Ano Nymous wrote on 07 Dec 2008 20:56:


1. Please keep in mind that regardless of the eitzos presented, which are very good and important, there is another klal that I don't think that anyone would dispute: The longer one goes without being pogem, the easier it is to stop period.

After re-reading this post, I remembered something.

2. YES, Chazal do emphsize that marriage is one definite way to help. I am personally disgusted that this is not "pushed" more than it is, although in the torah world it seems to be done more now. One must understand the reasonings and limitations behind this eitzah and commandment, but if you take a look at a sefer called, "Shulcon Hoeizer", you would  wonder why we don't get married a lot faster and younger. (His was a Chassideshe approach, but the lomdus seems to be irrefutable.)

A real addict may not benefit from marriage, according to the experts on this site. If someone feels that he has to "act out" fifty times a day every day, marriage wouldn't help unless the spouse also wants this kind of thing. Of course that would be sick, and impossible about half of the time.

guardureyes wrote on 31 Jan 2009 18:49:


Yes, Guard, that was a point made by the guy at SA that I spoke to the most. I think that a useful way to explain my dilemma is with a thought experiment that borrows from the pages of the 1973 Yom Kippur War.

In the days leading up to the War, the Israelis, despite multiple warnings, were largely in the dark of Egyptian and Syrian intentions, due to a combination of bad intelligence and arrogance. In the hours leading up to the attack they finally realised that an attack might be imminent and the Cabinet discussed the possibility of their favored form of defense, a pre-emptive attack. Israeli PM Golda Meir decided against a pre-emptive attack. Due to threats of an Arab boycott and embargo, Europeans were not selling the Israelis armaments and the Israelis were left totally dependent on the US, who would be very unlikely to resupply Israel if they acted first. Meir's assessment was independently confirmed soon after by a message from Henry Kissinger the US Secretary of State ordering them not to pre-empt.

Egypt and Syria attacked first, catching Israel off-guard. The Israelis initially suffered heavy losses in the war. The Soviets rushed to resupply Egypt and Syria. Following a personal appeal by Golda Meir, the Americans launched a massive airlift to resupply Israel that was critical to Israel's ability to fight off the Arab attack and to eventually counterattack and come within striking distance of each of Cairo and Damascus.

The US, as a senior ally had insisted that it's junior partner, Israel, forgo the option of pre-emptive attack with all the strategic advantages that would have conferred and the Israelis being totally dependent on the US for resupply had decided it was worth the cost. And when Israel turned to the US for resupply, the US, their ally came through and helped them. Did the Israelis surrender to the US? No. They recognized their dependence, recognized that they were a Junior ally, behaved accordingly and the US came through for them in their time of need.

Let us imagine a hypothetically different scenario. Let's imagine that Meir had ignored Kissinger's instructions and had decided to pre-empt. Let's imagine what would have happened had the Israelis, being unaware of the impending strength of the Arab forces arrayed against them ready for attack, had badly miscalculated and that the pre-emptive attack had turned into a strong Arab counterattack. Let's imagine what would have happened if after ignoring Kissinger, Golda Meir had then approached Kissinger asking for help and rearmament. Let us imagine that Kissinger was very unsympathetic with Meir who had defied his instructions and let's imagine that the US had hypothetically insisted that before any support would be forthcoming Israel would have to comply with the following pre-conditions:

1) Israel would have to totally relinquish it's sovereignty to become the 51st State of the US that would henceforth be renamed the State of Judaea, which would encompass the lands of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.

2) Israel would have to totally relinquish it's identity as a Jewish State and become a State like any other in the US.

3) Israel would have to acccept that all current residents of Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, both Jewish and Arab alike become immediately entitled to US citizenship and that from then on Jews elsewhere in the World have no claim whatsoever on citizenship in the new 51st State of Judaea any more than any other foreigner.

