02 Aug 2018 10:30
|
mzl
|
If a man will foolishly claim to you: "that which the sages said regarding obscene language is only in order to frighten and distance a person from sin, and it is meant only for those whose blood is boiling, namely, when he speaks of these things, he becomes aroused to lust. But one who just says it in a joking manner, it is not significant and of no concern." Answer him that his words are those of the evil inclination. For the Sages brought their proofs from explicit verses in scripture: "As a punishment for obscenity, troubles multiply, cruel decrees are proclaimed afresh, the youths of Israel die... for every one is a flatterer and slanderer, and every mouth speaks obscenities" (Isaiah 9:16). This verse mentions neither idol worship nor illicit relations nor murder but flattery, slander, and obscene speech. All of which are sins of the mouth in speech. And on these the decree went forth: "the youths of Israel die and the fatherless and widows cry out and are not answered...neither shall He have compassion.."Rather, the truth is as the words of our sages, of blessed memory, that uttering obscene words is in fact lewdness of speech. It is an aspect of lewdness and falls under the same prohibition as all other matters of lewdness except for the actual act of illicit relations. Even though it does not incur the heavenly punishment of Karet (cutting off of the soul) or death by Beit Din (like the act of illicit relations), but they are nevertheless prohibited in and of themselves. This is besides being things which lead to and draw one to the primary prohibition itself, similar to the case of the Nazir in the Midrash we brought earlier. Regarding "thought" our Sages already mentioned in the beginning of our Beraitha: " 'you shall keep yourself from every evil thing' (Devarim 23:10) - From here R. Pinchas b. Yair said that a person should not have [impure] thoughts in his heart, and thus bring himself to have impurity at night" (Ketubot 46a). They further said: "thoughts of sin are worse than the sin itself" (Yoma 29a) and scripture says explicitly: "evil thoughts are an abomination to G-d" (Mishlei 15:26). We have spoken on two severe sins which people are near to stumble in their branches due to the multitude of these branches and due to the great inclination of a man's heart towards them owing to lusting for them.
I think that's it.
I don't think Hashem assurs destroying the seed after you are basically ready to explode.
Regarding speech and thought the Mesillas Yesharim explains it well. It's clear why speech is different than thought, which is why they are addressed differently.
It's very telling that the chachamim were very upset about obscene speech, and all they could come up with as a source was navi. No chumash. That's important.
Also definitive regarding thoughts is that Shlomo hamelech called it an abomination of G-d. That gives me something to go after. Why doesn't Hashem like abominations?
I am starting to see that the problem with getting aroused is that it's not assur but Hashem punishes people for doing it in certain cases. Like what they say about obscene speech.
It's really bad because it's not assur. In some cases we use to Hashem's advantage. How many people here got married because they are sex addicts? And then before you know it's not to Hashem's advantage any more.
I can believe that Hashem watches my thoughts because when I think other sorts of thoughts I get whacked. Like when I think I'd like to donate money and then change my mind, punctually I get socked with some monetary loss.
But I have some difficulty accepting that Hashem expects me to not think about sex because it bothers him personally with no loss to me. I grew up like a goy and became frum in
my thirties. Deep down I'm a sadist, I like hurting women in my imagination. Why am I zoche that the master of the universe should intently listen to my thoughts?
|
02 Aug 2018 09:40
|
mzl
|
I am a true yid because I managed to piss off the barons of sexual addiction recovery. Don't speak truth to power. Like Avraham avinu, he was on one side and everyone else was on the other side.
|
01 Aug 2018 22:02
|
mzl
|
I put my email in my signature because I see that most people are not comfortable posting on the site. Since I came here to connect with other addicts I think I have to force myself to have private communications. And to check my email ...
|
01 Aug 2018 12:31
|
mzl
|
I was thinking that the yetzer hara of pornography is qualitatively different than the yetzer to say loshon hara. It's good to compare and contrast them because the yetzer hara for loshon hara was only addressed thoroughly in recent times, namely by the Chofetz Chaim zt"l.
