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14 Mar 2019 10:42

Trouble

Shnitzel and kugel wrote on 09 Sep 2018 03:25:
mazel tov!!

This conversation took place today between my yetzer horag (yh) and yetzer tov (yt)

Yt: wow! Wow!
Yh: what's the wow?
Yt: what do you mean? I just reached 90 days clean today on first try!
Yh: so what? you still had these lusting thoughts from time to time..
Yt: well that wasn't intentional
Yh: but your only clean based on gye's  terminology, you still subconsciously look at woman and fantasize
Yt: so what? I didn't act out for 90 days and our action is what we can control, we can't have complete and constant control over our thoughts
Yh: so many guys reached 90 days and still fell, so what are you celebrating?
Yt: tommorow is the future I'm just focusing on the present!
Yh: I still haven't given up on you
Yt: neither have i
Yh: I'll put more effort to get you to fall
Yt: and I'm counter attacking and putting much more emphasis to stay clean.
Yt: just the fact that I'm clean for 90 days consecutively, shows me that I can survive without acting out.
Yt: I'm going to tell everyone that they too can defeat you
Y"h: oh man! He's actually winning me
Y"t: great! Hopefully moshiach comes right away and hashem will shecht you finnaly so we wouldn't have to constantly fight you!

For all those that haven't read my whole thread, I'm a 22 year old single Bochur, non addict and bh just reached 90 days on first try, one day before Rh! Definitely will have a totally different Rh like never before bh!

What keeps me going is, 
1) hashem helping me out! (Miracoulsy found gye just over 3 months ago)
2)the huge desire to get rid and to put an end to this after all these years
3) the 90 day challenge, iyh my next goal is to reach 200 days clean (thanks to the advice from hhm)
4) seeing that so many normal people have this struggle and I'm not a low life for having this issue
5) people's inspiration and talking to people

Wishing all of you a sweet clean and happy year!!

Is this still your program?
Category: Introduce Yourself
13 Mar 2019 03:07

OTR

Idk what that has to do with the OP topic. But on that note, you are making an excellent point. Junk-food life should be copyrighted asap. 
I know someone similarly who is engaging in similar behavior. On the inside when you get down to it, no they are not happy. Having spoken to a few "swingers' and 'open marriage' people, it seems that none of them indeed really feel good about what they are doing deep down. Personally, I find this sort of life style tempting. If I found someone I really felt was a balanced and happy person, I would have a hard time ignoring that. Just being honest. Aye.. but the Torah says xyz.. I know.. I am just saying I would have a hard time ignoring that if I saw someone who was emotionally balanced and well engaging in that lifestyle. It would cause me to think - 'what about me'.. 

The reality most of the time though is that the person has one or multiple things driving them toward that activity and really needs help. Much the same way like we need help as addicts. They may not be sex addicts in the way we are, but there are emotional drivers (painful ones) behind the fun sounding lifestyle. That doesn't mean at all they are shallow people. It means they are hurt and consuming junk food instead of healthy sexual experiences.
Category: Break Free
13 Mar 2019 01:34

Hakolhevel

Wondering what to call yourself is just another excuse to keep wallowing in the mud. 
13 Mar 2019 01:21

Trouble

EscapeArtist wrote on 13 Mar 2019 01:08:
AAAaaaaAAAaarrrGGGhhh!!!!!! (Any addicts out there relate to that statement?)
I was wasting time at work & some woman got stuck in my head; eating at me for hours, till I surprisingly came very close to Z"L & stopped (whatever I was doing) abruptly. I was too scared to check if any drop did actually come out... I'm still hoping to get out of this rut & back to where I was a week ago...
Usually once lust comes this far through the door though, it sticks around at least for some coffee & cake... maybe even long enough for some woodford...sigh.
Didn't update my chart for today yet. Not sure what to call myself...

