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29 Oct 2019 00:06
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cordnoy
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transforming wrote on 28 Oct 2019 23:54:
Thank you all for your input. It means a lot to me. I am sure this post will raise some eyebrows, yet I will share with you my thoughts. In answer to those who suggested therapy or medication, medication is most certainly something that I would like to avoid. With the widespread deadly drug epidemic that is going on throughout the world, including the frum community, the last thing I would want to do is develop a reliance on drugs. Many drug addicts began with prescribed medications, but the reliance on drugs eventually led them to using other non-prescribed dangerous drugs. So medication is not an option for me. This may sound like a poor decision, but at this point, I firmly believe medication is just not worthwhile for me. Now, to the recommendation of therapy, I would say as follows: While I have never seen a therapist for anxiety, I have seen therapists for other unrelated reasons in the past. I have seen "solid" therapists who "specialized" in the areas that I needed at the time. Based on my experience with therapy, coupled with many conversations that I had with other therapy patients, I must say that I have little belief in therapy. Before you jump on me, let me please explain myself. I certainly believe that therapy has a degree of legitimacy. However, as with everything in this world, I believe that there is also a tremendous amount of flaws and falsehoods both in the therapy philosophy, and particularly in the therapy practice. Nothing makes me believe this more than the people who I see are becoming social workers, psychotherapists and even psychologists. I hate to say this, but I see plenty of friends who are cruising through school, obtaining degrees in the mental health field, yet these individuals are truly inept and incompetent, and I would never entrust them with my mental health. By extension, I have little faith in any mental health professional, because after all, since the mental health "professionals" that I personally know are inept; why should I believe that the ones that I don’t know all happen to be competent mental health professionals?! Let me be clear: I am sure that there are some fantastic mental health professionals who can really help me. I just believe that they are so few and rare, that the frustration and financial costs of jumping from one therapist to another therapist, until I find the right therapist, will make me sadder, more anxious and even less hopeful about ever growing out of this. Indeed, I once spoke to a man who is very affiliated with the mental health field, and when I told him why I don’t feel motivated to seek a therapist, he responded; "well that's therapy; sometimes it takes years to find the right one". I can only speak for myself, but I sure have no interest to jump from one office to another office, sharing my life story with each "professional", pay them $150 a session for "years" until I "find the right one". That lifestyle is just not for me. Some may argue that this is a poor decision, and I definitely understand them, but I just feel this way very strongly. And that is what leads me to this forum. Sometimes, tips and even mere sympathy from fellow sufferers can help me further curb my anxiety in ways that I did not know of beforehand. I welcome further discussion, dialogue and analysis of these points. Thank you!
Extremely well written. Thought out, clear and on target! Halevay oif untz.
While I don't agree with some of your assumptions and sentiments, your opinion is the one that counts. Our family has had positive experience from therapy. Myself included.
I wish I would know about treatin' anxiety from the basement couch, but I do not.
Godspeed to you
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28 Oct 2019 23:54
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transforming
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Thank you all for your input. It means a lot to me. I am sure this post will raise some eyebrows, yet I will share with you my thoughts. In answer to those who suggested therapy or medication, medication is most certainly something that I would like to avoid. With the widespread deadly drug epidemic that is going on throughout the world, including the frum community, the last thing I would want to do is develop a reliance on drugs. Many drug addicts began with prescribed medications, but the reliance on drugs eventually led them to using other non-prescribed dangerous drugs. So medication is not an option for me. This may sound like a poor decision, but at this point, I firmly believe medication is just not worthwhile for me. Now, to the recommendation of therapy, I would say as follows: While I have never seen a therapist for anxiety, I have seen therapists for other unrelated reasons in the past. I have seen "solid" therapists who "specialized" in the areas that I needed at the time. Based on my experience with therapy, coupled with many conversations that I had with other therapy patients, I must say that I have little belief in therapy. Before you jump on me, let me please explain myself. I certainly believe that therapy has a degree of legitimacy. However, as with everything in this world, I believe that there is also a tremendous amount of flaws and falsehoods both in the therapy philosophy, and particularly in the therapy practice. Nothing makes me believe this more than the people who I see are becoming social workers, psychotherapists and even psychologists. I hate to say this, but I see plenty of friends who are cruising through school, obtaining degrees in the mental health field, yet these individuals are truly inept