensely religious lifestyle and also work an intense recovery program. However, once I got grounded in recovery and was living a normal life for a consistent period of time, I realized what I was missing in life and made some changes to get back to where I wanted to be with religion. But what recovery has taught me is that I cannot do things quickly. I need to take things very slowly in order for it to "stick." And that is how I'm treating religion. I'm not making massive strides. To steal a phrase from Dov, I'm taking "baby steps." Which is the only way that I know how to grow. I have spoken to two Rebbeim of mine, in fact my two closest Rebbeim, and they both gave their full support to my process. In fact, one of them was my Mashgiach from high school and beis medrash (and a well-established one at that) and he said "I have found that people who have similar paths to you have the most success using the approach that you're using." When I was in active addiction (and this is true for numerous other frum addicts) my religion was a crutch. I used it to cure my addiction (which didn't work, by the way. You wouldn't use religion to cure diabetes, and addiction is just as much of a disease as diabetes) and it was not intrinsic at all. God was two things to me: A ruthless taskmaster who punished me when I stepped out of line and a Santa Claus God who ought to give me what I want because I deserve it. Both of those concepts are incredibly untrue and un-Jewish. And even when I looked very religious (tzitzis out and big yarmulka and peyos and all that jazz) I was very much not religious on the inside. My behavior would go from extremes, from being hyper religious (probably because I needed a cure for my acting out) to being completely dormant (probably because I was depressed from acting out). With the exception of Shabbos and kosher (which I understand are massive aspects of being frum) I cannot claim that I was living a frum life. And that last sentence is true for many other frum/formerly frum addicts. What you see on the outside (white shirt etc.) is not at all what you get, when it comes to addicts. Today, and only because of recovery, I am on a gradual (very gradual) upwards path when it comes to religious observance. I know that I want to raise a frum family and for my kids to go to frum schools. Will it be at the (supposed) level of observance that I had before I got sober? Absolutely not. I don't even desire that anymore. But it will be serene and calm and wholesome and real. Without SA I guarantee you (assuming I would have physically survived, which is a rather large assumption) that I would have utterly destroyed my spouse, traumatized my children, and estranged and embarrassed my family. Today, because of recovery, I know that won't happen (provided I remain in SA). 

Which brings me to my next point: A suggestion was made to join SA, get sober, and leave. There are numerous problems with this suggestion. Firstly, if it was as easy as "join and get sober" we would have a lot more members than we have currently. Secondly, and most importantly, I have crossed paths with numerous people who have joined SA, got sober, and left. The vast majority did not remain sober. In fact,  I only know of three people who have done that and remained sober. The odds are certainly stacked. I leave the choice to you, either you can stay in SA, get sober, and gain stability. Or you can leave once you get sober and risk losing your sobriety and destroying those close to you in the process. As I understand myself today, I would never leave SA. Never. This program has completely saved my life and everything (including my religious observance) I owe to SA.

One final note is that even if SA always caused people to be less religious, there still may be a compelling argument that addicts should go. If one understands the true nature of addiction, that addicts are powerless over their drug of choice (powerlessness is not a cheesy concept, it's scientifically proven) and that the addict will not stop at any point to get their drug of choice (although those red lines get usually get crossed gradually) then addiction is a disease of life or death. SA (along with the S-fellowship as a whole) is proven to be effective for sex addicts and it's still the largest method of recovery used for sex addicts. I could certainly see the argument as to why someone should join, even if their religious observance decreases. And this is assuming that SA automatically reduces one's level of religious observance, which it certainly doesn't.

All in all, SA is certainly a place for everyone, yidden included. If you feel that it's the right thing for you, I fully support it. You can even give me a call about it if you'd like. My number is below

(Also, Dov has an entire article about this topic but I can't seem to find it. If someone could post that link I would appreciate it. I know that my mother got a lot of solace once she read it and I have found some of Dov's words to be startlingly true for me, in my experience).

Yerushalmi wrote on 17 Mar 2018 18:33:

wheres that 5 karma button?!

​I'm assuming your question is regarding where do you see that according to GYE SA is a last resort option. If so, see the link guardyoureyes.com/the-gye-program/initial-evaluation. There are 8 levels of addiction, each having it's own recommendations. For level 8 addiction, GYE recommends rehab and/or medication. SA is recommended for level 7. 

i-man wrote on 20 Mar 2018 04:01:

If all else has failed, then 100% go to SA, but you have to know what dangers to watch out for so you can protect yourself.  Use SA to get the foundation to become a real Yid, and then use Yiddishkeit to take you to places that SA could never take you to in a million years!

