guardureyes wrote on 21 Jan 2009 18:14:


It's all out there online for anyone who takes an interest and is as determined as I am to get to the bottom of it.

guardureyes wrote on 21 Jan 2009 18:14:


Yes Guard. The 12 steps is currently their only hope. So let me be 100% clear. On a practical level none of the issues I have with the 12 steps are issues that rise to any justification for someone who is currently actively using them to have any second thoughts. None of them are justification for anyone considering them for whom they are currently the best option.

Everything I have written here is on 2 levels. Firstly, on a totally personal level I am deeply allergic to them and could never use them. Secondly I am animated by my knowledge that Rabbi Twersky has totally overlooked the potential of a clamoring and rousing Jewish movement for Teshuva that is neither dependent nor addicted to the methods that were the conventional wisdom when he was qualifying all those decades ago. My goal is to inspire myself and others to create Group Teshuva meetings with an emotional intensity greater and a Yiddishe emotional intensity that beats the best of the best of the 12 steps. We are looking for the fire and rock-solid resolve of Kotzk and Novardok, the devotion of prayer of Karlin-Stolin and the ruthless self-examination of Kelm.

See what I wrote to Elya. Hashem should help me even play just a small part in creating a better, more powerful alternative that is more practical more lasting and more Jewish than the 12 steps.

But in the meantime absolutely no-one who can use the 12 steps should hold their breaths waiting for this thing to get going.

So guys, recess is over, stop slouching and looking for excuses and get back to the 12 steps, on the double, until we are ready for you.

Elya wrote on 20 Jan 2009 22:10:


OK Elya, my very early first draft of an alternative is above. But the goal goes beyond what I decribed above. The goal is to turn ourselves into shock troops of Hashem's army. People who will stop at absolutely nothing in our determination to recover. People who are able to build the courage and azus dikdusha to be able to attend in-person monthly Teshuva meetings in every Frum metropolitan area Worldwide that begin with powerful and tearful amiras Tehillim, and continue with short sessions of silent and deeply emotional and searing vidduyim that are done silently betzibbur, that should out-rival our best vidduyim on Yom Kippur, followed by group sessions (if possible break up into smaller groups) devoted to going round the group and discussing how we are reinforcing each of the 4 parts of teshuva from a totally practical standpoint.

Elya wrote on 20 Jan 2009 22:10:


OK Elya, 20 Frum Yidden. So you are throwing down the gauntlet and here's my response.

Hashem should give me the strength and inspiration to personally enable and empower more Frum Yidden including myself to recover through traditional Teshuva as it ought to be applied to sex addiction than have ever and will ever recover from Sex addiction using 12 step systems.

Elya wrote on 20 Jan 2009 22:10:


No. Not only is it not a Frum thing at all, it's not even Jewish. Your comment serves as a striking warning of the dangers of how on occasion Frum Yiddish hashkofos that should be obvious even to Cheder children are subversively and silently compromised by non-Torah ideologies such as the Christian Born Again 12 steps that have been dressed up in pseudo-Torah form by Rabbis with beards so that the person himself does not realize how off-base what he is saying is. Yidden are not Catholic and we do not believe in Confession to Priests, Rabbis or whomever. Vidduy is to Hashem only. As a rule, it is forbidden to disclose our private sins to others, unless there is a compelling reason. Hashem should help me inspire myself and others to follow a path to Teshuvah based on a practical application of genuine Jewish sources.

Elya wrote on 20 Jan 2009 22:10:


True, R' Yisroel Salanter in his time publisshed the sefer Chesbon Hanefesh and pushed it's acceptance but the method of the sefer, (written by a very secularly educated author who based it entirely on the system Benjamin Franklin invented and described in his short autobiography) convincing as it initially seems, has a very limited successful track record nowadays. The last widespread successful use of the sefer was in the pre-War Novardiker Yeshivos. (Even Franklin himself was only able to keep his system for a year). Elya, if you are/were able to make it work for you, I am impressed.

So in general that's not a very practical recommendation. Rav Chaim Volozhin was quoted by the Chofetz Chayim as saying that in general different people need different mussar seforim but Sefer Shaarei Teshuva of Rabbeinu Yonah is shoveh lechol nefesh -- ideal for every Yid. Additionally for people who have learned in yeshivos Mesilas Yeshorim is a must. And anyone aspiring to grow in his Avodas Hashem should learn Chovos Halevovos as soon as possible.

guardureyes wrote on 21 Jan 2009 11:24:


Now that's not an analogy that I would have chosen.