Call yourself an addict and move the hell on, and please stop worrying about that drop.
13 Mar 2019 01:13

doingtshuva

you probably need some TEQUILA?
13 Mar 2019 01:08

EscapeArtist

AAAaaaaAAAaarrrGGGhhh!!!!!! (Any addicts out there relate to that statement?)
I was wasting time at work & some woman got stuck in my head; eating at me for hours, till I surprisingly came very close to Z"L & stopped (whatever I was doing) abruptly. I was too scared to check if any drop did actually come out... I'm still hoping to get out of this rut & back to where I was a week ago...
Usually once lust comes this far through the door though, it sticks around at least for some coffee & cake... maybe even long enough for some woodford...sigh.
Didn't update my chart for today yet. Not sure what to call myself...
13 Mar 2019 00:21

ColinColin

Don't hate yourself for being an addict.
Love yourself because you can control your behaviour.
11 Mar 2019 17:12

EscapeArtist

Hakolhevel wrote on 10 Mar 2019 06:57:
Define normal?


By normal I mean having the frame of mind in sync with the situation... let a trip to the secretary be just a trip to the secretary, a funeral just a funeral etc., without the addict-brain kicking in (automatically or not, I have no idea). 
Anyways, my wife had to go out of town for 3 days, leaving me with a bunch of adorable kids & a not-so-adorable addict-brain... Generally a recipe for disaster, but trying to stay in touch with GYE & SA friends & do stepwork (never mind all the other work I have to catch up on...), so far I'm pretty ok, ברוך השם!
11 Mar 2019 15:41

OTR

I am trying to define that myself and those words did come to mind..
 Emotional affair.. That could be. And that is wrong. 

But on the other hand, since we started shmoozing I am clean and porn free pretty much for about two months. So what do I make of this? It is definitely filling a need for me that caused me to struggle for many months even after having a filter and being more or less under control with acting out.

IN any case the point of my post was NOT to say that any type of affair is ok. It is that this situation is not ticking my "I am an addict and need to workn my recovery defenses", it is ticking my - "I am a Jew and a moral human being nad this is wrong to do for other reasons" defenses.  

There is a difference. And if I had an ideal solution I would want to purge the lustful elements from this friendhisp I am having and make it only about the positives for me. I blieve that she feels the same and did not come into this wanting an affiar. Nor does she really feel it the way I do. 


(UNrelated to this part of the conversation but through writing here I have totally clarified that what kills me is porn and acting out together. Until a few months ago I was masturbating sometimes more sometimes less, but it wasn't bothering me so much.  I mean feeling I was in the throes of addiction wasn't what was happening. I wasn't falling apart inside or outside. I felt a little bad as a Jew, that's true, but as far as feeling obsessed with masturbation all day... that wasn't happening. that is a big realization for me as to what dehumanizes me and what my enemy is.
Category: Introduce Yourself
11 Mar 2019 02:35

Trouble

OTR wrote on 11 Mar 2019 02:28:
Uh oh.. now I am in trouble.. or trouble is in me.. I am not sure what you mean by first half or second half. but they are definitely connected as I have all of this going on inside me right now. 

The bottom line of what I am getting at is that there is obv something wrong with having a relationship behind my wife's back. Morally, ethically, -It is a sin against my wife so to speak.

The religious parts that are wrong with it, are NOT a sin against my wife. They are a sin against God. 

Niether of these things, in my feelings are a clash with my sobriety in the way that porn is. A baseless, strictly animalistic desire with no holds barred. 

This is not to justify an affair, but to identify what I find wrong with it. At the same time, the conversation and thoughts that have come out of the relationship are helping me stay sober. My wife asked me lately, what I was doing that was making me so much calmer and relaxed. I do better with one of my problem kids... A lot is going smoother and so I am thinking out loud here in teh forum to write it down for myself.

Your post had two thoughts.

1. About Jewish and addiction and shoteh.

2. About affairs, escorts and marriage.
Category: Introduce Yourself
11 Mar 2019 01:30

Trouble

OTR wrote on 10 Mar 2019 22:49:
So this is out of left field on my thread. But relates to conversations I was having with someone offline. it is not a theoretical question. It is actually quite lmasseh. 

I am sick with an illness called addiction.

Jews can not waste seed or watch porn.

I dont have the keilim as a Jew to hold back on that because I am sick.

Just like Jews must wear tefilin. And people with no arms can not be punished for not wearing tefilin because they don't have the keilim to fulfill that mitzva, I feel I am also not punished or guilty perse for acting out. I may be guilty for putting myself into situations where I know I will act out. But of the actual viewing of porn and masturbating I don't feel guilt. 