They are similar in the sense that they are tough and require constant reflection or action. They are qualitatively different in that the essence of the yetzer of the addict is I-can't-resist-because-I-like-it-a-lot-and-this-indicates-I-don't-desire-yiddishkeit-therefore-I-am-to-be-shunned. It's a desire that directly attacks and undermines our desire to be frum people. Yiddishkeit and p*** are two completely inconsistent things.
In a way it's good news because it means Hashem thinks we are ready to face the question of why we want to be Jews. Can we do better than "nice people are Jewish?"
|
01 Aug 2018 09:21
|
mikestruggling
|
Hi the aa big book says somewhere that helping other addicts helps "when all other methods fail"
with that in mind I'm starting this thread it'll be my take on the steps
*disclaimer* read at youryour own risk bearing in mind 1 I'm writiwriting this primarily to try to keep my hands out of my pants 2 I'm not sober as of when I'm writing this
enjoy
btw I'm using the gye app which has some funny glirglitches so if you see funny double writing just laugh and thank God you're not an alcoholic
|
31 Jul 2018 15:08
|
mzl
|
Markz wrote on 31 Jul 2018 13:15:
I also learned a lot from listening to Rav Miller z"l.
One of the great ideas he emphasizes is the need to have a Rebbe in flesh and blood
Having a dead Rav does not count - Not Moshe Rabeinu, R' Avigdor Miller or Rebbe from any Chassidus Zchisom Yugen Uleini
Further, to understand R' Millers teachings one needs a teacher
Which is why I reposted early yesterday important words by one of our current teachers, in explaining a sentence of Rav Miller, at the "Rav Miller" thread. guardyoureyes.com/forum/15-/334079
It's a must read!
mzl, I'm sure you saw it, right?
I think Rav Miller is 100% right that one should not be open hearted with his spouse (or anybody) for the simple reason that honesty doesn't exist as commonly understood. This concept works for everyone, whether you are an addict, bipolar, depressed, anxious, schizophrenic or whether you are convinced that you are normal.
I think the thing that Dov is referring to in that post is that Torah in general is just another shovel to dig with for someone who's completely deluded that he has no choice but to act out. So if you find vort X you'll spin it, color it, magnify it, minimize it, disqualify it, etc until it's what you need it to be.
|
31 Jul 2018 13:47
|
kavod
|
What happened in 2016? Why did I fell after 90 and plus days?
In summer 2016 I dedicated my whole time to fight the addiction.
I read a lot of Torah, prayed, did not work, did not stressed.
My task was conquer the addiction. I was in quarantine. In norantine better ... 
Curing my disease was the only focus.
Yes I helped it with exercise, healthy meals, not consuming TV, music, etc.
But I remember that after hitting the mark. After daily prayers, stress, having acquired a fear of Hashem like never before (I consumed information that gave me fear). I remember the world was on chaos. Wars looming here and there. My parents recently divorced, my two grandmothers died one after the other, I lost a lot of money. All of the things that never happened me before, nor expected. (Well my grandma yes, but not so suddenly, joined with the other grandma, just when my mother got divorced, and I lost my job).
Boy If I had fear.
And 90 days past. (past 100 I think).
Anyway.
The mark was reached. And suddenly, even though yatzer hara kept pushing with non proper things on youtube, where I only had kosher history views. Where did they came from?
I fell. But I fell deeply because I did not change my life.
Yes. After 90 days, I resisted. And I conquered with the help of Hashem.
But all my resources were out to fight the battle. Nobody stayed home, building the new fortress, the new hope, the new life.
Nothing was left after the fight. So naturally, after the 90 day mark, I burnt all my ships.
It took hatzer hara a few images, a little bit of stress here and there. And that was it.
I forgot to create a new life.