Would Israel, in desperation, have agreed to those conditions? Hard to know. But one thing is certain. The implication of such conditions would have been very clear. If Israel wanted any help under such conditions it would not be help from one ally to another. If Israel wanted any help it would have to first recognize it's powerlessness, totally surrender to the US, lose it's own identity and become a US State like any other.

So the allegiance of allies, even senior to junior, even when the senior ally makes certain conditions is very different than the conditions of surrender.

So returning to the first of the 12 steps. Yes, at one point I was stuck (before I resolved to do teshuva). Yes, I knew, when I decided to do teshuva, that without Hashem's help teshuva would be impossible. But I also knew that Hashem was not insisting as a precondition, that before He helps me I have to come before Him powerless and surrender the fight completely to Him. Why, Hashem goes as far as describing his role as an ally or help-mate "Hakodosh Boruch Hu Ozro" -- Hashem helps him that is that man retains independence and Hashem is presenting His role as that of an ally coming to help. Moreso, Hashem ascribes any future victory over the Yetzer Hora to man --- "Eizeh Gibbor Hakovesh es yitzro" --- Who is strong? He who conquers his yetzer -- in other words in Hashem's words, ultimately, it is man that is considered to have made the conquest. So Hashem's help in my situation is really analogous to the US allegiance with Israel in the 1973 War as it actually played out, as the partnership of allies, one senior and one junior.

Now, the 12 steps are not 12 individual programs in their own right, they are successive steps that are a part of one program, and their meaning is very clear. I am powerless and cannot manage. Hashem is all powerful and he can. That's why I surrender the fight to him, because unless I surrender to him completely He will not help me. That is the belief of the goyim who follow the 12 steps and if you share that belief, those statements are very powerful statements. In such a vision Hashem's help would be directly analogous to a hypothetical Israeli surrender to become a part of the US as a precondition to American support.

My problem with step 1 of the 12 steps was, because as stated, intended, understood and practiced it means that Hashem does not help until you surrender to Him. That's plain wrong and untrue. Hence my dilemma. Hashem is ready to help as long as we want to do teshuva, he does not require that we first have to give up our own role. On the contrary, He considers His role as that of an ally and helpmate and ascribes success to us. So we are not forced into powerless surrender, on the contrary, Hashem is ready to make Himself appear as no more than an ally and to give us any credit in victory.  

BE"H tomorrow I will describe how Hashem helped me see the light.

The number is 21 days to break a habit, but not to break an addictive tendency that affects the
chemicals in your brain.  After 90 days your neurons begin to create new neuro pathways in your
brain when they don't experience the rush of the addictive feeling we get when acting out.

Wow. What a beautiful post from someone who seems very genuine, very determined and BRUTALLY honest with himself. A breath of fresh air. I am truly impressed Boruch. You have real strengths in you. And when you fully recover IY"H, you will be a great asset to us and many other Yidden who will be able to learn from your experience.

I just don't understand one thing. It seems to me that you DID hit bottom and you DID admit powerlessness. It was at this point in time where you write:




That was your own personal "hitting bottom" and "admitting powerlessness". It was at that instant in time that you realized that the addiction had beaten you. You had thought your were in control and suddenly it became clear you were NOT. You realized then, that half measures would no longer work and you were ready to surrender to.... an entirely NEW PERSPECTIVE.

That is pretty similar I think.

So last night I went to my first 12 steps meeting. Hashem has once again been extremely Good and Kind to me. And I really don't deserve it... but, as they say, I am certainly not complaining and I am only too glad to be able to share with you all, at least until I reach 120, how Good Hashem has been to me, and im yirtzeh Hashem, nismach besimchaschem... I will be only too happy to share in your stories of how Hashem has been good to you.

Dear Yidden, I write this with all humility and sincerity, last night after the meeting, I was looking at a personally very uncertain future with the 12 steps. The meeting itself was really good -- it was a realtively small group with real quality guys -- many of them long timers --- this was no recidivist meeting of guys stuck in the middle and constantly wavering. I was also very open to working with whatever I could of the 12 steps. But I really believed that as far as the steps I would never be able to get past first base.