and incompetent, and I would never entrust them with my mental health. By extension, I have little faith in any mental health professional, because after all, since the mental health "professionals" that I personally know are inept; why should I believe that the ones that I don’t know all happen to be competent mental health professionals?! Let me be clear: I am sure that there are some fantastic mental health professionals who can really help me. I just believe that they are so few and rare, that the frustration and financial costs of jumping from one therapist to another therapist, until I find the right therapist, will make me sadder, more anxious and even less hopeful about ever growing out of this. Indeed, I once spoke to a man who is very affiliated with the mental health field, and when I told him why I don’t feel motivated to seek a therapist, he responded; "well that's therapy; sometimes it takes years to find the right one". I can only speak for myself, but I sure have no interest to jump from one office to another office, sharing my life story with each "professional", pay them $150 a session for "years" until I "find the right one". That lifestyle is just not for me. Some may argue that this is a poor decision, and I definitely understand them, but I just feel this way very strongly. And that is what leads me to this forum. Sometimes, tips and even mere sympathy from fellow sufferers can help me further curb my anxiety in ways that I did not know of beforehand. I welcome further discussion, dialogue and analysis of these points. Thank you!
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27 Oct 2019 04:30
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grateful4life
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It's the main book used by addicts in the 12 step recovery program of SA.
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25 Oct 2019 00:21
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higher
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GrowStrong wrote on 16 Apr 2019 11:46:
There are a couple of things i would like to address on this thread
Firstly I have heard a few A.A. speakers talk against porn and masturbation as not being spiritual behavior and a form of infidelity against their wives - these are non Jews talking about something that they’re not addicted to.
its an assumption to say that 99 percent of non Jews do it just like I wouldn’t say that 88 percent of Jews do it.
another point i would like to raise is that my experience with SA has shown me that those chronic porn masturbators who disclose this addiction to their wives have just as hard a time with their goyishe wives as the Jewish ones do
so really I feel there are a lot of generalizations in this thread which have little to do with reality.
as my sponsor told me once God hates lust whether it’s a Jew or a non Jew who is lustin’
whats more of an interesting topic for me is why God created something that he hates but I think it’s easy to chalk that up to the awesomeness of free will and bechira
This is relevant to the above post (i think)
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25 Oct 2019 00:18
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higher
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see the qoute below to relate to this.
this ones an oldie but a goodie.
1. Non Jews are brought up in mixed sex environments and are encouraged to have girlfriends, and there is def. a large mass of non jews that think it is fine and even healthy to masturbate. (go ahead and google it, my filter wont allow me to give you links but im sure you can get a dozen or so ''respected sources''.)
2. I recently heard on a major public news network the anchor interviewing a religious non jewish activist who was trying to advocate against the dangers of porn. the anchor asked him "but wouldnt even you agree that thats JUST a ''religious'' problem"? (meaning its ok in the non jewish world to say that) as for the activist, he stammered and hemmed and came up with a very PC comment that didnt hammer home how it can destroy marriages and relationships. (something about how addictions are not healthy....uh...hello?!)
p.s. this ''major activist"s (religious nuch!) response further solidified how he has to be pc and tread thin ice on this topic-it seems like they both felt that this attitude (if you can call it that) is accepted in the non jewish world!
so in terms of ''reality''.
the social, religious, and general community standards of yidden are against porn.
on an intellectual level.
on a spiritual level and on a common sense level.
our societies operate diametrically opposed to the 2 points mentioned above.
the non jews-i dont think so. the info doesnt lie. (and im not even talking about the massive lman sfos harava es hatzmeiah, see ramban, thats going on as a result of all this splurging n tayvah in terms of to'eva and what not-ya gotta be living in a cave to say that THATS as accepted by jews as is by non jews...)
do WE have porn addicts?
unfortunately, yes.
do we have a Y''H? since adam and eve!
are yidden more mesugal to chet? could be. zeh leumas zeh. (see maharal netzach yisroel twords beginning).
will the media celebrate when they finally get thier hands on a sex scandal or some yid that nebach was busy going to dungeons and stuff? sure. (thats pathetic by the way. FAKE NEWS! in terms of what they are trying to portray...)
but i think our societies have a definite advantage over the outside world and what goes on in SA rooms, or spoken by (A.A.?) speakers (see qoute) (which i have no blasted idea what but....) it def. isnt promoted in the outside world. (rather its demoted...)
and i dont think that Hashem hating lust period has anything to do with whether it makes sense that its more common amongst non jews or not.
