mzl wrote on 06 Aug 2018 03:55:

I don't understand what you're saying, but if you are attempting to speak for me, please don't. Thank you.

I think the point was that there are two orthogonal issues. One is sex addiction, which is why the site is here, and the other is homosexuality. Straight men don't understand that the writer of that post feels entirely at home desiring men (me neither, I had to go read it again) and wants people on the site to just forget about whether he's desiring a man or a woman, and view him as just another sex addict even if he should choose to recover to be a happy homosexual. An almost impossible request, but he got it off his chest.

ehrliche.bochur wrote on 05 Aug 2018 04:13:

I never said I support a homosexual lifestyle. It saddens me that you missed the entire point of my post. And in terms of JONAH, they were shut down by the US government for doing illegal practices. I cannot condone their services ever.

mzl wrote on 05 Aug 2018 10:43:

But there's a way to ask for it, no?
Please re-read that comment of yours on Shlomo24's thread. It was an "ouch" sentence

Ok I raise my hands in defeat
Whateva

You sound like one a kid that lacks connection with friends / wife, so they seek all and any attention, whether negative or positive

If myself or growup or Cordnoy or Dov (ma'alin bekodesh) point something out, you just sweetly keep on posting as though nothing happened, and oh, by the way you gotta add something sweet like "cord' is in a bad place" as you say

The are many Sex Addicts here that are in SAA
You should start a new thread for all those that are in NAA


Im not saying this to be derisive to you, although it may sound harsh. I'm a soft guy, however you need some softening too.
Its good sometimes just to look in the mirror and see the reality for what it is, oh and don't forget to smile!!

Wow, it's been some time since my last post. I felt the need to post this in light of the SSA section of the forum being shut down and an email thread among some GYE peeps that emerged afterwards discussing it.

While I am saddened that the SSA section was shut down, because it certainly helped me in pre-recovery, I understand that people were using it for the wrong reasons. Would I still like for it to exist? Definitely. I think that it can exist under the right circumstances. Up until this point, the description of the SSA forum had some language about "moving towards healthy heterosexuality." That description really bothers me. For many people, myself included, changing one's sexual attractions are all but impossible. I personally went to conversion therapy for 3 years and it did not change my attractions at all. Therefore, I take issue when that seems to be a goal of the SSA forum. Additionally, I suffered a lot of trauma from those years of therapy, and I only realized it when I got out of it. For 3 years, the message I received was that I was internally broken and defective, that there's something wrong with me and that's why I'm gay. I still suffer from that trauma, even though I've been sober for a while and been going to healthy therapy for over 2 years. I've also done a fair amount of research about those who went to conversion therapy, and many seem to have my experience also. I know plenty of guys who were in the conversion therapy community and the vast majority of them received no decrease in their heterosexual attractions or they are openly gay. At the time, I would have been an active supporter of the therapy, but I was completely clouded by denial. I didn't realize there was another way to deal with my sexuality without trying to change it.

In program, I've met many people who are homosexual. (I'm refraining from the use of SSA because, for me, it's a term that supports denial. Additionally, the Webster definition of "homosexual" is one who has homosexual feelings.) My Sponsor is one of them. Many of these homosexuals are living straight lifestyles and Torah lives also. None of them, to my knowledge, are in conversion therapy. How could this be? The answer is acceptance. They accepted themselves as gay/homosexual and they realized that this isn't something that's going to change. But they were ok with that. They learned to love themselves fully, even with their sexuality, and they found ways to live to their morals while still accepting their sexuality. For many of these guys, they found that with a strong enough emotional connection coupled with sexual sobriety, they could perform sexually with their wives.

I am a full believer that everyone has a choice to live their lives the way they wish to, so long as they aren't hurting others. This includes those who wish to pursue gay relationships and those who wish to pursue straight relationships. I'm not God and I can't tell people what to do or what not to do. If someone is a homosexual and wants to pursue heterosexual relationships, I wish them success. It's a hard journey, but if one has the right systems in place, I have seen it be done. If one wants to pursue gay relationships, then I empathize with their desires and I can understand where they're coming from. To each their own. But what I will not do is support practices that are harmful and traumatic. The reality is that conversion therapy AS A THEORY ( I cannot stress this enough) may have some logical basis. I know that I wasn't "born" gay (I was sexually addicted to heterosexual lust for about 4 years before my homosexual attractions developed) and I certainly believe that there are psychological components to my sexuality (along with genetic/hormonal components). However, conversion therapy as a therapy was incredibly damaging to my development and true self. And I am not alone with this, there are many more people who are right here with me. The fact is that conversion therapy is being banned all around the globe. If the majority of Western society is coming to realize that this therapy is harmful, and my experience certainly validates that fact, then I think I will side with them on this issue. For GYE to put forward a message supporting such practices hurts my soul.

