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26 Aug 2020 09:56
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starting
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stillgoing wrote on 25 Aug 2020 00:42:
Captain wrote on 21 Aug 2020 17:41:
...."I am a person who is challenged by this and must be cautious and put in work, but I am not defective and permanently broke and I am not an addict for life."
That sounds much better than "I am an addict," which is usually interpreted by the person's brain as "I am an addict and I do these things always, and if by some lucky miracle I manage to reach 90 days clean, I'm still an addict and a tainted person."
Ahh, but it is a miracle.
I have a question. i assume you would agree that the classic shikur drunk who even drives drunk, or a real drug addict in a smelly alley is a bonafide addict, not just a bad habit.
Now this druggy and alcoholic then went and admitted that they couldn't stop on their own and were addicted. Then somehow they went to AA, or NA (Narcotics Anonymous), got sober and stayed sober for decades - the rest of their life. This story has happened to hundreds or thousands of people over the last 100 years. Now here's the shayla, (it works better if you say it in gemarah tune) According to what you were saying, maybe they got some lucky miracle and stayed clean for 90 days, but how in shoshan did they stay clean for decades? They were real addicts and admitted it! It should have been a self-fulfilling prophecy, they were tainted and would always fall, yet they built great lives after that..? Good kasha, no?
I don't think every addict has to consider himself an addict for life.
Perhaps that is one pro of live meetings with recovered addicts. It helps you change your brains way of thinking and you realise that you can use the 12 steps to break free.
For someone who is not going to live meetings and not practicing the 12 steps (or just the first 3), especially if he is not an addict I think this change of mindset is big help. It helps one be wary of situations that are challenging to his habit.
Certainly helps me, and everyone should do whatever works for them.
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26 Aug 2020 03:19
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Ihavestrength
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Grant400 wrote on 25 Aug 2020 22:03:
So for the past few days I'm forced to stay home for whatever reason. Bored out of my mind. I've been holding strong and haven't watched any movies. But I'm at the end of the line. I'm dying just to watch a clean movie. Military maybe...benign.
But I know it will start my addiction all over again and from there I'll start watching half the night again. Mostly I don't want to start being exposed again to all the shmutz in the "regular" movies which makes lusting inevitable. I don't want to give in! Please, anyone who has experience with this desire and addiction, I'd love if you can share something to help keep me strong.
I keep telling myself that I'm only going to do it for a short time, and only super clean stuff, and only, and only, and only, yeah right.
Grant
Hey Grant, I enjoy your posts and I think you add a lot to the forum. Since you requested feedback, I'll go ahead and do my best to provide it in a constructive manner. I think the issue here isn't really about the movies. You need a game plan for situations when you are "stuck at home." In the absence of a plan or schedule, most of us humans will choose to do the activity that is most stimulating and easy for us. In your case this appears to be watching movies. I would recommend developing a plan that for these types of days. The plan should feel "doable" as well as productive.
It sounds like you know that watching movies will not be helpful to you. Both from the perspective of your susceptibility to binge watching, as well as from the perspective that it tends to make your lust urges stronger. I know that for myself, anytime I feel I really need to watch something and I'm conflicted about it because I feel like part of my motivation is to lust, I'm better off staying away. Hope this is somewhat helpful and coherent. KOT!
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25 Aug 2020 22:33
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Markz
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Grant400 wrote on 25 Aug 2020 22:03:
So for the past few days I'm forced to stay home for whatever reason. Bored out of my mind. I've been holding strong and haven't watched any movies. But I'm at the end of the line. I'm dying just to watch a clean movie. Military maybe...benign.
But I know it will start my addiction all over again and from there I'll start watching half the night again. Mostly I don't want to start being exposed again to all the shmutz in the "regular" movies which makes lusting inevitable. I don't want to give in! Please, anyone who has experience with this desire and addiction, I'd love if you can share something to help keep me strong.
I keep telling myself that I'm only going to do it for a short time, and only super clean stuff, and only, and only, and only, yeah right.
Grant
Another Jew Tuber ‘suffering’ with you :-)
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25 Aug 2020 22:03
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Grant400
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So for the past few days I'm forced to stay home for whatever reason. Bored out of my mind. I've been holding strong and haven't watched any movies. But I'm at the end of the line. I'm dying just to watch a clean movie. Military maybe...benign.
But I know it will start my addiction all over again and from there I'll start watching half the night again. Mostly I don't want to start being exposed again to all the shmutz in the "regular" movies which makes lusting inevitable. I don't want to give in! Please, anyone who has experience with this desire and addiction, I'd love if you can share something to help keep me strong.
I keep telling myself that I'm only going to do it for a short time, and only super clean stuff, and only, and only, and only, yeah right.
Grant
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25 Aug 2020 18:27
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Captain
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No doubt there are many people in a large world who have succeeded at overcoming addiction. There are many people that have succeeded, and many people that have not. The question is not whether it's possible to succeed if the person thinks he will always be labeled defective. The question is whether for most people, that makes it easier or harder. And the bigger question is for each person individually, whether he things such an attitude will make it easier or harder for him.