So BH this time. After the 90 days, I do not only come with the reign protected but empty inside. But in the meantime, a new holy purposely new life is built during the fight, that does not burn all soldiers after 90 days. An endless source of healthy soldiers, able to fight, protect and win. I do not stop doing certain habits, but I get all that energy to do others constructive. Like building a family, parnassa, do what I think I am born to do, and Torah life. This time, this is not a siege, this a construction of a new kingdom. A kingdom that never stops doing what is right, that has all the peaces moving for its porpoise, its role. A happy, goal oriented, organised, purposely, lively, and holy kingdom.
|
31 Jul 2018 04:33
|
grateful4life
|
ManWhoStumbles wrote on 31 Jul 2018 02:30:
Reasons not to play online games:
1)Battle Royale games are inherently evil, since they call for every-man for himself.
2) Online games are often violent, and violence shouldn't be celebrated in the form of interactive art such as games, but rather commemorated and mourned over.
3) It is bitul Torah.
4) It is unhealthy to sit and play games, which damages the body and mind G-d has given me.
5)Games desensitize me towards violence.
6) Games take away time from work.
7) Playing an online game with other people is wasting their time and I could apply some of the other reasons for them as well
8) I feel guilty after playing online games.
Here again your main focus on not wanting to continue doing this behavior is mainly to avoid feeling guilty. If you can redirect your focus solely on improving your quality of life, it will allow you to recover.
All lust addicts use lust as a form of escape from facing life. Some find that recovery from lust is not enough because they have other serious compulsive behaviors that they drown themselves in for the purpose of escaping life, like playing games for hours on end. If you find that your life is unmanageable as a result of your compulsiveness to playing games or other compulsive "time wasters" then I urge you to look into UA - www.underearnersanonymous.org - it's for addicts that are wasting way too much time (through various time wasters) and not living up to their potential but yet they cannot stop.
Wishing you much Hatzlacha in all areas of your life.
|
31 Jul 2018 04:12
|
grateful4life
|
ManWhoStumbles wrote on 27 Jul 2018 23:34:
Went in too free fall the last two days, after a week clean. I meant to post something but it didn't go through. It is impossible for me to filter my internet since I live with my family and there several chromebooks lying around. I am not sure what to do at this point.
Here is a list of reasons I don't want to watch porn and mzl: ( some are repetitious)
1) I don't want to be punished as severely in Gehinom. - FEAR/GUILT
2) I don't want my family to be punished or ancestors for my sins. - FEAR/GUILT
3) Porn is degrading to woman. - GUILT
4) I want to have control over my temptations, and be better than an animal - GUILT
5)I have female relatives, and it disgusts me what I am doing. - GUILT
6) After I watch porn, I have trouble looking people in the eye since I feel ashamed. - GUILT
7) After watching porn, I can't concentrate on work. - This is a healthy focus. You can't live life if you can't concentrate.
8) Porn and mzl makes me feel terrible. - "terrible" sounds like GUILT. Feeling "miserable" would be a healthy motivator.
9) I get angry at myself after porn and mzl. - GUILT
10) I feel like a hypocrite when being Chazan in shul or getting Aliyah. - GUILT
11) By watching a porn video, I am funding more porn sites, since the ads pay pornsites per viewer. - GUILT
12) I am feeding an addiction with porn and mzl. - GUILT
13) I sometimes binge eat after watching porn and mzl. - Healthy motivator. It affects quality of life.
14) Porn and mzl are big wastes of time. - not sure if this a healthy quality of life issue or if this stems from your GUILT.
15) I waste time trying to fight porn and mzl by going on gye, when I could learn torah or other Mitzvot. - sounds like GUILT
16) I am stealing my body from hashem when I do MZL. - GUILT
17) I fear that G-d will punish me in this world for porn and MZL. - FEAR/GUILT
18) I am social recluse, and I think porn has to do with it. - Healthy motivator. It affects your quality of life.
Hi ManWhoStumbles,
I am truly sorry for your pain and struggles and I commend you for reaching out for help.
What I've learned from the 12 step program and what has kept me sober for almost 2 years is that I could not get any recovery from this struggle/ addiction/obsession until I removed 2 words from my thoughts - FEAR and GUILT. This obsession feeds itself on those feelings and the 12 steps teaches that one will never overcome his addiction and live a healthy life until a mindful shift is made, one where FEAR and GUILT don't come into play. Our addiction that we struggled with so badly is a disease. We are not bad people trying to become good, we are SICK people trying to become WELL.