I had separately and individually, both before and after the meeting, in person and with one, for hours by phone, discussed some of the diffculties I had with the first of the 12 steps with three long-time members of the group and I shared with them that I felt that the difficulties would only increase the longer I continued my fight against addiction, especially the longer I would be an active part of the group.. 

As of late last night I had spoken in total with three of them as I told you above and each had his own way of essentially conveying the same message. Yes, they had all certainly submitted to G-d in weakness. They did not have any insights at all from their own religions of how to deal with addiction, and nothing made them believe that was even a theoretical possibility. They did not have even the slightest suspicion that they could have found another way, be it therapy or anything else. They had exhausted every option they had come up with only to fail miserably. When they did step 1 and they said that they were powerless, they were making a very powerful personal and totally unqualified statement.

I am not going to speak for others, although much of what I write here will apply to everyone to a greater or lesser degree, as a frum yid who had learned full time in yeshivos and kollel for many years, who had worked on himself with mussar for almost 20 years, and who has been very fortunate to have had excellent Rabbeim, and with my own set of circumstances, I was coming into this from a totally opposite direction. Being totally true with myself, and not looking for any excuses, I was really coming in to the program from a true position of strength. I will explain that in detail soon.

Now many, if not most of you, will say, right away, what's the difference? What's the big deal? Why does everything have to be a debate? Why does everything have to have a pshat? Just go with the program and see if it works.

But that is extremely flawed thinking and as you will see, B"H I was not even tempted to go down, what at least for me, would have been an extremely foolish path. The very reason that the 12 steps work is because the people doing it, are being totally true to themselves. They are not just going with the flow. They are absolutely and totally sincere. They know no chochmos. They believe, absolutely literally, in every single word they are saying, with every fiber of their being. If they encounter any problem with any part of the process, they work it through thoroughly. They do not look for temporary patches and excuses. And so, if I even wanted the 12 steps to work, as they are supposed to, I needed to avoid any and all temptation for chochmos and schtick, for excuses and short-cuts. If it was going to work at all I had to do like them and be no less true to myself, regardless of the consequences, even if it meant that I could never do the 12 steps.

So I asked them how could someone coming from strength, someone who has far from exhausted all his options, someone who is just at the very beginning of his fight, someone fully committed and determined to go it for life with no relapses, how can he make a statement, "I am powerless and cannot manage"?

As an intellectual and theoretical proposition, it's a total non-starter. Who's to say? They, themselves, were far from convinced that I was powerless and had no other options and they freely acknowledged that I might well have other options. So that was out.

From a personal perspective as a personal statement it was also a total non-starter. No statement captures my determination less than the statement,  "I am powerless, my addiction has beaten me and I cannot manage".

On this forum, I basically got 2 pieces of advice:

1) Do what you can now, because it's very likely that at some point like everyone else you will bottom out.

2) Look, there are all sorts of interpretations one can find to explain the statement in a way that conforms with ma'amorei Chazal.

If either of those approaches worked for you, well, hey, right or wrong it worked.

But being true to myself and speaking only from my own experience, both approaches were fundamentally wrong.

1) This is going to be long, and long for a reason. Because my circumstances in this respect to a certain degree are quite individual.

11 days ago, I, was a guy who basically thought he was in total control (despite all blatant indications to the contrary) because he had never even smoked a cigarette in his life, because he could drink alcohol, as often and as seldom as he wanted. I had seen that when I really wanted something badly enough, and I wholeheartedly applied myself to it, I could be absolutely single-minded, fearless and relentless.

This guy, me, had, in reality been totally out of control his entire life and I didn't even know it. I, was a total slave to every whim and desire that I could live with yielding to, and by the day the list of desires that I could learn to accept was slowly but steadily and dangerously growing. The majority of these whims and desires were intrinsically perfectly legitimate. Learning, looking up seforim, investigating mar'eh mekomos, researching secular knowledge, lots of intrinsically worthwhile pursuits. But I was totally out of control.

