simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 11:17:

Great questions. Really thought provoking.

I dislike the question of "addiction" because I feel like wondering whether or not I'm an addict wasted a non-insignificant amount of time for. The way I look at it now is there's a hierarchy of tools. Why not start with the easy stuff (posting, accountability, F2F) and if they don't work then worry about SA. The easy stuff can be pretty darn powerful.

That being said, I never did SA. But I have gained so much from Dov's perspective on the struggle. 1000% worth your time to listen to the workshops linked in my signature (give the big book a read too while you're at it.) 

I'll give you some super quick highlights of what I think I got from it that I think anyone can benefit from. This is something I'm just trying to put into defined thought now so forgive me if I'm senseless. Here goes:

1) Hashem will help me get out. 2) The fact that he hasn't helped me enough (as I viewed it) until now isn't a proof because until now I was not open to the help. 3) The problem is not porn the problem is me and the way I live my life. 4) The main work is opening up my life to Hashem's help - being ready to give up my ratzon and all that entails so that I can live my life with Hashem. I think that's the main yesod very roughly.

Other important ideas too like: Get really honest. If you're just talking to yourself and the computer you're probably not being really honest. Many other ideas too. And we're talking about a lifetime of avodah, not a few minutes work. But someone who lives with the closeness to Hashem created by living the life described will be in a very good place long term.

Re: rock bottom. See Dov's nuclear reset post (which is not true all the time, but a very good point.) What I've been noticing recently is porn caused me pain, but the pain was outweighed by the pull to it. Now that the pull weakened, thinking about not wanting to go back to the pain is somewhat motivating. I try to focus on the pleasure of being clean, not the pain of being dirty though.

wantingbetter wrote on 21 Nov 2024 16:36:

Just wanna say, that I was always very confused about myself.
Some tekufos were very shtark and others I was failing terribly.
Till I heard the term "A Periodical"
Some of the founding members of AA had years of clean periods [a story in the big book describes someone who had 25 years clean - until he retired and died before 60 via overdose]
Sometimes we maintain sobriety because circumstances make it easier - the big test is when the situation gets rough - that's the litmus test between Sobriety and Recovery

simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 15:22:

Shalom Chaver,

Here is an excerpt from Chapter 8 of Rabbi Naftali Horowitz's book You Revealed. I hope you find it enlightening. There is much more surrounding this topic in the rest of Ch 8 and the nearby chapters. Kol Tov.
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"You" as Chooser
From the writings of Rav Dessler, we can derive another practical definition of "you" - the "chooser." All growth in life involves making good choices in the face of challenge and adversity - and "you" are the one who is choosing.
choices
Rav Dessler (Kuntress HaBechirah, Part 1, Ch.1) illustrates this idea with an example: A man smokes a pack of cigarettes a day. Every night, he wakes up with chest pains and vows never to smoke another cigarette again. When he awakens in the morning, his addiction soon makes itself felt and he craves a smoke. At first, he resists, but, as the craving grows, he says to himself, "I will smoke just one cigarette. After all, one alone can't hurt me," and he lights up. Not long afterward, the urge returns and he uses the same rationalization for the second one
and the third. That night, the pain returns and he repeats the vow. Were this man to experience acute pain immediately upon taking his first puff, he would surely give up smoking altogether. The fact that the pain is delayed allows the cycle of self-deception to continue as he tells himself that "one cigarette won't hurt me.”

Rav Dessler asks: What causes a person to adopt the fallacious argument of "one cigarette won't harm me," and ignore the truth that "one cigarette will lead to another," which he knows from firsthand experience is the reality? Rav Dessler argues that it can't be that the man's will to smoke is perverting his reasoning process, leading him to conclude that the pleasure of smoking makes it worth the subsequent pain. If that were so, why the self-deception of "one cigarette won't harm me"? He should simply smoke with the full knowledge that it will hurt later.

He concludes that there is something other than the two competing wills that determines his choice. That something else is the person himself. HE is the one who chooses to deflect his mind from the truth and adopt the fallacy that one cigarette won't harm him. He could instead say to himself, "What is the point of pretending? If I smoke this one then I will wake up tonight with chest pains." Instead, HE deceives himself into believing that it will only be one.

Rav Dessler bestows the title of "fools" upon those who claim that the will to smoke is the true cause of this ridiculous daily routine. He argues that the will to live is surely greater than the will to smoke and a greater will should overpower a weaker one. The person himself. however, has the power to deliberately ignore the truth and accept falsehood in its place. The outcome of this is that when a person makes the claim, "I smoke because I am powerless to stop," the response should be, "No, you smoke because you choose to and you have no one to blame but yourself."

Rav Dessler teaches that choice lies completely in our hands and there are no forces that control us. People who have never challenged the pull of their harmful physical desires won't ever be able to understand this, because they are convinced that they are at the mercy of those compulsive needs. Such people have never made a free-choice decision and live under the illusion that human action is controlled by external or internal forces.