The vast majority of what you wrote illustrates the exact problem with your recovery path. It's full of FEAR and GUILT as I've indicated above.
In order to recover I needed to focus on working a program for the sole reason that acting out and running after lust simply made my life miserable and unmanageable. I wanted to be able to live and being a slave to my lust obsession was not living. That's it.
If your life has become unmanageable because of your lust obsession I welcome the opportunity to discuss with you a plan for recovery that will set you free.
Feel free to reach out and may Hashem give you the courage and strength to take the necessary path towards true recovery. May you soon be able to proudly change your name to "ManWhoStumbled".
G4L
|
31 Jul 2018 01:02
|
cordnoy
|
The white book dedicates several pages for the definition/understandin' of an addict.
|
31 Jul 2018 00:50
|
Ftndrug
|
mzl. Or maybe I should better say not-mzl :] I used to think back when I was regularly mzl that it would be impossible for me to stop completely and that I will necessarily fall even if try to stop. And that's exactly what happened. Every time. When I got to gye that view changed. So maybe that's why the conditioning is working for me.so if a person can reach this state of mind-he can probably be called cured.. at least according to your description of an addict. (I would describe it a bit differently though)
codnoy-for sure! (you saw what I meant by cured in the first part here). And btw. What would you say is the right way to describe an addict?
JoyOfLife-thank you! I am happy someone can benefit from my personal struggles, I wish you success and the happiness and clarity that comes with staying sober. Its absolutely worth the journey, and as you can see-absolutely possible.
and the zoro thing brings back some memories :D
|
30 Jul 2018 18:39
|
kavod
|
Dears fellows,
Back in 2016 I did the 90 days chart with you guys.
I remember I was totally lost. Having tried everything I just found this website.
The pdf was the truth that I had been looking for a long time.
It is all about following gye seriously.
What is the problem? The problem is that we are too proud to admit we have a problem.
We do not want to be labeled ill. Boy, number one step. I am ill, and it is serious.
Second. Falling. Did I do the 90 days straight? No. I fell, and I fell and I fell. And sadly my parents divorced, my two grandma died the same year. Hashem gave a a hint. Enough. I hope now you get scared.
And I did.
After 60 days, while mourning my first grandma, I fell.
Then my second grandma died (both in their good late years, yet sad anyway).
And then the 90 days were achieved while mourning my grandma.
I remember that I fell so many times before, that I tried everything, taphsic, forums, read mails...
What was the winner combination for me?
1. I remember I promised that if I fail, I would donate 180 euros to gye. 90 + 90. I did. (with its share  ).
2. I prayed everyday tehillim. All book.
3. My eyes were shut. Yes, in summer, in a hot country, where modesty is nonexistent among goy. My eyes were shut. Looking to the floor in the street. Asking forgiveness when I slipped slightly.
I remember a shiur that said the S--an enters through the eyes. If you do not look it can not enter.
I assure you it is true. I tried it guys. True. You do not look, and it really does not bother you any more.
Honestly, just do not look. Nothing. And if you do, ask forgiveness right away. And look away right away.
4. The forums were awesome, because you guys were really honest and helping.
What am I doing here then?
Well, after that spring / summer 90 and plus days, I fell again. My addiction though was less severe. I avoided porn videos totally. So now I fall in a slightly less retorted manner.
I want to marry (first find the one), but I am addicted. And I have to quit forever.
I can not afford to be ill for my future wife or even candidate, and Hashem just can not give me sheffa if I am not a vessel.
So here I am again. 2018. With your help. We must kill the evil forever and bring the Moschiach.
And what a better way to start than with our addictions.
|
30 Jul 2018 04:24
|
Markz
|
Dov wrote on 15 Nov 2013 12:00:
Pure Daniel wrote:
Just want to comment that in my case telling my wife is the LAST thing I would want to do. She doesn't deserve the heartache. I think in many cases the damage will outweigh the potential benefit.
