Workingguy wrote on 01 Apr 2019 04:52:

I was actually thinking of replying in the same manner, for you are indeed correct as to my intention, but then I said, "who cares?"

mggsbms wrote on 29 Mar 2019 16:05:

Harav Trouble Shlita was not, cv, advocating half measures. He was saying that who cares how GYE says the rules? Do what works for you. 

So I'm in day 2 without any porn or masturbation, but I haven't had any real urges yet. But still, I'm so addicted that i've noticed that my go-to position for my hands is in my pants. Like it's not even sexual. it seems ive went there so many times that now it's just my hands "automatic" relaxing position. This shows me even more that I have a problem that needs to be fixed so I need to make it to 90 days

Trouble wrote on 29 Mar 2019 02:10:

Actually I do, "half measure etc". 

OTR wrote on 28 Mar 2019 15:00:

Who says Torah can't build a person into a normal/healthy human being? 

Trouble wrote on 29 Mar 2019 02:10:

So it seems someone told the principal, I got called in and received a thorough spanking. Oh well. But seriously, my name is trouble. It's not like I am #lordsaveus, or #mohamedtrulylives, or #gyehelperspecial613; it's trouble for God's sake!

Ok, that's done. Regarding this issue, gye is not the torah, not the New testament or the old one. Whoever wants to abide by their 90 day rules, go right ahead. There are some who have written extensively on this site how that entire challenge can be crippling to some. I'm not entering that arena, for now. But if one decides that he's gonna do it, but modify it a bit, go right ahead. Who really cares what it says in rule 16 article IV Sextion 329b? If an admin cares, let them worry about it.

And one final point, I was accused by some ninja-clad, library stalker that i am a troll. A troll is defined as someone who purposely says something controversial in order to get a rise out of other users. Hmmm.... Maybe, but let me ask you #mr.tanktopbeerbbellyunshoweredadidastargetwifithief, where are you hiding out? Have you made yourself known to people on this forum? Do they text you on your personal number? Have you emailed them from your business account? Have you shared your LinkedIn information? Have you met anyone for ice cream or coffee? Like markz, gevurah or otr? Now, it happens to be that those three fellows I haven't met personally, but we do a lot of talking and chatting, and the next time I will be in Beer bottle crossing (idaho), Whiskey dick mountain (Washington) or Dildo (newfoundland) respectively, we made up to meet.

Take care ya'all

Cords, 



I don’t get it- basic Derech Eretz wouldn’t allow porn, correct? That’s what everyone here says. Then is there a “tzad” that Torah could? What is the Torah if not building on, and elevating, that basic Derech Eretz to make ממלכת כהנים and בנים למקום? 



If Derech Eretz doesn’t allow it, the Torah definitely wouldn’t. Because the Torah is that and more. (צניעות מחתול, פיוס  מתרנגולת).



Your question is specifically what I’m coming to address. Derech Eretz has to come before because it’s the bedrock-the operating system if you will- upon which we overlay the Mitzvos of the Torah to now take that Derech Eretz even further. We go from the basics and take the human qualities and we elevate them even more till the lucky ones can get to חסידות נקיות פרישות etc. 



But let no one think that the lessons they need in order to stop porn and are learning from Derech Eretz are there and not in the Torah. They are in the Torah too- not some sort of weird, lofty, spiritual message that’s out of reach. They are telling you what you’ll find in Derech Eretz and more. But if you haven’t done the Derech Eretz, you won’t be able to access it. 



I’m protesting that, for all the people who need to learn it from some place else than the Torah, they should never think the lack is on the Torah’s side. All the messages are in there. It may not motivate them, it may not be relevant right now, but they’re all there. 



Dont know if this clarified at all, but either way, this is philosophical, not practical. Practically, I’m all in favor of doing whatever works for you best ומקבל את האמת ממי שאמרוAgree wiht teh first two paragraphs. The later half I would say like this- 



Not sure if I agree. Torah is instructions. The manual begins assuming you have all the peices in place and ready to assemble. One of those pieces is a complete starting level human being. The fact that the Torah endorses the concept of a complete human being deosn't mean it is meant to instruct a person how to be that. It (imho based and what I got from all the rabbis I ever spoke to) means that in order to assemble a spiritual ladder (Torah zeheirus zerizus.. or whatever system you work with of growth) you need that person to start. 



On a deeper level, if I wanted to see the derech eretz thing as part of the 'Torah' it needs to apply to all people. Not just the mamleches kohanim.  I am talking about a normalcy that (although rare in the world) applies to humanity not just yiddin. THAT I can hear IS rooted in the Torah. Because the Torah is the blueprint for creation, all of it and all people and creatures involved. So yeh on that level Torah can be the source of decency in my understanding. Whatever ways we as Jews are 'different' mamleches kohanim - goy kadosh... has no shaychus to my thinking on masturbation and porn other than that if I do those things I have transgressed. And that causes me pain. No amount of focusing on those specifically Jewish concepts helps me, or anyone I know who feels they are addict/obsessed or somehow drawn to these actions in a different more volatile way, stay sober/clean/away from doing it. But focusing on that 'human element' (not an esoteric  etheral removed spirituality... It's NOT spirituality!  It's humanity!) does help me. So I’ll gladly say- that whatever helps you is what you should use (provided it doesn’t mean chatting with another woman

doingtshuva wrote on 29 Mar 2019 01:07:

Who really cares?