To treat homosexuality as an addiction, which GYE was very much doing, is abhorrent to me. Homosexuals, including myself, need to be treated with love, tolerance, and patience. Not treated as broken vessels. I only got consistent recovery when I learned to love myself, and I believe that's true for everyone. The fact that I lust after men and Shmerel lusts after women is a non-issue when it comes to treating sexual addiction. The more we make it an issue, the more it will hold people back from recovery. I needed to stop watching porn because it was destroying my life, whether it was heterosexual or homosexual.

Do I believe that GYE should be a safe space for those who are homosexual? Yes, I certainly do. There is so much shame among Orthodox homosexuals that they need a place to talk about it openly and learn to accept themselves. I think that the there should be a message of sorts that explicitly states GYE isn't a place of judgement, rather a place of recovery. But if we are going to approach this momentous task, then it must be done right. Sadly, I don't think GYE was doing it right in the past.

I've felt this way for a long time, but for various reasons I did not post my views on this website. I think it's time. Again, I want to repeat that I support ALL choices, so long as they aren't harmful, and I believe that certain homosexuals can accept themselves as homosexual but still pursue a heterosexual lifestyle, given they have a lot of help and support. But I would never want anyone to endure the trauma that I received, and am still going through, by being in conversion therapy. It took me a very long time to realize that Hashem loves me with and without my attractions. It is not an aveirah to have homosexual attractions (only to act on them) so why, as Torah Jews, are we trying to change it? Especially when there's so much probability that things will go wrong. It took me a long time to understand that Hashem gave me my attractions for a reason and it was not a mistake. (I can't count the number of people in program who have confided in me about this subject, simply because I'm willing to be open about it). It's time that we turn the chapter, or maybe restart the book, to help our fellow brothers.

mzl wrote on 02 Aug 2018 12:35:

1- Its hard for me to understand what u wrote above, that you are 'a true yid because you upset the recovery bigshots or 'barons'. Your comment seems petty, at least at first blush. But more importantly, you are again doing what I referred to earlier in an email that I don't feel you dealt with fully enough: you are writing in a way that is designed to get under people's skin. I believe you know this full well and bet that it's the way you deal with most people in your life. By giving people titles ('the barons of sexual recovery') you are more likely to annoy someone. That's not nice and it's not a great way to learn new things, either. Furthermore, coming back to earth a bit, I doubt you pissed anyone off. You just expressed a few controversial opinions - that doesn't upset most basically mature people, especially if it's not about them. Only when you begin giving names and silly titles to people, do you usually 'piss them off' as you put it. You're entirely entitled to act like a kid, but I'm just calling you on it here because I'm sure that an intelligent and analytical man such as yourself will hear these simple suggestions and take them to heart.

But more important to me than all that stuff, is this:
In your post quoted above, you are using the term 'addiction', but I think you don't really mean addiction. I think you really mean 'desire'.

Now, why do you keep doing that, chaver? Addiction is not equated with desire, on many levels. I know that GYE literature and members often interchange them, but that's not what 12 steps literature says, it's not the experience of the addicts I know, and it just muddies the water. 

We can clarify some differences between addicts and non-addicts if you don't know any, if you want. We can also demonstrate many differences between tayvoh/desire as it is described in yiddishkeit vs. addiction as it is described by addicts who use 12 Steps (and by experts in the field of psychology), if you want.

So I suggest that when you mean 'bad/sinful desires', you just call it that. And also that when you mean 'not masturbating/using porn in order to keep halocha' then you would be clearer just calling it that. 