1) It's not at all that the inventor of the 12 steps was a Christian it's that the steps themselves originated as Christian religious practices. That's very very different.

2) Unlike medicine, which one way or another one can just ingest, to follow the 12 steps you cannot just swallow them, you have to implement them and if you feel that they are very Christian it's not going to work.

guardureyes wrote on 21 Jan 2009 11:24:


I suppose that those who are addicted to 12 steps (did you know that Bill W the author was very happy that the 12 steps correspond to twelve apostles? --- that's a fact) need their 12 step fix in one form or other. Tzvi's list is just a slightly modified 12 steps with all the same steps with the exception of inventory and replacement with two Jewish sounding steps. It's like making a "Torah novel" by taking the text of a non-Jewish pulp novel and replacing all the secular sounding names with Jewish sounding names.

OK 12 steps has a certain brand awareness that will appeal to some Frum Yidden who have a more secular background. Granted.

But why do we have to be stuck to 12 steps? (please don't tell me it's for 12 shvotim)

Let's just look at a very basic program we should expect to create for Teshuva and Tikkun for Sex addiction that in my mind would be far superior and much more practical and will have superior results than all this 12 steps stuff. Arguably the most effective aspect of the 12 steps is the group and that could be done with this program:

Step 1) Azivas Hachet --- Leaving Sin. STOP and DO NOT THINK. Suspend all guilt, introspection, post-mortems etc. for 3 full days. You can brood later, you cannot afford to think now, you have an emergency intrusion and full-scale invasion on your hands and it has to be stopped right now. Im lo achshov eimosai? So for 3 days focus 100% on the following 2 steps:

a) Interrupt the behavior. Ceasefire. Detox. --- For 3 days focus totally on stopping the behavior. First make sure that at all costs we have 3 days of clean. If possible do not go near any computer. Otherwise have tightest possible monitoring and filtering for 3 day minimum to create a minimum temporary safe zone of no recurrence.

b) Asu seyog laTorah --- During those 3 days at same time as implementing temporary stop get busy creating Strong fences. Create short and medium term safeguards effective immediately to take the temporary ceasefire and turn it into a permanent one. Make serious and deep commitments to fundamentally limit exposure and vulnerability. It is going to be painful but it's better than the recurring failures and guilt. If there is no sacrifice there will be no achievement. Limit hours of exposure to Internet and all electronic medium to a minimum. Limit nature of exposure to electronic media to work and essential personal business only. Move ALL leisure and pleasurable activities off electronic platforms and find healthier alternatives that do not use devices at all. Stop all Mobile Internet access --- Call Service Providers for all Mobile devices and put an Internet block on all Ipods, smartphones, PDAs etc. Stop all texting, when you need to communicate with people where possible visit them in person or at least call them. Same for all unnecessary emails.

2) Charoto -- Regret. After 3 days feel the guilt. Recognize the damage not only of addiction but of repeated cycles of failures. Recognize the peril of an endless cycle of stop and go dependence. Feel the pain of having only gone half way and of having refused to accept the extent of the problem. Take ourselves to task for having been initially unwilling to make far-reaching enough sacrifices that would have better prevented our relapses. Beat up on ourselves for having taken risks that led to the relapse. Feel deep personal disappointment with the dishonesty that allowed us to lie to ourselves just prior to the relapse by telling ourselves that the relapse was inevitable and that the situation was beyond our control. Agonize over the way we lied to ourselves and convinced ourselves that we could afford to relapse without in the process turning into the person that we don't ever want to be.

3) Viduy -- Admit to Hashem that once again we have not only sinned but have done even worse by yet again reinforcing our patterns of relapse.