Im proud to be a Jew and I like that as a society we are more sensitive to inyanei kedusha.
I dont think thats a generalization.
i think
feel
and breathe
that reality
because it surrounds me day in and day out.
this might not have so much relevance to this thread (i think it does) but the topic was dead for a while anyway...
p.s. i wanted to add one point (in an edit).
it was recently discussed on the forum how people that are extremely spiritual zealots (in this regard) can be found acting out in many, even extreme ways. im not going to discuss that here but im not talking about extremities here. im talking about someone growing up within the general influence of the frum community.
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24 Oct 2019 14:10
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higher
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sleepy wrote on 24 Oct 2019 07:33:
higher wrote on 18 Oct 2019 18:50:
sleepy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 17:59:
cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:59:
Tzvi5 wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:45:
cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:25:
Dov says another great (in my opinion) point: if these guys actually, truly, really, honestly believe that this is the worst sin in the world, they wouldn't do it. They'd find some other addiction to get involved with. Otherwise, they are crock full of sh*t.
If one, as a prerequisite to masturbatin', would be compelled to steal, say lashon hara, punch someone in the face, eat milchigs twenty minutes after fleishigs ( God forbid), they wouldn't do it. Why?
Because all sins are not on his to do list.
You missed the point (and perhaps I wasn't clear in the pronoun). If that (the requirements I laid out) was the prerequisite, they wouldn't do it (the masturbation).
higher wrote:
"but i believe this qoute is not addressing what i said."
i think it was still not addressed
whats ''it''? the dov qoute? it was. see above. if ''it'' means what i said (about mz''l being the worst sin- )mggsbms, (say that 3x fast), (i think), addressed it.
it wasnt addressed,meaning: the talk was if zl is the worst aveira or not, mr. c quoted mr. d saying its not the worst aveira because the 8 baby murder seemed to be ,in mr d's mind worse,so how can we say that zl is the worst(i think its called circular logic), and the second quote (on the question if zl is the worst) was if THEY really believe zl is the worst they wouldnt do it, end quote,what THEY believe or not has nothing to do if it is the worst or not. so the post wasnt addressing the matter under discussion (if zl is the worst aveira or not)
kapish?
see above.
i said that mggsbms addressed it.
i dont know if i agree with him in terms of the kittzur, see there.
some good stuff that you wrote btw especially the last one about intimidating. theres lots more to say about the approach to opinions on gye in general, but you make a good point.
personally i feel a chat or forum is a good way to have a debate even with aggressive types of guys because alot of the screaming and noise and intimidation is blocked out. (no, im not saying dov is aggressive).
this can be a thread of its own....
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24 Oct 2019 02:29
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Doitforhashem
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you have to really want it. I literally have screamed out and cried tears to hashed to help me and teffilah really works. let me know
today was very good overall. i did go into a food store and there were a lot of girls there that were dressed more modern and it was a little tough but i kept and telling my self that "your not an addict" and it was good. looking great so far and we are making progress
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23 Oct 2019 21:12
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Hashem Help Me
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simchastorah wrote on 23 Oct 2019 07:30:
Hi I just signed up! I was addicted to pornography as a teen, and still slip up every once in a while, but the real issue is that it's never ever far from my thoughts, if my wife accidentally leaves her computer open (mine has webchaver) i either struggle for my life not to fall, or .... fall. please please give me chizuk i want to be a simple person like i was when i was a child.
Welcome! Stay connected with the chevra here - start by posting some more (non identifying) info.....