The Gemarah says that a person should say "what a beautiful bride" at a chupah.
The Gemarah asks about a case where the bride is 'downright ugly' should you still say "what a beautiful bride"?
Beis Hillel says YES!
But it is a LIE??!!
Says the Gemarah "one is allowed to lie for the sake of Shalom Bayis"
This is talking about for the sake of SOMEONE ELSES shalom bayis.
ALL THE MORE SO WHEN IT IS YOUR OWN SHALOM BAYIS!!!
Stay Pure,
Daniel UK
Wow. I'd like to respond to Pure Daniel's post with a thing I wrote and sent back to the rav Avigdor Miller society I get beautiful daily emails from. This one, however, was a doozy, and my response speaks to the value of honesty in marriage.
I am not saying that you, him, or anyone should tell his wife he masturbates or looks at other naked women regularly. I agree that in many cases it would be a mistake.
But, be"H, here is some food for thought for whoever reads it:
A quote from Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l I recieved today:
How does a wife "Open her mouth with wisdom"?
June 3, 2013
25 Sivan 5773
Manage my subscription
Always a man's inside should (strive to) be like his outside. (Brachos 28A)
But it is not recommended that his outside be like his inside. Even to each other the husband and wife should be perfect actors. Never should a wife (or bride) reveal anything derogatory or distasteful about herself, her past, or her family.
"She opens her mouth with wisdom," and the ideal of being "open-hearted" to a husband (or to a wife) is a serious fallacy. (Career of Happiness)
To whomever this is concerned:
I love The Rabbi zt"l and miss his evening lectures so much. But I must tell you that this vort of his is often terribly misunderstood and the way people often use the concept he refers to here, is often poisonous. I work with many good people with terrible problems. Many of them live in denial and have a terrible time getting honest - and so, they never get help. Their greatest skill of all is in their ability to cover up and fake many details of who they really are, even especially to the ones who love them and trust them the most! Besides ourselves, our spouses and children are the main victims of being lied to and fooled.
Once again, Rav Miller is teaching rare and precious wisdom, here - but it is only true and good when applied to truly normal people. He leaves no room for the abnormal, the ill, and the twisted who are among us. I believe that this was always part of his general derech: speaking to the normal crowd. In fact, the generation of Americans he grew up with were the very same way, minimizing and almost ignoring disabilities and the weak - always putting forth the strong and handsome as our representatives and models. Witness the 50's and the 'Leave it to Beaver' culture. They sincerely believed that by doing otherwise and showing the wheelchair-bound or abnormal among our ranks, they'd be encouraging weakness. So, like FDR's polio, they had to hide weakness.
But The Jewish People is different. 'Mi k'amcho Yisroel' does not mean we are perfect or ought to seem perfect; being a good Jewish spouse does not mean you or me are perfect persons; and some of us really do have serious, distasteful problems that need to be opened up about and are shameful. And sadly, there are tens of thousands in this category and it is so unfortunate that many choose the comfort of pretending all is ok as a good way to deal with that.
It is not.
If chronic porn use and masturbation is the scourge in our Torah community that many frum experts say it is, then the faking and lying in our community is a cancer that is rotting things from the inside out. The yetzer hora and habitual use of the porn and sex workers may be symptoms of the problem - but the ability to accept living a fake life is its life's blood. Encouraging hiding, enables the game to survive and continue indefinitely. As long as our leaders project and encourage 'faking perfection' as a Jewish value, the masses will not get the help they need to squarely and bravely face their problems until their pain is too great. That's not fair. And our community has some dire, deep problems that nobody really seems to know how to handle! ...Maybe that is why so few suggest opening up about it?
But people like Rabbi Mordechai Twerski, Rabbi Abraham J Twerski and others, are trying desperately to help our leadership get the tools to respond to these problems - but most Torah authorities have no clue what to do about things like violence in the home, about addiction to alcohol, sexual promiscuity, gambling, and drugs, and about many family and marriage problems, etc. We can jam all the anti-internet rallies full of 'normals' (really normal-lookers) - and it still will not convince anyone that we here in the rally do not have the problem ourselves or addressing our issues. And all the books on 'shalom bayis' and 'teens at risk' that are printed, will not prove to ourselves or others that we are addressing these issues, either.