With his poignant words, Rav Dessler brings forth an axiom held by successful people and lacking in those who are unsuccessful: "I am fully responsible for my actions because I alone am in control of choices." While there is a small subset of people who are choice- impaired due to various life circumstances, the majority of us are fully responsible for the choices we make.

People sometimes say things like, "I can't help myself. I am controlled by my anger/anxiety/fear/indecision/addiction/shortcomings," and the like. Blaming is a common theme in today's culture and it has perhaps even become socially incorrect to require that a person accept full responsibility for his actions. We may try to lay the blame on our society, upbringing, boss, weaknesses, addictions, or the "system," but we must realize that by doing so we are choking off any opportunity for growth. Successful people never hide behind excuses. We all make mistakes; the difference between success and failure is whether or not we take ownership of those mistakes. Even if in certain circumstances we may not be responsible for what happened to us, we do remain fully responsible for our responses and resulting actions.

To clarify- regarding what you wrote: 


Many of the people that I’ve been in touch with were very seriously involved . Many have decades of negative behavior that persisted through tears, prayer, therapy and more. That does not necessarily define them as addicts, though. And doesn’t necessitate the 12 Steps. And similarly there are many who had more moderate behaviors that they couldn’t shake, until they managed to. 

For example, read Ish Migrodno’s “Marriage From Gan Eden” story to read how deeply and terribly  mired he was, and then read his thread “Gardener of Grodno” to learn how he broke free. Vehkam’s “Work In Progress”. Lots of other less dramatic threads too … lots to learn. 

I don’t necessarily want to get into a discuss concerning the definition of an addict here. (There are a lot of different sh*ttos ). I think it’s important to know that many, many people were deep in the sticky, hazy darkness, on one level or another, for years. And have gotten out. 

As Redfaced wrote yesterday: Behind every thread of someone who has broken free is person who once thought that it was impossible. 

You can do it too. 
And I know you will, chaver. 

מאן דבעי חיים 

simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 15:57:

I think the fact that I went 6 months clean without pain is a strong indicator that I'm not. I'm asking what lessons there are to learn from those people who do identify as addicts.

@odyosefchai I'm sorry to be sharp but are you reading what I'm writing? I literally wrote something which is a proof that I am not an addict. Please read what I wrote.

simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 15:23:


What makes you think you are an addict?

I thought I was but now I realize I'm not. 

Obviously some people are and their process to recovery is completely different. 
But the vast majority of people here are strugglers (some severe strugglers like in my case) but not addicts

odyossefchai wrote on 21 Nov 2024 15:04:

I have b'h been in touch with HHM for the last 20 months around. We have had many talks. I'm not asking a question about whether I'm addicted, I think the fact that I went 6 months clean without pain is a strong indicator that I'm not. I'm asking what lessons there are to learn from those people who do identify as addicts. 

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Nov 2024 14:22:

Interesting I would have thought that most people here with who are let's say in the 1000 day ball park are people who were seriously involved before, maybe I'm way off.

I agree with your breakdown of the questions. 
I have seen in ספרים though I don't remember where that the forgetfulness is literally something supernatural which is to enable continued ניסיון. That being said it seems that there are people who remain motivated to stay clean because of how bad things got. I'm not sure how these two things fit. Maybe there is some כח שכחה that can be overcome and one must learn to overcome it, and those who really really suffered sometimes learn to access that deep layer of self that allows them to overcome the שכחה? I don't know, happy to hear your thoughts about it.

chaimoigen wrote on 21 Nov 2024 14:22:

I have to agree with Harav Chaim over here. 
For those who aren't addicts (even if we feel like addicts sometimes, and feel completely irredeemable, hopeless etc) it's usually not the case. 
Having a good shmooze with HHM very quickly changed my mindset. I'm not even sure how to articulate what he told me but his point was that I'm not addicted but I feel depressed and run to P for that yummy acceptance feeling that we don't know how to get from our wives. A short speech from him (and a few follow ups) made it clear that within a few short weeks, this whole (25 year) episode, can be very easily cleaned up. And it doesn't need white knuckling, knassim, abstinence or any other extreme measures. 
You should call him and he will guide you. 
It works. 

simchastorah wrote on 21 Nov 2024 11:17:

Loaded post with a lot of thought provoking questions. 

I am not sure some of the Hanachos are correct.  I personally have not found your bolded statement to be true in my experience here.  I have thankfully forged a network of GYE friends who have extremely long streaks BH and do not identify as addicts. It's possible that the sampling of my experience is only because those are the guys that I speak with, and message with, etc. But I am a pretty solid student of the forums, and I don't see your statement to be accurate in my experience.