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23 Oct 2019 07:30
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simchastorah
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Hi I just signed up! I was addicted to pornography as a teen, and still slip up every once in a while, but the real issue is that it's never ever far from my thoughts, if my wife accidentally leaves her computer open (mine has webchaver) i either struggle for my life not to fall, or .... fall. please please give me chizuk i want to be a simple person like i was when i was a child.
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23 Oct 2019 01:15
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higher
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cords wrote:
Dov says another great (in my opinion) point: if these guys actually, truly, really, honestly believe that this is the worst sin in the world, they wouldn't do it. They'd find some other addiction to get involved with. Otherwise, they are crock full of sh*t.
If one, as a prerequisite to masturbatin', would be compelled to steal, say lashon hara, punch someone in the face, eat milchigs twenty minutes after fleishigs ( God forbid), they wouldn't do it. Why?
i respect you tremendously cords.
not that that makes a diff to anyone.
but i believe this qoute is not addressing what i said.
all right.
almost.
(i wasnt quoted so i cant say it was intended to either).
This is actually dragging me into the area that i didnt want to go in.
the klausenberger rebbe zt"l, (in his collected shiurim chumash rashi-''shefa chaim), brings exactly this idea as the reason why it IS possible to do teshuva for us.
because we dont really relate to the choimer of this sin. and even if we intellectually KNOW that its the WORST sin (yeah the whole deal) we still dont understand it (or feel it) im pretty sure he says thats why er and onan were punished with misah min hashomayim
(something unmatched, that the pusuk immediately describes the punishment unlike any other sin in the torah including murder-almost like the proverbial ''lightning bolt'') is because they understood the gravity of the sin.
obviously tzaddikim in tanach and their actual nisyonos are beyond our comprehension and thier sins are relative to thier high levels (no one should think they were just low individuals, chas v'shalom. but regardless it is written for us to learn from on our level as well)
but all that has NOTHING to do with that it IS indeed the worst sin in the torah.
perhaps we are judged (more) leniently because of the reasons i mentioned above. but the actual gravity of the sin for its own (value?) remains. there is more to go into including the moreh heter aspect but i think this suffices.
by the way have a great shabbos everyone! and yom tov!
p.s. as i am editing, at the risk of being disingenuous, i just realized that nadav and avihu were also immediately punished for thier chet. i believe that its different over there but i dont want to debate that now and i think its off topic. maybe another time.
plz see bold. did i miss something? isnt that more or less every aveirah btw? how can u do it if u know its wrong? ruach shtus, moreh heter no? maybe even a therapy-like moreh heter! i wasnt responding to dov directly see above and i assumed that this conversation of why a person would still do it is self understood. in regards to the teshuva of rav moshe, i have not seen it in a while, but doesnt he actually say that in terms of teshuva-its from the easier aveiros to do teshuva on? i dont remember.
now just to preempt those that will jump on this and say that how can it be so chumur if its the easiest to do teshuva on- i think you have to bring a proof that the spiritual implications of an aveirah and the teshuva process have to be in sync. i dont see that as difficult to understand. the spiritual implications have nothing to do with rav moshes teshuva btw, and that was more or less the discussion.
it would be lovely if we could internalize all the musur and knowledge that we know about aveiros. then wed never sin and all be big tzaddikim. sadly, by most of us, thats not the case. still striving though...
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18 Oct 2019 21:01
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Hashem Help Me
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This thought provoking conversation gave me the push to look up a few of Rav Moshe Feinstein zatzal's tshuvos regarding hotzaos zera. He writes that the terminology used by Chazal is "lav davka", however he sharply points out that it is an issur d'oraisa, contrary to what some would like to assume. He also says there is an added issur when it is done by hand (as opposed to by hirhur), and even in the case of medical need where there may be heterim given to collect zera, he writes emphatically that it should not be done by hand..... He also refers to hotzoas zera as an issur chamur.
I would be curious what a posek would say regarding "looking the other way" about masturbation, if by doing so one can break the pornography habit (which for many is more permanently damaging to their image of women, can destroy their marriage, can chas v'shalom lead to "the next step", and creates more long term addictive issues). There are therapists who use such a mehalech successfully, and eventually deal with the masturbation too. They claim rabbonim have permitted this, but I am not privy to who those rabbonim are.