We are not. We are mostly still running from.
So I hope that even if we as a society cannot Torah tolerate leaders who are imperfect, we may at least accept Torah leaders who will not encourage us to hide from our real problems and just fit into the mold.
I think that ideas such as this one from Rav Miller zt'l, encourage that denial, and should not be taught at all in such a general, simplistic manner without clarification. I have met (and continue to meet) enough people who have suffered and are still suffering from the mach'loh of applying oversimplified 'Torah-advice', as I have.
I lived for 11 years of marriage leaning heavily on that one line, "Meshaneh mipnei hasholom". It was a fiasco.
Hide the fact that I missed the minyan, for why should she know...then hide the fact that I called the sex phone line because, "Oy, poor girl. That would really break her heart!"
C'mon. That's not meshaneh mipnei hashalom bayis, at all! It's meshaneh mipnei MY shalom and comfort! Furthermore, I probably rationalize that if I tell her, then she will not want to have sex with me, and then I will sin even more! So I'd better keep my masturbation a secret, to save my kedushas haBris...
Wow, that makes sense to this sick mind. It's uncanny how convenient these 'Chaza"lim' are, no?
And because we start meshaneh mipnei hashalom for this, we do it for that - just as Chaza"l say "The YH comes and says do this, then tomorrow do that...and finally when he says "Go do avodah zorah" and the yid says, "What?!" - the YH says, "And what you did yesterday wasn't practically A"Z already?!!"
I love and be"H will continue to learn, use, and spread Rav Miller's Torah values and teachings. He was a rare man to have such beautiful clarity about so much of life as Hashem's Will expressed. Whether he had a blind spot in this p'rat is not for me to judge but I believe Hashem places personal responsibility on me to ignore teachings such as these - and to keep the rest.
As Chaza"l teach us, "bar min hateven".
No, chevra. It is far, far better to be meshaneh mipnei hashalom for someone else's marriage, than it will ever be to be mashaneh for your own marrriage.
And when it comes to disclosure of our sexual betrayals to our wives, every case needs to be judged completely individually and patiently.
|
29 Jul 2018 14:24
|
cordnoy
|
growup wrote on 29 Jul 2018 14:00:
Hey jol
There is no finish line - 90 is just a "siman to see if your addicted" or something like that. idk.
The main thing is to focus and retain joy of life that should help.
No, it is not a siman at all. It proves nothin' of the kind whether you get there or not.
|
29 Jul 2018 14:18
|
JoyOfLife
|
You're %100 right. I meant that 90 days is a goal of mine which I would really like to accomplish. FYI the reason why they picked 90 days is stated on the 90 day chart and I quote : Take the leap of faith and start your 90 days challenge!It's not all or nothing. Just do your best and track your days. Scientific studies show it takes about 90 days to change the neuron pathways in the brain created by addictive behaviors. Members of the 12-Step groups are given a "red" recovery chip when they reach 90 days. We also find the idea of 90 in Chazal. The Halacha is, that if one is not sure if he said "v'sen tal u'matar", he must repeat the Shmoneh Esrei. However after 30 days, one no longer needs to repeat Shmoneh Esrei when in doubt, because we assume that his mind has already gotten used to saying it. 30 days is 90 Shmoneh Esreis! Chazal knew that it takes 90 times of doing something to get the mind used to it. The Hebrew letter “Tzadik” – which symbolizes a Tzadik who is pure, also equals 90 in Gematria. Our sages have said: "There is a small organ in a man, if one feeds it - it is hungry, if one starves it - it is satiated". The most difficult days are in the beginning. It will gradually get better.
Hitting the 90 day mark in of itself is nothing. Its the quality of my life which bh will get better and 90 is one of the means to improving my joy of life. Thanks for giving me your feedback - interaction with others that understand this issue is immensely helpful so thank you
|
|