That comparison is not the greatest, as it refers to an aseh, whereas acting out is a lo saase. So in religious terms that may not add up entirely.

Toward that end, I have come to believe that I am shoteh with regard to lust and acting out. A shoteh is not obligated in mitzvos. I dont have another way to put it. I am without daas when it comes to this.

I have no guilt as a Jew or at the most, minimal guilt for acting out as a Jew. I have made peace with masturbation and porn as a Jew. I do it. It's done. I go daven and learn and keep moving..

But I feel demoralized as a human. ANd for that I need to stay away from it because THAT demoralization kills me- my self esteem- my peace of mind.. That is where I hurt and where I start to hurt others. And truthfully it is not really so much masturbation that impacts me in this way. It is PORN+masturbation. That is the killer for me. Those two together are the death of my feeling like a human being. Although either one on its own is half-a-hell. And porn without masturbation is not possible in the long run for me anyhow. 

On the topic of having a relationship with someone other than my wife the logic continues. If it is not a relationship of baseless lust. But it is in the context of a thoughtful relationship it is not acting out to me.

Let's say I was not married.. would the relationship be a lustful relationship or not?

If I was seeking a prostitute to have sex with, an escort or a dancer in a bar, then yes it would be lustful no matter if I was married or not. JUst like porn is lustful wether I am married or not. Either way that act ignites my lust and circumvents my seichel. 

If imagining I was not married this relationship would not be a lustful one, then why does being married automatically make it a lustful one?
My marriage doesn't bear on the 'lust' aspect of the relationship. Rather, an extramarital relationship is wrong for other reasons apart from lust.

One reason is because it betrays the trust of my wife. Trust is part of truth, and if she trusts me it is wrong to betray that trust. The other reason it can be wrong is taht it is against halacha. But that too is not a sobriety issue for me any more than keeping shabbos is a sobriety issue. It is an unrelated, system of my religious values.

This issue is further complicated by the fact that talking to this woman right now has actually made me not want to act out for almost two months. No internal struggles, not counting, white knucking. It's not happening. 

I really really really like the first half.

The second half I'm not sure I understand, but let's not go there now. Is there a connection between the two halves?
Category: Introduce Yourself
10 Mar 2019 23:56

Tzvi5

"Can you share what you did?"
See essay enclosed.
                  "Addiction: Reality or Myth

In this essay we discuss the basis of addiction and its solution. We will take a look at the concept in Chassidus of the mind ruling the heart and its application for addiction.

The primary source of this essay is the Rebbe Rashab's explanation of intellect creating emotions.

Definition of Addiction

The basics elements in the addictive process are as follows:

a craving for an activity substance or behavior that brings temporary relief to the user. [1]

the belief that he can use his "drug of choice" like other people without the consequences, forgetting the pain and shame of even a day or week ago. [2]

the resulting cycle which leads to more and more destructive behavior which can cause psychological issues, injury, or even death. [3]

Upon the subject of addiction, the book Alcoholics Anonymous [4] is an important authority. The book was published in 1939 when the group contained one hundred members. Since then the book has been reprinted four times and membership is an estimated two million in one hundred ninety countries. The message the book gives is one of recovery from addiction based off following a set of spiritual principles to recover from a life of resentment, fear, and grudges, and to allow the grace of G-d to expel the desire for alcohol (or other addictions). The book was met with wide approval from the medical and religious communities.

According to Alcoholics Anonymous the spiritual elements of addiction are the alcoholic's fear, resentment and grudges towards others.

To paraphrase their teachings:

-We set on paper our grudge list of those who harmed us, whether it was our ambitions, self-esteem or pocketbook. We mentioned those whom we were upset with, and what was the root of our anger. Was it our self-esteem that was hurt, or our pocketbooks, ambitions, or personal relationships? These parts of our emotions are the flaws in our makeup that need to be discarded in order to live a happy and useful life.

-In order to be free of the spiritual disease, resentment needs to be let go of, it's the thing which causes alcoholics to drink more than any other causes. Fear is also one of the great flaws in our spiritual makeup, it corroded our inner being and had to be dealt with. It proved that "self" had failed us; self-reliance, self-confidence never solved our problems for we were still afraid.

-Self-centeredness and selfishness are the root of our problem, and must be uprooted if the alcoholic wants to live.