Regarding Dov's comment. I assume whoever is upset by it does not know Dov or his style. I am sure he was not chalila questioning Chazal or the Kitzur. He is an ehrliche fellow who believes in Torah and that it may not be muchlefes. His very blunt challenging approach makes one take a real good look at himself and convinces him to stop hiding behind facades of frumkeit and belief. He wants to know if YOU really understand and accept what Chazal mean. So all he is asking how do you reconcile the fact you would not dream of chalila murdering a child, yet you do (or did) consider masturbating which you supposedly believe is worse. I apologize Dov if I misrepresented you, and I apologize to anyone that finds anything I wrote offensive.
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18 Oct 2019 20:27
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Iampowerless
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Welcome you sound like a nice guy and like most people here, our main struggle is anxiety/depression and we have been acting out in order to relieve ourselves of the anxiety and depression and then we feel really stupid and our self esteem takes a huge hit. Then we are left with anxiety/depression and extremely low self esteem and since that feeling doesn't feel so good we go and act out again even though last time we acted out it made things way worse for us.
We are trying non stop to run away from feelings/emotions and as such we strengthen them but if we learn to be mindful and realize they are just false feelings and "we just ride those waves" the feelings will recede by themselves and will weaken. The challenge is they feel so strong and as such finding activities to do to calm ourselves while feeling the urges like a partner to speak openly with gym etc, have been the key for many of our recoveries.
In regards to "gods chesbonos" it's not our job to try to be god and try to figure out why he is doing what he is doing. Listen he put you down in a challenging world and he gave you anxiety and depression he understands the challenge you are faced with and he sees your desire to stop, you need to work on your side of the aisle, but let god take care of his side of things he is extremely wise and he knows what he is doing. Please don't play god buddy. We don't know at all his cheshbonos
 Love Yankel your addicted friend
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18 Oct 2019 18:50
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higher
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sleepy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 17:59:
cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:59:
Tzvi5 wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:45:
cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:25:
Dov says another great (in my opinion) point: if these guys actually, truly, really, honestly believe that this is the worst sin in the world, they wouldn't do it. They'd find some other addiction to get involved with. Otherwise, they are crock full of sh*t.
If one, as a prerequisite to masturbatin', would be compelled to steal, say lashon hara, punch someone in the face, eat milchigs twenty minutes after fleishigs ( God forbid), they wouldn't do it. Why?
Because all sins are not on his to do list.
You missed the point (and perhaps I wasn't clear in the pronoun). If that (the requirements I laid out) was the prerequisite, they wouldn't do it (the masturbation).
higher wrote:
"but i believe this qoute is not addressing what i said."
i think it was still not addressed
whats ''it''? the dov qoute? it was. see above. if ''it'' means what i said (about mz''l being the worst sin- )mggsbms, (say that 3x fast), (i think), addressed it.
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18 Oct 2019 14:55
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mggsbms
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higher wrote on 17 Oct 2019 17:21:
cordnoy wrote on 17 Oct 2019 01:36:
Trouble wrote on 16 Oct 2019 23:12:
Trouble wrote on 10 Oct 2019 14:24:
so, I said the parenthesis in zakkah yesterday - several times. the first time, before yk actually started, I was a bit distracted and I skipped over it. heck, I never actually "did it." I mean, it was there for the taking, but for some reason I held back. I even told her about those damned parenthesis! she understood. but then once yk got rolling, and I had the opportunity to say it several more times, I actually said those words. I told God and myself that it really made little difference. yes, the frummies and the midrash quoters will spew that stuff about actual cohabitation with an idolatress, a gentile woman! and even one who is not your actual partner. I am actually reminded now that she was in fact Jewish, a bas mitzvah, and all. got called to the Torah, wow! but I reasoned that this justification crap was going too far. you think my wife would go for the technicality that there wasn't penetration!? bottom line, I was too close for comfort, I mean it was comfortable and more, but it's not a position I wanna be found in. I certainly don't wanna be caught that way, but besides that, I'd rather not even entertain that possibility, although I actually found those thoughts slipping in several times throughout the day. am I being clear? I hope so.