ColinColin wrote on 29 Mar 2019 00:19:

I'm not telling you what to do, just wanted to clarify that according GYE and the 90 day chart watching porn in considered a fall.

These are the rules: guardyoureyes.com/tools/90-day-chart/rules

What constitutes a "Fall" to require restarting the count?
There are "slips" and there are "falls". "Slips" do not require restarting the count. "Falls" do require restarting.
A "Fall" is one of the following things:

1. Intentional masturbation (with finish)
2. Intentionally viewing improper sites
3. Intentionally calling inappropriate telephone numbers
4. Intentionally seeking out and reading erotica

In regard to number 2 (and 4), if someone saw something by mistake and then got a little bit carried away and kept looking at it, or even if someone saw a link and couldn't resist clicking on it but then catches themselves within a few seconds, that would only be considered a "slip", not a "fall". However, if someone decides to actively pursue viewing, that would be considered a fall.

ColinColin wrote on 29 Mar 2019 00:19:

Fellow's been clean for five months, learning mussar, talking to guys, minding his eyes, goes to the John one day and develops an itch; hmmm.... Feels good, begins the act, two minutes later he orgasms. Me think that's not a fall either.

Neil

Am sorry to hear you watched porn.
But that is not necessarily a fall.
I regard a fall as masturbation to orgasm.

Occasionally I watch porn for a minute or so, realise where it might be heading, and then thanks G-D stop myself.
To me that is a minor fall which does not break my count.
It does not mean that it is OK to watch porn, but for people on this Forum, we may well have minor slips and stumbles along the way.
We might be addicts.
And small relapses, or large relapses, are often  the nature of addiction.

But I know that different people regard different things as a fall.

Breathe deep.
Try to work out why you watched the porn.
Increase positve acitvities.
Shabbat Shalom

Workingguy wrote on 28 Mar 2019 03:57:

Agree wiht teh first two paragraphs. The later half I would say like this- 

Not sure if I agree. Torah is instructions. The manual begins assuming you have all the peices in place and ready to assemble. One of those pieces is a complete starting level human being. The fact that the Torah endorses the concept of a complete human being deosn't mean it is meant to instruct a person how to be that. It (imho based and what I got from all the rabbis I ever spoke to) means that in order to assemble a spiritual ladder (Torah zeheirus zerizus.. or whatever system you work with of growth) you need that person to start. 

On a deeper level, if I wanted to see the derech eretz thing as part of the 'Torah' it needs to apply to all people. Not just the mamleches kohanim.  I am talking about a normalcy that (although rare in the world) applies to humanity not just yiddin. THAT I can hear IS rooted in the Torah. Because the Torah is the blueprint for creation, all of it and all people and creatures involved. So yeh on that level Torah can be the source of decency in my understanding. Whatever ways we as Jews are 'different' mamleches kohanim - goy kadosh... has no shaychus to my thinking on masturbation and porn other than that if I do those things I have transgressed. And that causes me pain. No amount of focusing on those specifically Jewish concepts helps me, or anyone I know who feels they are addict/obsessed or somehow drawn to these actions in a different more volatile way, stay sober/clean/away from doing it. But focusing on that 'human element' (not an esoteric  etheral removed spirituality... It's NOT spirituality!  It's humanity!) does help me. 

sorry to hear about the rough day they are the worst 

I recently came across a book about peace of mind  by reb zelig plisken and opened up 5o a chapter where he recconemnds an exercise where you think or say repeatedly or at different times of the day "Great thoughts Great feelings Great words Great actions"
its really been helping me maybe it could benefit you 

hatzlacha! komt!

Well, its been almost two months since I started my journey to recovery and all I can say is that its been a very transformative period. I started out by learning as much as I could myself and from others about the symptoms i was exhibiting. As it turns out, I am an addict and not just someone who would occasionally act out of compulsion. This of course was a very hard admission to make, but with time it became impossible to see it any other way. However, as the initial shock of this admission to myself starts to fade, I almost feel a certain happiness that I now have an understanding of the problem and can therefore work the solution. I was introduced to SA meetings and the 12 steps about a month ago, and although I have a long long journey to go, it is the first time I see a solution that may just work. 

For me, the reason i desperately need to end my addiction is because I was wasting soooooo much time doing nothing. For example I would spend hours on instagram viewing status updates trying to find a good picture and I couldnt miss it cause it gets deleted forever. And i have so many things I want to do, but never had time. So what is fueling my 90 challenge is more about getting more time in my day and so i am not a prisoner to lusting