4) Kabbolo Lehabo -- Make a real commitment to do everything within our power, short-term, medium-term, long-term and permanent with no reservations whatsoever, one step at a time, as needed, to do everything that we can to finally take the temporary break we have created and transform it into a life-time process to guarantee that THIS time and once and for all, we go clean for LIFE by implementing the following short-term, medium-term, long-term and permanent steps:

a) Dibbuk Chaveirim --- Get a very strong support system in place. Post on the Wall of Honor and commit to post on guardureyes at least once daily for the rest of your life. Make a commitment to join the ranks of the "Iron Men of Clean" on guardureyes.com so that you can redeem yourself and by your inspiration and example redeem everyone else. If you can, schedule a therapist or group therapy for LIFE, or at least one year.

b) Go mainstream --- Aseh lecho Rav ---- You should break your subconscious image of yourself as being a metzora, leper or pariah who is michutz lamachaneh and whose life revolves mainly around his addiction.  Move to a community (yes that's right,  if necessary, be prepared to move to a different city or even country) to find a Rov who gives powerful and effective mussar that pulls no punches and who has a good track record of inculcating both growth in Torah study and growth in Avodas Hashem in a significant percentage of his mispallelim. Make every effort to impress this Rov and the community with your behavior by among other things attending every Shiur that he gives that you can possibly go to. Put your best foot forward to both the Rov and the community and under no circumstances whatsoever allow anyone in the community to discover your addiction. If you need a Rov for addiction issues find yourself a different Rov whom you can call over the telephone anonymously. The less Rabbonim that know about your addiction the greater the self image you will have to live up to and the more you will rejoin the mainstream.

c) Go mainstream --- Keneh Lecho Chaver --- Get yourself at least one friend who will be an ally in increasing Avodas Hashem (not just learning) with whom you will not share your addiction under any circumstances. You need at least one mainstream relationship in Avodas Hashem that goes beyond being an addict.

d) Go mainstream --- Learn non-addiction related mussar --- Most importantly learn mussar on a DAILY basis that is not directly related to your addiction in any way and is focused on general Avodas Hashem. Make sure that you learn this mainstream mussar on a fixed schedule every day with no exceptions. That means you learn mussar on Tisha Be'av (permitted), Purim, Yom Kippur, Vacation, day you get married or marry off your children and make absolutely no ecxceptions.

e) Get treatment --- don't pull any punches on this one. Do whatever it takes to seriously and fully address your addiction from a medical standpoint.

f) Pray to Hashem to turn your resolve into Iron and pray to Hashem to get you to 120 without another relapse.

guardureyes wrote on 20 Jan 2009 21:46:


guardureyes wrote on 20 Jan 2009 21:46:


Guard, if the meaning of the language of the steps were clear beyond any doubt to the modern reader then it would perhaps make sense to discuss their potential origin in Chazal or Sifrei Mussar. But the meaning of some of the steps is not at all self evident to readers unfamiliar with the history and context of the steps. So before we decide whether the steps fit Chazal we need to first determine what the steps mean.

As they say in AA, First Things First. How are people supposed to understand the steps today?

No problem, in the secular world they interpret it in whatever contemporary New Age/Spiritualist manner that they feel like and leHavdil in the case of Rabbi Twersky and others in the Frum World they interpret it to fit loosely with maamorim from sifrei mussar.

That certainly fits today's "anything means whatever you want it to" culture but it is hardly a serious attempt to understand what was really meant by the original language of the steps which AA has carefully and exactly preserved to this day.

So where did the 12 steps come from?

The 12 steps were printed in the 1939 Big Book. The author AA co-founder Bill W had previously attended, with his wife, sobriety meetings run by The Oxford Group, a Missionary Protestant Born-Again movement. And in his "Language of the Heart" quoted in AA's Grapevine, Bill W stated clearly where the 12 steps came from:

"The early AA got its ideas of self-examination, acknowledgment of character defects, restitution for harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Group and directly from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from nowhere else."

The Protestant Missionary Oxford Group had a total of 4 spiritual practices that may sound familiar:

1) Sharing Sins with other Born Again members.

2) A Surrender/Conversion/Rebirth ceremony of submitting oneself to G-d and giving over one's will to G-d.

3) Restitution to all those who were wronged directly or indirectly.

4) Listening in Quiet Time for direct guidance from G-d.

Each of those 4 spiritual practices had very specific meanings (remember it was back in the 1930s when words still had a definite meaning) and that was the sum total of spiritual practice of their group. So assuming that neither Rabbi Twersky nor Elya attended those sobriety meetings back in the 1930s I find it a little difficult to take their contemporary re-interpretations to fit sifrei mussar too seriously (surprise, surprise after you re-inerpret the language to fit Chazal and sifrei mussar, the 12 steps amazingly turn out to be maamorei Chazal and sifrei mussar!!!).