[It [b]used [/b]to be the way you wrote, in the pre-HHM era of GYE. It seems from the threads that guys who were solidly stuck in the mud only got out by admitting they were addicts and working the steps. But more recently [probably "post HHM"] it seems that things are very different. There are dozens and dozens (probably more) of guys who were deep in and got out. The other programs and methods on the site are helpful, the forums, connections; the subsequent relationships and mentorships, the learned ability to create paradigm shifts and so much more , all this have contributed to many guys breaking free without SA. I learned a lot from reading about SA, probably everyone can. But I think the majority of  guys who come here can try other methods of breaking free first, with a lot of hope.
I say that after having spoken with and BH helping a lot of new guys, the way I was helped BH. I'm sure there are people who may pile on me now to point out that their experience is very different. ]

Much more importantly, with regards to your question - I think you are asking a few questions. Why don't the terrible feelings post-fall last. Why doesn't the memory of those horrible feelings act as a deterrent? What can I do to stay motivated long term? Does the answer depend on hitting "rock bottom"? On recognizing and internilizing that your problem is unmanagable? Are there other ways?   These are profoundly important questions. I can tell you what I think, maybe a bit later.
Probably the most important answer, maybe the only important answer for you, friend, is what you think.

Hang on. Day 18 is CHAI. Thats full of hope.
Here's a warm hand, from someone looking towards,
Chaim 

In SA we say a High Bottom or a Low Bottom - it doesn't really matter as long as you realize that the only way you have is to go UP.
I also don't know or really care if I am an addict or if a sex addict is really a 'thing' 
I do know that all the other solutions failed me and SA is a mehalech that has helped others worse than me, so there is a great chance it can help me too.
Rabbi Twersky writes that really the 12 steps are a [jewish] mehalch of living but only an addict who has no choice will do what it takes and pull through the rigorous program.
The importance of step one is to keep the motivation alive that I better do program or else I'm back out there [and die, many like to add]
Reb Dov keeps his handwritten step one in his knapsack and carries it around wherever he goes.

I don't say SA is a SUPERIOR program, but it is definitely a vey substantiated and solid one and as you say the results speak for themselves.
Sometimes a sponsor can help mirror and reflect ones unmanageability to reinforce one's rock bottom.

If you are struggling with lust and you believe SA may have a solution for you why don't you reach out to your local branch and try it out?

Hatzlacha

Day 18

I was thinking yesterday about the fact that when I have tkufos of improved kdusha they are usually precipitated by a sense of 'rock bottom.' As was this time (I truly hope that this is not just another 'this time' but whatever) where I fell a few times in one day, and the next day on my way home from the בית מדרש I said I absolutely need to do something today to stop that from happening again and I started posting again.

So I was anyways thinking about rock bottom, and then yesterday on a thread which was on fire the topic of rock bottom was brought up too. 

There is this amazing ability to completely forget or ignore the terrible way that acting out causes me (I'm going to say me because I'm talking about myself but I assume that this is true for all or most) to feel. If I would always remember how awful I feel from doing it it I would never fall again. But when the tayvah is there it's like all those feelings that I had, feelings of disgust, feelings of loneliness, feelings of dissapointment in myself, feelings of being disconnected from Hashem - it's like they happened to someone else. And only when I have hit rock bottom does the terrible feeling somehow become something that I can 'remember' also afterwards and use in order to change my behavior. But as time goes on and the memory grows more distant I forget, until eventually I may be c'v met with a nisayon and I say to myself "this can't really be so bad."

So maybe I need a way to remember the rock-bottom? I really don't know. Chazering it doesn't really help in my experience, but maybe i haven't chazzered about it the right way? I don't know. 

I have noticed that many, though not all, of the people on this site who have been clean the longest are people who identify as addicts באופן מיוחד, and have embraced the perspectives of SA. I am not at all convinced that there is some physical disease called being an addict, but I am sure that different people's underlying psychologic state which causes them to act out vary, and it makes sense that there should be broad categorizations of these states, and that one categorization could be called being an 'addict' more than another.

My question is, if addicts have it the worst, why do they seem to have the most success staying clean? Is it because they had the worst rock bottom, so the memory of how terrible it was stays strongest by them? Or is it that SA is just a superior program, and anyone who would join it would be that much more likely of staying clean? Or does SA only work for 'addicts'?

The nafka mina being what can I learn from SA to help me to get to that place of real change?

adam2014 wrote on 19 Nov 2024 11:41:

Shalom Brother Adam,

When you are feeling good that gives you strength to deal. What about when you deal - does that give you the strength to feel good?

All the best

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I know that I need to separate religion from spirituality. They are two different things. I just think back to the times that I have had this issue somewhat under control and they were times that my davening and eating Kosher and going to shul were going well. I think that when I am feeling good about my Judaism, it gives me strength to take on the other problems, if that makes any sense!

Whether of not I am an “addict” is almost irrelevant. The definition of the word has been so clouded by society, that I don’t even know what addiction even means anymore. I will for sure listen to Dov’s 12 step workshop. Thank you for sending it to me.

I am happy that I have been on here two days in a row. I feel that maybe, just maybe… I may be heading in the right direction again…

What you said about losing it all in 3 to 5 years, I think that is a generous estimate, There have been times that I have gone from the mountain top to the valley in a matter of days… I know that just giving in is not the answer… But Thank you for pointing that out.