I would say similar to Reb Markz

 Going to the heart of the matter - whats the better alternative ??
sex addiction ,or going to SA and fixing it ( for someone who needs it to get better )??? 

additionally , from what i know of the 12 steps, a lot of them seem very in sync with hashkafos of yiddishkeit , and i defeninately have heard rabbis discuss just that.

You are completely downplaying the dangers of SA and recklessly recommending that everyone should join SA despite these dangers.  It seems that you are just too enamored to see past your pink cloud. You see, I can recommend SA to people (and frequently do) because I know and admit to the risks, and can therefore be careful about who I recommend it to.  You, on the other hand, should not be recommending it to anyone since you seem to lack all clarity regarding what the risks are, and therefore seem to have no problem guiding neshamas into a situation that may not be the best thing for them. Tread carefully my friend.  Despite your attempts to minimize, the dangers are real, as I have demonstrated from personal experience.

workingmyprogram wrote on 19 Mar 2018 21:08:

1. A. Just for the record most doctors I've been to don't tell me all the side effects about penicillin or anit-biotics. They just tell me what I need in their professional opinion and have a nice day. We all know that medicines have potential side effects and it's up to each individual to do his own research and ask the necessary questions.
   B. IMHO you have the analogy all wrong. Paramedics don't talk about side effects when they're saving someone's life. If someone is overdosing on opioids EMS will administer Narcan without asking questions.  So please don't talk to an addict about Hashkafa when he is all drugged up on sex (what irony!).  An addict that is ready for serious recovery should be told where to go to join SA. To do anything to the contrary is simply absurd; and any Rav that is not intimately familiar with this disease should not be consulted about this either.

2. Please don't be over zealous and dramatize the situation. We dont "grovel at anyone's feet" in this program nor do we "need their churches". We sometimes use meeting rooms that unfortunately happen to be located in a church bldg as a meeting place. (Try asking a Rav if we can use his shul's meeting rooms or simcha hall as a meeting place for SA and see how that goes?) We do not go there and talk about christianity.
I never met Roy K. but I certainly heard many of his recordings and I don't recall ever hearing him say anything about christianity. I certainly dont see any clear and present danger as you do. 
Again when you use words as bedieved you seem to imply as there is a lechatchila of recovery equivalent to SA that is a viable option for most addicts and ther just isn't any such thing.
At worse it's like taking a life-saving medicine that has some non-kosher or uncertified ingredient. To hesitate taking the medicine when there is nothing else as strong available is an aveirah and taking it is a lechatchila.
The real bedieved here is getting into this kind of addiction in the first place! But if you're already in it RUN and take the strongest, most proven medicine out there - GO JOIN SA ASAP.

grateful4life wrote on 19 Mar 2018 15:58:

For the record and the sake of those who are very much in need of the support,healing and opportunity for spiritual growth and recovery available in the live 12 step meetings, sharing my experience over many years of attending live 12 step meetings (first Overeater's Anonymous,AA (open meetings as an observer) and most recently at SA in Manhattan and Brooklyn.

The meetings which I have attended are mixed with people of all religions and levels of spirituality. 
 While I was a bit skeptical at first,I have not encountered any type missionizing or beliefs that were forced upon me.  btw I did consult a famous Rav who is familiar with addiction about the dangers of going to a 12 step program with all types of people,and was advised to attend. 

For those who are curious about SA,there are free  recordings available on the ESH phone line which can be reached at (845)859-1190,password in 1552.Follow the prompts press 2 for SA. 
Speeches which I found helpful  given by Henoch (a frum yid) press 2 again. You can even listen to Roy K. if you want to......

grateful4life wrote on 19 Mar 2018 15:58:

To address a couple of your points:
1. According to your logic, a doctor should never tell his patient the possible side effects of medications for fear that it will deter that patient from taking the medication. That is a foolish and irrational outlook. Patients need to know what to look out for, especially when there are clear and present dangers, so they can protect themselves. If an addict decides it's not worth the risk of getting exposed to some bad hashgafas in SA and would rather be in his addiction, that's his choice. To hide important information from him is not the solution, especially since there are other solutions besides SA meetings (such as GYE, therapy, SLAA and SAA which are much less Christian, etc...)
2. SA is bedieved. PERIOD. Ideally we should not have have to go into churches and grovel at the feet of non Jewish people who secretly despise our belief system in the hopes that they can somehow show us the way to Hashem, the same Hashem that WE brought into the world, not them. Don't fool yourself into thinking that this is the way that Hashem intended it. The fact that we need the non Jews and their churches and guys like Roy K who tried to get Jews to become non religious is evidence of how far we have fallen as yidden in the golus. Go to your meetings, but at least be honest with yourself and don't for one second think that this is lechatchila.