Even more significantly, on a number of levels I am very uncomfortable with tenets and language that are directly taken word for word, concept for concept, from a Born-Again Missionary movement.

Anyone interested in joining the Oxford Group? Well, you don't need to bother, because if you are doing the 12 steps, you already did.

Ultimately of course there is certainly ample dispensation for anyone who needs to use the steps because they were adopted by a non-sectarian organization but they won't work for me, because long before I checked out their origin I could tell that it was all very Christian and personally that's a massive turn-off. (In fact studies show that at least until 1965 AA was much more successful and prevalent in Protestant countries than Catholic countries due to the common Protestant heritage of the 12 steps, personally I don't feel I want to share much with Protestants).

guardureyes wrote on 20 Jan 2009 21:46:


This thread is intended to do exactly that and is a work in progress. Elya has aready posted the first contribution and so BE"H will others. What could be better than a grass roots effort to come up with our own Frum steps? Bill W's sole qualification was that he was a recovering addict and so he was no more qualified than us. As for the Oxford Group they got it from their understanding of their Bible. Are we any less capable?

And BE"H and BS"D I certainly will be contributing and I have a significant number of ideas, but as much as I am posting here as if I have been here for years, if you are looking for viable alternatives, I am now at day 1, which at least in my book is not yet viable enough to qualify. So give me a chance to work on the viability and then I'll post some alternatives of my own.

I think that depends how far you are into the addiction. I am not even 20 yet, have never had phone sex or online pretend sex, never touched or spoken sexually to a girl in real life. So for me it's not an issue. But if you are far enough into the addiction that you would have the urge to use IM to feed the addiction you should certainly block it!

really
well i dont want to recall the olden days
a few years a go i was just plain addicted to chatting

Everything is going well here.

I'll admit it. I listen to non-jewish music.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I would like to post the lyrics to a song that makes me cry sometimes when I hear it. I believe it is REALLY discussing the emotions when a guy breaks up with his girlfriend, but to me it is how I felt with my addiction to masturbation and/or porn. Anyway, here are the lyrics. For a couple words it doesn't fit, but other than that, it fits perfectly.



Nothing ever stops all these thoughts
and the pain attached to them
Sometimes I wonder why this is happenin'
It's like nothing I could do would distract me when
I think of how I shot myself in the back again
'Cause from the infinite words I could say I
Put all the pain you gave to me on display
But didn't realize
Instead of setting it free I
took what I hated and made it apart of me

[Never Goes Away...] x2



And now
You've become a part of me
You'll always be right here
You've become a part of me
You'll always be my fear
I can't separate
Myself from what I've done
Giving up a part of me
I've let myself become you
(You...)
(You...)
(You...)


Hearing your name
the memories come back again
I remember when it started happenin'
I'd see you in every thought I had
and then
my thoughts slowly found words attached to them
And I knew as they escaped away I was
committing myself to 'em
And every day
I regret saying those things
cause now I see
that I
took what I hated and made it apart of me.

[Never Goes Away] x2

And now
You've become a part of me
You'll always be right here
You've become a part of me
You'll always be my fear
I can't separate
Myself from what I've done
Giving up a part of me
I've let myself become you

[Never Goes Away] x4


(Get away from ME!)
Give me my space back
Youve gotta just
(GO!)
Everything comes down to memories of
(YOU!)
I've kept it in but now Im letting you
(KNOW!)
I've let you go!
So
(get away from ME!)
Give me my space back
You've gotta just
(GO!)
Everything comes down to memories of
(YOU!)
I've kept it in but now Im letting you
(KNOW!)
I've let you go!