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25 Aug 2020 18:20
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Captain
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I don't see a problem with a person who's an addict referring to himself as an addict. (I didn't mention otherwise, though others on the forum did. Perhaps they feel it's a problem. You can discuss it with them.) I just think that for many people, feeling that such a label is for life and can never be shed makes the struggle harder, not easier. Of course there are exceptions, but for many people they would be better off if they didn't think they were defective for life.
And even more obviously, you should do what works for you. So if that works for you, continue it.
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25 Aug 2020 10:00
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Im Tevakshena Kakasef
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O.K, time to post on my own thread again.
Recently I've been falling. Thank G-d over the last day or so I've pulled myself out of that hole and back on my feet. But I need to plan ahead.
I'm reentering my yeshiva home schedule. Fancy term I made up myself, basically means I'm going to be learning and overall much more busy for the remainder of Elull zman (I hope.) So I won't be going on GYE as much, but also less time for p&m.
I'll bli neder set a time in the week that I go on GYE, or if I otherwise feel weak or like slipping, or just want a chizuk.
I could do with some advice. At the minute, I basically don't have a filter. I have covenent eyes both accountability and filter on my laptop. But the accountability doesn't seem to pick up on many of the dodgy sites I've been on, and the filter is super easy to bypass. (I'd discuss how, and maybe you could give me suggestions how to make it less easy to get past, but I don't want to inform people how to bypass filters in a public setting.) So what should I do? Its pretty hard for me to tell my dad 'Hey, you know the filter you got me? I can get round it. I know because I did. Oh and the accountability software? That doesn't pick up on most of the shmutz I've been on.' So does anyone have any advice for me?
I've also debated just telling my dad about my struggle. Maybe not the full extent, but that I have seen, intentionally, dodgy stuff on the interner. Whats the general idea when it comes to telling parents? Or does it vary person to person to much to give a general rule?
Lastly an unrelated point. How does one know if he is truly addicted or not? I always have a nagging feeling like I could overcome the lust if I truly tried. But I've not managed in years! So when do I know if I'm an addict, and should start trying some new things?
Thanks for the help. Hatzlocha all.
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25 Aug 2020 00:42
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stillgoing
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Captain wrote on 21 Aug 2020 17:41:
...."I am a person who is challenged by this and must be cautious and put in work, but I am not defective and permanently broke and I am not an addict for life."
That sounds much better than "I am an addict," which is usually interpreted by the person's brain as "I am an addict and I do these things always, and if by some lucky miracle I manage to reach 90 days clean, I'm still an addict and a tainted person."
Ahh, but it is a miracle.
I have a question. i assume you would agree that the classic shikur drunk who even drives drunk, or a real drug addict in a smelly alley is a bonafide addict, not just a bad habit.
Now this druggy and alcoholic then went and admitted that they couldn't stop on their own and were addicted. Then somehow they went to AA, or NA (Narcotics Anonymous), got sober and stayed sober for decades - the rest of their life. This story has happened to hundreds or thousands of people over the last 100 years. Now here's the shayla, (it works better if you say it in gemarah tune) According to what you were saying, maybe they got some lucky miracle and stayed clean for 90 days, but how in shoshan did they stay clean for decades? They were real addicts and admitted it! It should have been a self-fulfilling prophecy, they were tainted and would always fall, yet they built great lives after that..? Good kasha, no?
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25 Aug 2020 00:28
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stillgoing
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Captain wrote on 21 Aug 2020 13:08:
.....I know that the 12 steps mentions the need to identify oneself as an addict,.... But is that really what they are saying, at the expense of having any confidence in out ability to fight, and at the cost that we view ourselves as people who will surely give in at some point- which will be a self-fulfilling-prophecy?
Hi Captain. (Gosh, I feel like I'm in the navy)
The 12 steps actually doesn't mention the word addict at all. Sexaholics Anonymous (who practice the 12 steps) do encourage each other to be honest about who they are. All of those who I've met in sexaholics Anonymous do identify as an addict, but only because they are. If one is an addict, they find that the honesty of admitting it helps them, and if one is not an addict but simply has a bad habit,- by all means - don't call yourself something that you're not. For someone who just has a bad habit there are a lot of easier ways to stop.
But as a caviot, 12 steps or not, let's just be really honest with ourselves. I'm sure some people reading this simply have a 'bad habit' as you say. These people will use gye's many tools, post on the forum and see results. Habits can be hard to break - but they're still only habits. Give yourselve a deadline and go for it.
I'm also pretty sure that there are some people reading this who actually are addicts.
Calling myself an addict is not an excuse, and it's not a self-basher. Its simply a recognition that my "habit" is a lot stronger then any of the tools that normally work for habits.
What I choose to do about my addiction is a whole nother story, but calling it a habit if its actually an addiction is similar to saying that Joe Biden is a young energetic clear-speaker - um, which is basically putting my head in the sand because I'd rather not face the alternative.
Kit,
sg
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24 Aug 2020 21:13
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Grant400
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Take a peek into Webster's dictionary. It seems habit and addiction is one and the same.
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24 Aug 2020 18:10
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starting
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I understand that addiction is actually a very extreme form of habit.