I'd like to make a second half post to this and that will be about the zakkah in general. why all the women, Keri, etc. talk? but I'm running outta time now. sorry for the non-capitalization. my notes app doesn't do that for some reason.
my second half... what's up with all this looking at women business? this was before the advent of the internet. hell, Larry Flynt wasn't even conceived yet. porn!? tank tops, thongs and bikinis? the women were dressed better than today's men. men wear tighter and shorter pants than the women of yesteryear. was there even a chance of observing a glimpse of skin centuries ago? what were they all looking at? did they need an asifah in the Vilna ghetto that the men should walk on the other side of the city? what were they fantasizing about? I thought all the experts told us that porn is ruining our marriages with false expectations. these guys were erect every other day and they never saw a centerfold in their lives!
and what's up with only the men? the women never got the hots for those young studs!? when did that start? is it an abnormality of the new generation? why don't they need to cry for masturbating under their covers? and dare I venture into controversial areas. what happened with all the homosexuals? did they show up for tefillas zakkah? were they disinvited? were they so frowned upon that they weren't even allowed into the synagogue?
several conclusions from this perverted lowlife:
1. it's not the internet, it's us!
2. it ain't the internet, so cut it out with the filters (maybe).
3. women didn't masturbate.
4. men didn't look at other men ( as a rule).
5. cheating was rampant.
6. unless you're majorly addicted, just wait for zakkah.
7. let me have it, pile on!
Trouble does bring up some valid points. We might not like the way he spells 'em out, but they do need to be addressed and cannot simply be dismissed. I, sadly, will not be that guy. He does make certain assumptions which are just that - assumptions, not facts. He cannot deny that there is a gravity to these actions although they might have ( not-correction higher's) been rampant. And, obviously, the internet generation has made this entire issue so much more prevalent, for everyone.
listen trouble brought up private chat so i will as well. i just want to add 1 little point in terms of the gravity of this sin (masterbating).
before i do that i want to make a disclaimer to all the readers that throughout the doros, every gadol that has written about this topic has stated it IS possible to do teshuvah on this aveirah. so no one get yiush. the following is technical for the most part.
i related to trouble how even if this sin wasnt prevalent in earlier doros, its such a big aveirah that it warrents being front and center in tefillas zakkah. (there are also many bechinos to this aveirah but im not getting into that) to support myself i said over the famous zohar saying how its there isnt teshuva for such an aveirah (again, remember the above.) mr. trouble seemed to be unimpressed with my bringing of the source. i am unsure if it was because of my lack of bekius in zohar, my lack of understanding in zohar, or my lack of understanding in general, or all 3.(which are true btw) regardless, i found something in the kitzur shulchan aruch written for simple jews like me. so here goes. (excuse my poor lashon kodesh)
''it is forbidden to emit semen in vain and this sin is worse then ALL of the sins of the torah.'' etc. see there (siman 151) as he is mayrech. he also brings various tikkunim there.
sound pretty darn harsh, no?
so yeah-no proof from zakkah that this was prevalent.
the fact that it was done-at all-is deserving enough.
Maybe someone wrote this already, the meforshim on shilchon aruch write that it is lav davka, since it says in sefer chasidim that one should masturbate if he is at risk of doing the act with a nidah or erva.
I was thinking that if that's the case, then maybe if someone is at the risk of looking at porn, which one could argue is a more serious aveira, he should rather masturbate. I think this is a serious shaila which should be presented to a more harah.
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18 Oct 2019 13:59
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cordnoy
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Tzvi5 wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:45:
cordnoy wrote on 18 Oct 2019 13:25:
Dov says another great (in my opinion) point: if these guys actually, truly, really, honestly believe that this is the worst sin in the world, they wouldn't do it. They'd find some other addiction to get involved with. Otherwise, they are crock full of sh*t.
If one, as a prerequisite to masturbatin', would be compelled to steal, say lashon hara, punch someone in the face, eat milchigs twenty minutes after fleishigs ( God forbid), they wouldn't do it. Why?
Because all sins are not on his to do list.
You missed the point (and perhaps I wasn't clear in the pronoun). If that (the requirements I laid out) was the prerequisite, they wouldn't do it (the masturbation).
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