And now
You've become a part of me
You'll always be right here
You've become a part of me
You'll always be my fear
I can't separate
Myself from what I've done
Giving up a part of me
I've let myself become you
I've let myself become you
I've let myself become lost inside these thoughts of you
Giving up a part of me
I've let myself become you

It didn't sound to me as if the original poster had any other ideas. It sounded more like the twelve steps hadn't worked for him and he is looking for another way. As for me, I am not using the twelve steps per se, but I am using this forum as a substitue for what I believe is THE key component in the twelve step programs: group support. I don't have to call myself an addict or attend meetings because I know I have an issue and I am working on myself and together with a support group I am overcoming it. I can say that I also do not appreciate when people preach the twelve steps as a religion, but nobody on this forum does that with the exception of kookooreko or something like that. Everyone on this forum is unconditionally committed to helping us beat this addiction, whether or not we follow the twelve steps preciesely. The goal is to fix yourself, not to 'be a follower of the twelve steps'.

Firstly, a word of introduction. Let us first all agree on what ought to be beyond reasonable discussion.

A) Rabbi Twersky is a zoche umezakkeh es horabbim, he has helped an overwhelming number of Frum Jews. We should all stand in awe of the number of frum Yidden that he has helped. He solidly and exclusively advocates the 12 steps.

The 12 steps is Worldwide the single most effective tool in countering alcoholism and many other addictions. Be very careful if you want to argue with success.

C) People usually do best with a system to change and the 12 steps is a highly developed system that has been practiced by millions over many decades with significant degrees of success.

D) We live in a World which minimizes the role of Hashem and the 12 steps follows the Rambam's prescription. The Rambam says that when you have a weakness in an area you do well to go to the other extreme. In a World full of kochi ve'otzem yodi --- the self-destructive illusion  of being a "Master of One's own Destiny" the 12 steps are a vital and absolutely necessary counterbalance by going to the other extreme and focussing on man's powerlessness and G-d's all-powerfullness.

Secondly, the purpose of this post is not to create controversy.

The purpose of this post is not to debate philosophy.

The purpose of this post is not to prove any point or win any argument.

It should be reasonable to assume that anyone on these forums should have more important things to worry about than any of the above.

This post is to help and support those who have significant difficulty with the 12 steps and have come to realize that the fault does not ,as some would insinuate, lie with either themselves or the way they have tried to implement the steps. This is the place for mutual support and the search for a better way.

Next a word of caution.

IF either the 12 steps are already working for you or if you have just started the 12 steps then this post is not for you for two reasons.

1) Providing excuses, chas vesholom, for anyone to stop doing what works for them to experiment with something else is not what this post is about. Chazal say "Ein sofek motzei midei vaday" --- an unproven approach is no substitute for an approach with a track record. Please do yourself a massive favor and go back to the 12 steps and ignore this thread.

2) If the 12 steps is working for you, then you should rightfully be a believer and as we say in Yiddish you will no doubt be "a geshvoirener chossid" -- or sworn afficcionado. As such the chances are very strong that you will see any discussion of an alternative to the 12 steps as one of:

a) Apikorsus -- Heresy
b) Meabed atzom ledaas -- Willful self-destruction
c) Daiyos Kozvos -- fundamentally misguided thinking
d) Zich-op-narren -- self deception

If any of a) through d) approximate your attitude to discussion of a non-12 step approach then please do those of us who fundamentally disagree with you a big favor and ignore this thread.

You may sincerely believe that you are trying to be mekarev us but I warn you of the potential harm that you could bring on your cause of promoting the 12 steps. By refusing to accept the possibility of another approach you will almost inevitably come across as dogmatic, unthinking and yes, even brainwashed.

But even worse and far more serious by engaging us in debate you are taking a chance, however slight, that by engaging us in discussion you will chas vesholom find your own resolve weakened and none of us here on this forum can take any risk of that.

Chazal say, "Al taamin be'atzmecho", don't trust yourself. If you could trust yourself you would never have landed on this forum in the first place.

Please, Lema'an Hash-m -- for Hashem's sake, don't take any unnecessary risks whatsoever.

If we who believe that there is another way are really wrong let us learn from our own experience.

IF YOU REALLY DO BELIEVE IN THE 12 STEPS, THEN DON'T PLAY G-D. CHAYECHO KODMIN, YOUR OWN SAFETY COMES BEFORE OURS. LET G-D SHOW US THE RIGHT WAY. FOR THE SAKE OF ALL OF US PLEASE PLAY IT SAFE AND LET HASHEM HELP US.

However if you feel, as do many like-minded frum Yidden struggling with addiction, that the 12 steps are not a good fit and/or that you have given them a good try and you have found that they do not work then you will gain strength from being able to freely share your reservations and discuss alternatives with those who will not tell you in stereotypical, patronizing, judgemental and cult-like fashion, "The 12 steps always work, it's just you, you didn't do it right".