But if you are just watching porn or masturbation, it is a habit. If you are not able to stop without help, it is still a habit.
If you would put yourself into dangerous or totally crazy situations like doing it in public in a steady basis, and you are watching for many hours a day and feel like you would die without an hour of porn, that sounds like an addiction.
Just my understanding, what do you think/have you heard over the years?
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24 Aug 2020 17:47
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Markz
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starting wrote on 24 Aug 2020 14:21:
Totally agree
Much harder to pull through if you have a mindset of being in a hopeless situation and feeling like the fight is just about a matter of time.
I also believe that most of us are not actually addicts, we just got used to habits which we have to break.
Habits are not addictions and we can definitely pull through with the right mindset.
My Internet did not work work for a few days.
1 week clean b"h
Isn’t drug addiction also another bad habit...
in that case, what is ‘ addiction’
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24 Aug 2020 14:41
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starting
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Captain wrote on 21 Aug 2020 17:41:
"Captain" post=354080 date=1598031696 catid=4
I like this. My point was that we should seek to gain all the benefits that come when people label themselves as addicts without the negative consequences and misery that comes along with it, by saying it differently.
"I am a person who is challenged by this and must be cautious and put in work, but I am not defective and permanently broke and I am not an addict for life."
That sounds much better than "I am an addict," which is usually interpreted by the person's brain as "I am an addict and I do these things always, and if by some lucky miracle I manage to reach 90 days clean, I'm still an addict and a tainted person."
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24 Aug 2020 14:21
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starting
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Totally agree
Much harder to pull through if you have a mindset of being in a hopeless situation and feeling like the fight is just about a matter of time.
I also believe that most of us are not actually addicts, we just got used to habits which we have to break.
Habits are not addictions and we can definitely pull through with the right mindset.
My Internet did not work work for a few days.
1 week clean b"h
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24 Aug 2020 13:05
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stillgoing
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Dov wrote on 17 Nov 2015 18:31:
Beautiful post, man. And I'd like to clarify what guarding613 refers to...
The danger in SA is not from 'SA' itself. Rather, it is from the honesty of the people in the rooms. What the Kotzker would plotz for a crumb of, is in plenty in SA meetings.
And that's actually poisonous for many people who don't really need to be honest with themselves. Some may say that's bad, some may say it's good, some may say "They ought to tone down their honesty in meetings so that more of us normal people can visit." But normal people don't come to SA meetings. Normal people really don't need the honesty. Being open about exactly what they have done is unnecessary! Since they are not addicts, they can actually get along OK by sweeping it under the rug...until Elul and Yom Kippur comes along, at least. And I am happy about that. It works for them.
For addicts, it just does not work. That's the only reason we do otherwise - we are not in recovery for Hashem. We are honest and know we are in recovery for our own sake. Even if a proven Novi came and gave a hora'as sho'oh that we should all masturbate or use porn, recovering sexaholics like myself would not do it. We know we'd be completely p'turim from it. Sure we may have as much yir'as Shomayim as a non-addict...but the tum'ah or sinfulness of it is not what we focus on any more. That's for normals. For us, we know we did it for years over and over even though we knew it was assur! And we knew that using the yetzer hora/Teshuvah model we stopped successfully!
...hundreds of times.
Torah was definitely the way to stop, for us.
And to stop again.
And again.
Finally, we had to come to terms with the fact that playing a 'yetzer hora game' was a thing we had to outgrow if we were to have any hope of staying stopped. That is why even if porn and masturbation were somehow mitzvos, we addicts alone still couldn't use them. For a real addict, stopping cannot be for G-d. Even if we'd be doing it for G-d, it'd still be for someone else - sorry. It only works when it is for him or herself. Enlightened self-interest, as the Big Book calls it.
The 'dangerous' people they refer to in SA meetings are just honest people, bH. We sexaholics who attend those meetings every week (or more often) have finally found a precious place where we can practice self-honesty by continually opening up truly to others. Can't do that in yeshiva, can't do it in shul. We found a place to tell the truth without shame and judgement by others, b"H - as the Rebbe R Elimelech of Lizhensk suggested to all normal (non-addict) people to find for themselves. Most of us tried that...and just found people even more confused about lust and sexuality that we were. We found well-meaning people who advised us to 'grow up already', to 'use our self-control', to 'learn more Tanya' (I was advised that), to 'distract ourselves', etc., etc. All the while protecting us from ourselves by encouraging us not to be fully honest and open for concerns of nivul peh, 'tzniyus', etc. They let us get away with just describing our problem as 'shmiras eynayim' or 'zera levatola'...in the mean time we were busy having trance-like, ritualized love affairs with naked images, fantasy sex characters, or real ones...or at least, completing the fantasies using our hands. Things were far uglier and bigger than a 'wasting sperm' issue. Nu. Some even encouraged us to keep hiding behind fake names, usernames, or told us that remaining completely secret from all real people was called 'anonymity', when it really was something else. It was hiding. Only by coming out in a safe place did we find we could start getting free, be"H.
So SA meetings are not for anyone who still needs to hide - or can tolerate hiding. I figure they should probably keep doing that...till they can't any longer. Then they will be ready and will go to it and be fine.
Bump
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