Beyond the basic discipline that came naturally from upbringing and beyond a basic sense of self-respect, I was only able to do what I was in the mood of doing and had to act upon everything that I felt like doing.

This affected absolutely EVERYTHING. I was unable to revise any of my learning. B"H for some things I have an excellent memory, otherwise I would be a total ignoramus. Much as I was capable of davening with instant understanding of the words and deep kavono, 99.99% of the time, my davening was literally nothing less than total oblivion. Same for most mitzvos. No matter how much I learned mussar about torah, tefilla and mitzvos, there was no change at all (at that point in time). I was capable of being extremely disconnected in relationships with family, friends and colleagues, ALL my relationships, without exception, were revolving door relationships. No amount of mussar on bein odom lechaveiro made an iota of difference (at that point in time). Work was a constant spiralling nightmare of unpredictability and unreliability. My finances were exponentially deteriorating and they were a tsunami waiting to happen.

But such is man's ability to fool himself that until 11 days ago, deep down, I really believed that I was really in absolute and total control and if only I wanted to enough... and that was the critical error. Because what I thought was my single greatest strength, if only I wanted to enough was my single greatest weakness --- I could only do things if I really wanted them enough and that was why much as I tried I was so out of control.

Then, and I speak here not of theories and hypotheses but of deep and searing personal experience, I realized that I had gotten so out of control and that I had sunk to such depths, that that Monay night 12 days ago, when it was time for a certain publicly observed mitzvo that was extremely important to me, much as I wanted to break free and much as I had every incentive and enjoyment to be involved in that mitzva, I was imprisoned, hiding in isolation, viewing forbidden material, unbeknown to anyone, my accountability partner included, and much as I tried to break away, the mitzva totally came and went and I was unable to do anything about it.

It was particularly painful because just that day I had been checking through the emails I was getting updating me on every one of my partner's keystrokes and all of his activity on his PC. Well he had been posting right here on this forum and I visited the forum for the first time that very afternoon, and I was very inspired. And where did all that inspiration go? Well, ultimately it brought me to sign up with a vengeance right after I fell, but I'll tell you what it felt like initially. Initially just after I fell, I remembered the inspiration I had had from reading this forum and I remembered how it had given me a sense of detrmination that with that inspiration I would be successful and I remembered it all having failed. So at the time, it felt like all that inspiration had gone, not down the drain, but forgive me, I felt, inappropriate as it was and inappropriate as it is, that all the inspiration had gone right into the toilet bowl.

So what did I do? Well, I have many faults, but wallowing in self-doubt and despair is, Chasdei Hashem not my problem. So, I am going to tell you what I did the best way I know. I will use strong language because I am passionate. But genuinely and sincerely, everyone m,ust find their path to teshuva and with all the strong language I talk only about me. I make no insinuations whatsoever and no attacks, even veiled.

So in my own words I did the one thing that I knew I needed to do. I knew that I needed to do teshuva. Not the motions of teshuva. Not, what for me, with my personality and background, would be a half-baked, temporary let's see how it goes, baby steps teshuva. But a teshuva that proclaimed from the depths of my soul, horeisa derech teshuva l'amcho Yisroel. You Hashem have showed us the way to Teshuva in your Torah. The words of your Holy Torah are Eternal and can be applied ABSOLUTELY LITERALLY, PESHUTO KEMASHMO'O IN EVERY GENERATION if only we do teshuva as you have told us to, Hashem, bechol levovcho uvchol nafshecho -- absolutely wholeheartedly.