You will gain strength from those who can show you that the finer nuances and subtleties of the claims of the proponents of the 12 steps are not as well thought out and immutable as their proponents would have you believe. You will gain strength from reading that beneath all the dogma there is a small amount of sloppy, complacent and unthinking conformism.

In the non-Jewish world there are many who doubt and criticize the 12 steps for all the wrong reasons. They feel uncomfortable and don't want to acknowledge the role of Hashem. This makes it difficult for a religious person to doubt the effectiveness of the steps. Don't they believe in Hashem?

Secondly the Frum Jewish World is very conformist (generally a very good thing) and since the most well-known and public face of addiction therapy is Doctor Twersky and he is totally devoted to the 12 steps it is very difficult from a Frum Jew to explore and advocate another approach.

And yet there is a silent and very significant group of Frum Yidden who for many reasons, most legitimate, are deeply skeptical of the steps and their place in Yiddishkeit.

This thread is your place.

So as a way to validate our beliefs and feelings let's begin with a possible framework within which to see the 12 steps from a "non-12 step" Torah perspective that simultaneously acknowledges the contribution of the 12 steps and yet sees the steps for what they really are, just one approach.

Just as many Roshei Yeshiva, Chassidishe Rebbes and Gedolei Torah who were contemporaries of HoRav Shimshon Refoel Hirsch insisted that as important as Torah Im Derech Eretz was for the Jews of Germany it was not a mainstream approach and was only a "horo'as sho'oh", an important method for those times, so too, many feel that Rabbi Twersky's approach and the 12 steps are a "horo'as sho'oh", but should not be allowed to stifle more traditional approaches that are more mainstream (if this shocks you, you were warned, please refer back to the reasons above why you should not have been reading this post).

But most importantly, if you feel as I and many others do, that the 12 steps are unduly monopolizing the discussion, stifling discussion and shutting down dissent, and that the proponents of the 12 steps are fundamentally unable to acknowledge and accept your feelings then this place is for you.

There's nothing as beautiful in Hashem's eyes then when a Jew tries all he can to beat the Yetzer Hara.

You have used your past falls to learn from and have grown a lot. Never become discouraged. You are joining our community now and our motto is that there's NO SUCH THING AS GIVING UP. We learn from each fall and see how we can be stronger next time. That's what it's all about.

Your determination to stay clean is very inspiring to us all. You are doing very important steps, which are:
1) Nothing beats having a friend in the same boat and giving each other chizuk. That alone is a very powerful tool.
2) Addiction Therapy
3) Strong filters
4) Determination

More suggestions.
1) Did you ask Jnet about their "Mehadrin" mode that checks each page on the fly, even images?
2) Join the weekly phone conferences (ask me for the number and PIN by e-mail: eyes.guard@gmail.com)
3) Sign up for the daily Chizuk list
4) Post a log of your progress under the "Wall of Honor" section of the forum. You will get a lot of Chizuk.

Remember, if you fall, you'll let down your friend. And if you are on the forum, we'll all be rooting for you! That alone is a powerful incentive to stay clean.

May Hashem be with you!

Just the facts and no excuses.

Married man in 40s. Exposed at 7 years old to indecent images in publication left around by house-painters (long before there was any Internet) and have been addicted to indecent images in whatever channels and opportunities available ever since. Was diagnosed recently with ADD and am being treated. Have had intermittent periods of sobriety for as long as I have been addicted and today I am unfortunately back once again at ground zero.

So, earlier today it was ground zero. Now, it is this post as a Newbie, and BE"H in several days time, next stop at Wall of Honor. Taking it one step at a time.

Arsenal:

1) Jnet Business level filtered DSL at home, installed last week.

2) Spector Pro Monitoring Software by Spectorsoft installed both on the laptop I use both at home and at work and on the workstation I use at work. Full monitoring includes screenshots every 30 seconds, keylogging, website logging, applications used, files transferred and more, as of last week, frequently monitored by a "friend in need" who has same systems installed on his PCs.

Pros: a) Continual Screenshots shows what is really going on to catch use of proxies etc., b) Stealth mode very good for avoiding detection by most users. c) Includes ability to block specific sites.