-The alcoholic must be willing to take inventory of himself, and discard all flaws of the makeup of self. If he is to have any recovery, he must be willing to clean house. His encounters with others, his day-to-day life needs to be examined and worked through, to find his selfishness, fears, grudges, resentments, and find his own part, clean his side of the street and forgive those who wronged him. [5]

This brings out the theory that the basis of an addict's addiction is the inability to handle life like healthy normal human beings. He is constantly resentful at other people, and can't handle viewpoints other than his own. He is constantly sore from the "wrongs" done to him and is fearful of things not turning out how he planned.

An Addict’s Mindset Can be Compared to That of a Child

The above mindset is comparable to the emotional state of a child who is resentful at others who wronged him by not following his wishes. He is fearful of not receiving the award he hopes to win. He is selfish and does not wish to coexist with a viewpoint that is against his. His emotions do not give room for ideas, opinions and situations that are against his.

We find support for this notion from Tanya which states:

"A child by nature desires things of little value and gets angry about petty things, because his intellect is minute, and therefore the emotions born from his mind are petty." [6]

This shows that due to the lower level of intellect exhibited by a child his emotions are more foolish. The natural mastery of the mind over the heart is missing. In Tanya we see that human intellect by nature can rule one’s emotions:

"A human being by nature of his birth, can with the will in his mind, control the desires of his heart, to not think, speak, or do, what his heart desires." [7] (I.e.: a person can control his emotions with the power of his mind.)

We further see from Samech Vav, that since emotions are created from the mind, the latter contains natural mastery over the heart's emotions:

"The mind creates emotions through thinking about the positive or negative qualities of a concept, and therefore has the ability to control the emotions that are created. The brain’s control over the feelings are manifested in two ways: first, the emotions do not get overly passionate in an out of control manner, and second, two opposite emotions can exist simultaneously.

Therefore, a child who lacks control over his emotions will have emotions that are out control, and will not agree with an opposing viewpoint."[8]

As was stated earlier the mind contains within it the ability to control the emotions and feelings of the heart. It can prevent the emotions from making one uncomfortable and can handle a viewpoint that is different than his own. However, a child whose intellect is not developed will not control his emotions and will be uncomfortable when life does not go his way. His emotions are not kept in check to allow room for other people's feelings, or opinions if they differ from his own.

In our scenario the addict's mind is not developed, and therefore he is upset, resentful, and cannot deal with life (which fuels his addictive behavior with which he looks to medicate himself.)

The Solution Would Be a Developed Mind

The solution would be for him to develop his mind which would allow him mastery over his feelings and negative emotions and allow him to be feel comfortable in life.

One of the proven ways of developing the mind is through comprehending one's studies. A good method to use is to learn with a study partner, and repeat over in his own words all that he learned to the partner. The advantage is that each time he uses his own words, the concept becomes more and more clear in the mind of the learner, allowing him to fully comprehend the subject at hand. As one studies and comprehends what he learns, the brain becomes stronger and can use the inherent ability contained within the mind to control the emotions of the heart.

With the mind becoming developed and its intellect growing, one will gradually become able to control his emotions, and will be able to be comfortable with viewpoints other than his own. The entire basis of the addiction will dissolve.

Contrasting to Other Approaches

The steps which AA uses entail reviewing one’s day to day encounters with other people, and if any resentment comes up to see his part in the situation. The advantage of developing the mind is gaining mastery over the emotions, instead of working them through after the fact. This allows one to have an enjoyable life all the time, as opposed to having times where he is not comfortable.

[1] Alcoholics Anonymous, p 16

[2] Ibid, chapter 3

[3] ibid

[4] See Forward to Alcoholics Anonymous 4th addition

[5] See Alcoholics Anonymous pg. 63-70

[6] See Tanya chapter 6

[7] See Tanya chapter 12

[8] See Sefer Hamaamorim 5666, Pg 481-483, Leil Beis D'chag Hasukkos 5667"


Plus from my experience the lust thoughts are mostly automatic ie: they come by themselves, so if you gain control of your mind (See attached essay) you will easily be able to ignore them.
Category: Introduce Yourself
10 Mar 2019 22:49

OTR

So this is out of left field on my thread. But relates to conversations I was having with someone offline. it is not a theoretical question. It is actually quite lmasseh. 