I said, somewhere deep down in my heart, Hashem, you have taught us through your Chossid, Rabbenu Yonah, that for frequent and addicted sinners, after a fall, there is no time and no place for charotto -- regret, and that the absolute total focus is to first do a total Azivas Hachet -- to abandon the sin with all one's heart, for life, once and for all, right here and right now. I cannot explain it, other than to say HaBo LeTaher Messayin Osso min Hashomayim, how I even got such feelings. Obviously years of mussar and inspiration do not really ever go down any drainage system. But Chasdei Hashem deep within me I heard the faintest stirrings of a lifeteime commitment with no relapses at all. Of course, I knew that in implementation, it would be not just one day at a time but sometimes as little as one second at a time, but deep down I felt that I was developing a commitment for life.

And so I went out there and did everything that would come to mind. I confessed to my accountability partner. I signed up on this board. I divulged it to the therapist I was seeing for ADD treatment. I built up a fearful array of filters and accountability software which I have further, extended and fortified in these last 11 days. And I put everything I had into the enterprise.

So getting back on track after this long detour, in these last 11 days, all the time I was building and growing my commitment and building and growing my sobriety and I really became convinced that with Hashem's Kindness I would be able to follow through on my internal notions of a lifetime kabbolo. All without the 12 steps, to which I had always been allergic, since I read about them, years ago, and which I thought would never work for me.

And then, my therapist told me to try a 12 step group just one time. And I knew that to ignore the advice of my therapist would hardly be wholehearted, and since teshuva has to be wholehearted I have to do whatever I can, without compromise, being true to my values and beliefs but equally without excuses.

And so I believed that even without the 12 steps there was good chance that if I did my little part Hashem would do the rest and even today, in our dor, He would bring me to a teshuva sheleimo. And I was equally convinced that if I added the 12 steps to the process then I would be almost guaranteed to succeed. Not because there was no other way but because I was being wholhearted about doing my little piece.

And so, what hope of hitting rock bottom? As unbelievable as it probably sounds, I really didn't and couldn't believe that there was any strong likelihood that it would happen, especially not if I went to 12 step meetings and became an active part of the fellowship.

So that was why at least for me waiting for a rock-bottom sounded like a real dud of an idea.

2) The other suggestion, I got on this forum, was to at least in the short-term, find some level of interpretation that allowed for a qualified meaning in the statement, "I am powerless, my addiction has beaten me and I cannot manage". Well, for me at least, this was the worst piece of advice. Imagine for a moment saying, "I am, to a certain limited extent, absolutely and totally convined that..." That's not a very meaningful and inspiring statement to say the least. I am afraid there is not a lot of resonance in saying that to a certain limited extent you are absolutely and totally anything.

Same with powerlessness. Maybe it's just me. But if you are powerless, it means you have NO power. Gorrnishct. Zero. Nada. Zilch. That's certainly what it means to all of the multitudes of goyim who, being totally true with themselves, use the program.

So, again, being true to myself, who would I be fooling if I would say a very qualified, "to a certain specific degree and from a certain specific aspect, I am powerless."? Certainly not myself, because beyond that specific degree and beyond that specific aspect I am actually not powerless at all. Unlike the goyim who had no expectations at all that their religion could help them, as a frum Yid, I have been taught by Chazal, hafoch bo vehfoch bo dekullo bo, that we are very empowered, because everything is in Torah, unlike the goyim who were all at their wits end, I was at the very beginning of my journey and was getting more and more determined and more and more resourceful by the day. So, in theory all of the advice above might have made sense to different people, in different circumstances, but for me in my circumstances it was all totally impractical.

So, last night, in brief, I explained my quandary separately, to my 3 new advisors from the 12 step group, and they understood the issue very well and they were not really able to give me anything useful. Except that they did give me something extremely useful. They were able to listen and they were able to understand. They tried to help with suggestions, ideas and in the case of one of them, even with arguments. But ultimately when they saw, from their own experience, that I was being true to myself and not using artificial excuses, they just accepted it.