Cons: a) No remote viewing other than when both remote PC for viewing and monitored PC are both provisioned on a fixed network and so there is always the zero option of preventing each other from accessing. This foiled previous attempts using just Spector Pro. b) As with any and all systems experienced and determined users can compromise system in a number of ways (not disclosing here for obvious reasons, users who have found holes and are looking for ways to plug the holes, or looking for installation advice, feel free to PM me, my friend and I may have useful advice, we've beaten the system many times and have B"H come up with a number of fixes).

3) Spector eBlaster installed both on the laptop I use both at home and at work ,and on the workstation I use at work which sends out reports to Spectorsoft servers which then emails with keylogging, website logging, applications used, files transferred and more except for screenshots (which can be configured to be sent out if keyword alerts are set with screenshots).

Pros: a) Does not depend on good-will of monitoree to provide access to PC b) Stealth mode very good for avoiding detection by most users. c) Includes ability to block specific sites. d) Can be combined with Spector Pro on same PC and together the two provide an excellent and almost impossible combination to overcome (of course all systems are at best a tool to empower those who genuinely want to change and in an extreme worst-case scenario, if there is 0% willpower to change and 100% willpower to overcome system then there's no point fooling oneself with any system just for the thrill of breaking it. Even open Internet is better than deliberately fighting systems that are only being deployed as an excuse and fig-leaf for not wanting to change at all.)

Cons: a) No continual screenshots with eBlaster alone and so there is less of a complete picture to catch for example use of proxies. b) As with Spector Pro experienced and determined users can compromise eBlaster alone in a number of ways (not disclosing here for obvious reasons, users who have found holes and are looking for ways to plug the holes or looking for installation advice feel free to PM me, my friend and I may have useful advice, we've beaten the system many times and have B"H come up with a number of fixes).

4) Counsellor for ADD therapy who also does addiction therapy, have been seeing him for ADD for several months, told him for first time about my addiction last week.

5) Very smart and determined friend who is in process of breaking free himself and not only monitors me almost daily, but is also very supportive.

I wish everyone on the board hatzlocho rabbo (vehamispallel ba'ad chaveiro, vehu tzorich le'oso dovor, hu ne'eneh techillo)

In SA they say, "the first one is on Hashem, the next one is on me." The Y.H. puts the thoughts in our mind to look and
to act out.  The next step is up to us.  Stop or Look again and fall. Without a program of recovery, without becoming a
pure vessel for G-d to help, we are powerless over this addiction.

Recently I read a post where someone told a member to go to a meeting.  His excuse was, I can't, the meeting sare
on the "other side" of town.  I wondered, if a free porn shop open 24 hours was open on the "other side" of town, how
long would it take for that person to get there.  I've walked miles without even thinking, just in anticipation.

Until we remove lust from our thoughts and our eyes, we will never get clean.  If you're not clean  you'll never come to
the realization that life has so much more to offer us than this fantasy.

What an amazing story!  It's a great encouragement, but at the same time points to the need to keep one's guard up.  The Y"H will never give up.  I guess that's why Hillel said "Do not believe in yourself until the day you die."  The necessity of joy in all of this is something I still need a lot of work on.  In the olden times it would have been said that I have a melancholic personality.  As long as I can remember, I have been this way.  In some ways, overcoming this aspect of my personality may be more difficult than overcoming the sexual addiction.

I'm still on the derech to my 90 days, but I am finding I am hitting some particular struggles.  I want to bring these out into the open before I am overwhelmed.  I am hoping that revealing these struggles combined with any advice you guys may have will cripple the Y"H.

First, I find that guarding my eyes is quite difficult.  I have a many years long habit of stealing looks at women in public (dressed modestly or not).  Last night, I was strongly tempted to do this again, but I forced my eyes away after the initial glance.  Unfortunately, the image was already stuck in my head.

The other struggle I have I find difficult to describe.  It has to do with the urge to masturbate.  It seems like a real, physical feeling, although I suppose it may actually be a physiological manifestation of the psychological addiction.  At any rate, this urge is with me almost constantly, though at a low level, thankfully.

27 and 28 done and done....new record!

i got rid of my tv...now i'm really pulling out my hair....maybe that's another addiction of mine lol?