2- Your discussion about the halachik status of masturbating is apt to get lots of attention but is unhelpful for addicts nor even for most non-addicts among this crowd. It is also misleading. This is because our overwhelmingproblem isn't sperm-wasting. Every chronic, fantasizing, masturbater is really aware of this (or can easily be helped to admit it). The 'sperm coming out' is actually the least of our problems...it's just that it's the most hurtful part for many of us because of two reasons:

1- it is incontrovertible proof that we really screwed around and acted out our lust fantasies: stuff came out, something actually happenedthat we can't just ignore or pretend didn't, the way that we swept our porn use under the rug so many times ('click', "Whew, I'm glad that mistake is over!"); 
2- The ejaculation and orgasm end a cycle for us! "The only way we knew to really be free of it was to do it," as SA's white book puts it so well. That being the case, we miss it. We know it's over...at least for a bit. We have bittersweet relief that is mostly bitter.

Our basic problem is behaving idiotic and childishly. We know it's so, because we hide our behavior so deeply. Practically all the married guys among us are even hiding it from our own wives - the person who is supposed to be our most trusted confidant...and who usually thinks she is! We who hide our adventures and failures from our wives and all others, do it for two main reasons:

1- We are terribly embarrassed by the stupidity and childishness of our behavior and of our amazing failure at stopping it; 

2- We are sub consciously aware that if she or anyone close to us would find out just what we are doing and how we are doing it, that publicity would severely jeopardize our access to our past-time...it is very, very precious to us, even more than we realize. So we fiercely protect it, all Teshuva gemura-hopes notwithstanding. 

The guys here who are in some form of recovery (whether 12 Steps or others) and are clean, are always here to help those GYE posters who are finally ready to get real help for their problem. Hiding behind a username and being 'open' with other people who are also hiding behind usernames, is of no long term value. It's essentially like being fully open and honest to a cow. "I'll be honest and open to you because you can't figure out who I am," is not the way to get real help for any real life problems, especially one that involves deeply entrenched, long-term habits. Especially ones that are connected to a thing as deep and confusing as sexuality is!

The way that most non-addicts who are frum deal with this type of problem is often based on Torah, for theirs is essentially a religious issue.  But most addicts who are frum do not succeed based on Torah, for theiri problem is essentially a derech eretz one. And 'derech eretz kodmah laTorah', as chazal tell us. The 12 Steps isn't Torah, but derech Eretz and, as such, it can help many addicts whether they are frum, or not. And they need to be worked in the proper culture, with true openness and honesty together (in-person) with other safe people who truly understand and are clean. This is obvious to serious people who have any real, serious living-problem...they know that they can't get the best help on the phone or from a book, and they try to meet in person with the best people. This is true in yiddishkeit as it is in health, business, or mental health. And addiction is no different. For people who are serious, this is dealt with in a real way, of course.

Hatzlocha considering some of these ideas, and all the best to you, chaver!

Sky Is The Limit wrote on 03 Aug 2018 00:59:

I know a psychological way to achieve the same thing. Shoot me an email if you don't find a supplement that works for you.

I have supplemented many thin's for my porn addiction. I tried learnin', sports, game playin', meetin's, prayin', book readin'. Each one by itself did not work the greatest.

However, as a cumulative effort, I found that there ain't no greater supplement than livin' life. It's been workin' for quite some time.

On another note, I think my first post on gye (some 10,981 posts ago) was lookin' for a supplement that I can spike my wife's diet coke with that perhaps would increase her libido. There were some ups in this time span, but basically holdin' the same place, except I ain't lookin' any longer.

Guys, let me know of any supplements or medicines that you find helpful to fight off porn addiction, I am really curious about this.

So this is a list of herbal medicines that are supposed to lower the libido in a male. The only one I can tell you I used when I was quitting Porn was Valerian. However I took it for other reasons. But hey?! maybe its what helped me make my way through the addiction, lol

Rehmannia

Ligistrum and Skullcap

Hops and Valerian

Chasteberry

Sky Is The Limit wrote on 03 Aug 2018 00:07:

Yes.

Sky Is The Limit wrote on 03 Aug 2018 00:07:

Never heard of it. Like a medicine?

Hey everybody, I was just looking into supplements that can help people with porn addiction. Has anyone had any experience with them?

lionking wrote on 02 Aug 2018 12:04:

You should be zoche to rule over your addiction like a lion.

Hi mzl,

You must be going on a high speed train. I missed your train of thought, a long while back and can't jump back on. But hey, I'm addicted (at least to reading!). I still read every single word you write. Keep them coming, if it helps you.