So, as I said from the beginning, how could I be true to myself and at the same time give the program a chance. Last night after being open with myself and after being open with 3 others in the fellowship, I was at total impasse. One wise man suggested that I pray for guidance, but I was so much at impasse that I was unable even to do that. (aha, the sharp ones among you grin, he was powerless after all, not really, because I knew, correctly, it turned out, that gam zeh yaavor... I was only temporarily stuck)

And then this morning, terem yikro'u va'ani e'eneh, without my even turning to Him in prayer, Hashem in His Infinite Kindness, showed me the light. I want to share it with you all, but Shabbos is soon upon us.

Yes, this morning Hashem showed me how I could without compromising on any of my sincerely held beliefs as expressed above, davka come from strength and make an unqualified, meaningful and totally genuine declaration, "I am powerless, my addiction has beaten me and I cannot manage".

You should all enjoy a wonderful Shabbos!!!

OK, signing on, with a lot tp post about and very little time... I joined a 12 steps program and have much to say about it... I will be keeping BE"H parallel logs in the WOH

Happy to hear from you, I was getting worried  :D

I believe that a wet dream is something to be PROUD of for us here on this forum (as opposed to others who don't struggle with this addiction). In the past, the body never needed a wet dream, we did it ourselves. A wet dream shows we are working on ourselves and making such amazing progress that the body is even trying to rebel 

Ashrecha.

MDM, you sure have guts, congratulations, and a big Mazel Tov on the four months of sobriety, I envy you.  If I may add my two cents to the wife thing, It's important that you wife realize it's a psychological problem or a "disease" as we like to call it. She should not look down at you as a dirty shaigetz.  I don't believe many non-addicted people accept this as a fact unless they are somhow involved themselves.  Get her Rabbi Twersky's books and more to help accept that fact.

Hatzlocha Rabba, davening for you.

Thank you Elya for some good points. Here are my own thoughts.

First of all. WOW......... I'm Speechless. This is a very BRAVE step and shows that you are in this struggle until the very end - for real. Again, you have shown you are not afraid to jump into the Yam Suf up to your nose, and rely on Hashem.

This revelation to your wife can be a big help to you in the long term, but I am warning you that you should brace yourself for some pain in the coming days. It is very painful for a woman. Women are emotional creatures and knowing that her husband had a whole fantasy world with other women in his life, even if they were only "virtual" women, is very hard for her to swallow. Until now, she thought she was the only one in your life.

At first she may show understanding, or even "no response" - as in your case. But it will sink in and she will feel lots of pain. You may find her crying a lot in the coming days. You need to humble yourself and take the pain, and keep silent and show her extra love. If she throws anger and abuse at you, tell her you deserve it. Tell her that you are HAPPY she is so angry at you because this way you will be much stronger NEVER to break her heart again. Tell her how her Neshama agreed to come down to this world to help you in your Tikkun, and part of that help is that she will be there as a strong deterrent to you never falling again. Promise her to only tell her the truth from now on. Tell her you don't want to live a life of hiding and sheker anymore and you want to be open with her. This way, you will be able to stay strong and recover fully. Tell her that ultimately this will take your relationship to a new level. Elya says not to say "I love you" too much, but I do think that saying it can help sometimes. Every woman is different. Make sure she understands that the women you used to fantasies about meant NOTHING to you, and it was an addiction, an illness. Explain this again and again. She might not accept it at first, but it will sink in.

See this page as well, and maybe have your wife see the links on that page.

By putting in filters on both your computers, and by revealing this to your wife - you have shown Hashem that you are ready to accept pain and go the extra mile to win this struggle. I am confident that you will see much siyata dishmaya in this merit. And we are all with you here. May Hashem give you strength to go Me'chayil el Choyil!