I am sick with an illness called addiction.

Jews can not waste seed or watch porn.

I dont have the keilim as a Jew to hold back on that because I am sick.

Just like Jews must wear tefilin. And people with no arms can not be punished for not wearing tefilin because they don't have the keilim to fulfill that mitzva, I feel I am also not punished or guilty perse for acting out. I may be guilty for putting myself into situations where I know I will act out. But of the actual viewing of porn and masturbating I don't feel guilt. 

That comparison is not the greatest, as it refers to an aseh, whereas acting out is a lo saase. So in religious terms that may not add up entirely.

Toward that end, I have come to believe that I am shoteh with regard to lust and acting out. A shoteh is not obligated in mitzvos. I dont have another way to put it. I am without daas when it comes to this.

I have no guilt as a Jew or at the most, minimal guilt for acting out as a Jew. I have made peace with masturbation and porn as a Jew. I do it. It's done. I go daven and learn and keep moving..

But I feel demoralized as a human. ANd for that I need to stay away from it because THAT demoralization kills me- my self esteem- my peace of mind.. That is where I hurt and where I start to hurt others. And truthfully it is not really so much masturbation that impacts me in this way. It is PORN+masturbation. That is the killer for me. Those two together are the death of my feeling like a human being. Although either one on its own is half-a-hell. And porn without masturbation is not possible in the long run for me anyhow. 

On the topic of having a relationship with someone other than my wife the logic continues. If it is not a relationship of baseless lust. But it is in the context of a thoughtful relationship it is not acting out to me.

Let's say I was not married.. would the relationship be a lustful relationship or not?

If I was seeking a prostitute to have sex with, an escort or a dancer in a bar, then yes it would be lustful no matter if I was married or not. JUst like porn is lustful wether I am married or not. Either way that act ignites my lust and circumvents my seichel. 

If imagining I was not married this relationship would not be a lustful one, then why does being married automatically make it a lustful one?
My marriage doesn't bear on the 'lust' aspect of the relationship. Rather, an extramarital relationship is wrong for other reasons apart from lust.

One reason is because it betrays the trust of my wife. Trust is part of truth, and if she trusts me it is wrong to betray that trust. The other reason it can be wrong is taht it is against halacha. But that too is not a sobriety issue for me any more than keeping shabbos is a sobriety issue. It is an unrelated, system of my religious values.

This issue is further complicated by the fact that talking to this woman right now has actually made me not want to act out for almost two months. No internal struggles, not counting, white knucking. It's not happening. 
Category: Introduce Yourself
10 Mar 2019 19:36

Tzvi5

"
Well today I had unfortunately a family levaya... trying very hard to be all somber & reflect on the life of the נפטרת & how she lived a life full of שמחה & she had such a לב טוב & she was always WHOA CHECK OUT THAT PRETTY RELATIVE did she get a new sheitel? She looks great! Oh wow look at THAT one...! I wish my wife would... ... ... oh right I'm at a funeral for crying out loud... At least at the cemetery I was able to control my addict-brain right? duh. I'm shoveling dirt into the grave & all I can think is how manly do I look in front of all these women watching... רחמנא ליצלן.
Does this business ever get better???"

I would theorize you're not "actively" thinking those thoughts. Rather it's like, they're coming to your mind by themselves. 
10 Mar 2019 06:57

Hakolhevel

EscapeArtist wrote on 07 Mar 2019 19:24:
Hello again Chevra,
So I like to fool myself & think that I'm actually on the road to being normal, as BH I find myself in situations that would have previously sent me running away to "never-never land", & now I don't feel any chemical reactions whatsoever... kinda nice this feeling of freedom...
Well today I had unfortunately a family levaya... trying very hard to be all somber & reflect on the life of the נפטרת & how she lived a life full of שמחה & she had such a לב טוב & she was always WHOA CHECK OUT THAT PRETTY RELATIVE did she get a new sheitel? She looks great! Oh wow look at THAT one...! I wish my wife would... ... ... oh right I'm at a funeral for crying out loud... At least at the cemetery I was able to control my addict-brain right? duh. I'm shoveling dirt into the grave & all I can think is how manly do I look in front of all these women watching... רחמנא ליצלן.
Does this business ever get better???

Define normal?

Hatzlacha!
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