Boruch'l, Boruch'l. Part of breaking free of this addiction is becoming a better person. And part of becoming a better person is breaking our ego. So what is so bad if someone triggers you're aggression and you don't act on it? Yes, your ego will be deflated, but that's a GOOD thing. I heard a story with the Tolner Rebbe Zatza"l. When he was younger, he was not yet well known. He was invited to a convention of Rabbanim and he went to sit down at the head table. The gabbai of the event came along and asked him "who he thinks he is" and told him to sit by the table of the "lesser" Rabbanim. So he got up and went to the table lower down. A few minutes later, he got up and went back to the head table. Again, the Gabbai came and told him off in a stronger tone of voice to go to the other table, which he did. The Tolner Rebbe's gabbai was very surprised and he ask his Rebbe why he had gone to the head table after already being told not to. His answer was "Ah! That was such a Gemshmake Busha - I wanted it again".

I must have been here for 2 hours or more. It's good and important but I cannot allow it to swallow up what's left of my life or I will have to stop entirely. So, until tomorrow at BE"H approximately 15:00 UTC/GMT...

Thank you to all...

Day 10 and posting. Thank you all for a life-saving and life-giving forum. Thank you Guard for caring and being there for all of us.

12 - WEEKS TO RECOVERY

So where were we? And if WEEK 1 is about my taking 100% responsibilty, what is WEEK 2?

Well in answer to the first question we were talking about being Smart and being Good. We said that being Smart is about understanding the nature of the problem of addiction. We used the example of the 15-14 puzzle (see above) to state that the problem of addiction as often presented and as often addressed is not just difficult to overcome, it is impossible to overcome without changing the whole dynamics involved in fighting it.

So what now?

Well, we have not even begun to examine why addiction often becomes so impossible to beat and we are in WEEK 2 and have still not identified what role WEEK 2 plays in the 12 - WEEKS TO RECOVERY.

But first we are going to change gears fundamentally before we continue, so that we can be shoveh lechol nefesh --- so that we can appeal to everyone on the forum, in our posts here, everyone from the most fahrbrente chosid (fiery devoutee) of the 12 steps to the most fahrbrente misnagged (fiery opponent) of the 12 steps.

And so, with Hashem's help, I want to share with you some more of the Torah that I have learned from my Rabbeim (Hashem knows that I did nothing at all to deserve the unparalleled Mussar Rabbeim I have had) and some more of the Torah which, following in the footsteps of my Rabbeim, I have discovered myself (Hashem has been very good to me in giving me an understanding of His Torah and the words of my Rabbeim far beyond my own natural abilities, and He knows the extent to which that has been a purely undeserved and unearned Chessed -- kindness).

But first, for now, it is more important for me to share with you what I have learned from all of you and from my short experience on these forums.

I have discovered in my time here that I value sobriety and so does everyone on this board.

I have discovered in my time here that I value personal responsibility and so does everyone on this board.

I have discovered in my time here that I value teshuva and so does everyone on this board.

And I have discovered in my time here that we are absolutely and totally be'achdus, and that on these forums we are all ke'ish echod belev echod  --- as one man with one heart, we are all here to become better Yidden and better Ovdei Hashem.

And so with Hashem's help we will together look at lessons that every Yid who is struggling with addiction can take from Torah regardless of their attitude to the 12 steps and regardless of their attitude on anything else.

May Hashem help us join as one in being ever more successful in all our efforts to serve Him.

(Maybe it's a good thing that there was a pause of several days here, so that I could pause just long enough to be able to wholeheartedly and warmly invite everyone on board for what with Hashem's help will become a shared and united journey of learning from one another).

This is not easy. It feels like have been here an hour and I didn't post here first. Plus, I had been aiming to do a half hour when logging on to my computer and half hour when logging off. So, Rome was not built in a day, nor was it defeated in a day. So, with Hashem's help we stick with the goals and keep trying. Posting a hello on my WOH and then signing off.

The real goal here is my posts on the WOH which, meantime are not happening, in what seems like the very meager time available. With Hashem's help they will resume bekorov.

Day 9 and posting

This is a challenge not getting too addicted to these forums and needs more work. BE"H I'll get back on message over here.

OK, honesty is important... I overstayed today, and did not come here first.

So, we need to do better another day.