I had a beautiful piece on this and my computer timed out and it was gone forever. I'll attempt to copy.

It's like why do we have Rosh Hashanah before Yom Kippur?  Shouldn't we forgive our sins and then we will be clean to approach the KING?  No, first we accept the King as our King, we are his servants, he controls what happens, we accept that, then we are ready to take certain steps to ask for forgiveness.
(The three prong approach to Teshuva).

The twelve steps are in order for a purpose.  Let me explain.  You do the twelve steps once in detail so you at least know what they are.  then you work them as they come along.  Or each day, you can work all 12 steps in a few minutes, once you know how.

If you're on this site you've already done the 1st step.  You're powerless over this addiction and your life is unmanageable.  Then you realize that you cannot do this on your own and ask Hashem to help you.  Once you show trust in Hashem that he controls the world, you can begin to do Teshuva.  Get rid of your anger, resentments, fears and tell someone else about them so you get out the shame and guilt.  Then keep asking G-d for help.  Ask people you've hurt to forgive you you're sorry. Pray for G-d to improve your midos, and help others heal.

Now look at it the opposite way.  Help others heal, improve your midos, ask people for forgiveness, etc.
You can't help others heal if you haven't done anything for yourself.  You can't ask people's forgiveness if you don't realize that you have some part in the anger, resentment and fears you think are caused by others.

So the steps are in an order for a purpose.  Here's the way to do them each day, quickly.

Before you go to bed at night, do a Cheshbon hanefesh, soul search to see if you were dishonest, hurt anyone, were angry, resentful or fearful.  If you were, fix it.  In the morning, when you get up, tell yourself just for today, I will not act out in my addiction.  As you say the introductory Brochos, remind yourself that Hashem is in charge, he created you and he's gonna take you back from whence you came, whether you like it or not. (probably not). During the say review what you're doing and think about why you may be angry, resentful, scared or fearful.  If you are , call someone and talk it out.
Ask Hashem to help you.  Forgive people who may slight you during the day, go to Minchah and pray some more, this time thanking Hashem for giving you another day clean. Thank, don't only ask. Make phone calls and help others. 

We addicts have to psychoanalyze everything and everybody.  Is he right, or her?  What are all the details of this so I can make sure it will work before I try it.  JUST DO IT.  Jump into the Yam Suf before you see dry land, instead of the other way around.  Jump in, accept it and G-D will help you.  Keep analyzing, questioning, formulating, structuring, and you'll never get started.  Action is the only way past depression, procrastination (fear) and boredom.

L'Chayim.................

Thank you for taking the time to explain yourself to such great lengths boruch.

I think that it will be obvious to anyone that reads boruch's discourse to conclude that he means business.  I am glad to see the reaffirmation of boruch's commitment to change and his willingness to "do whatever it takes" to get better is truly impressive.

Being a close personal friend of boruch for a long time now, however, I reserve the right to draw my own conclusions beyond the clearly elegantly discourse the boards were fortunate enough to receive from him.

Just to clarify a few points, I have been struggling to overcome my addiction for years now.  I have previously been an active member on the no-porn forums, at one point I was maintaining a blog about addiction through which I was approach by many competent individuals (including none other than GUE himself) and have reached out personally to rabbonim (albeit in an anonymous manner).

Boruch on the other hand (and I am sure he will agree with this), although aware of his issue with P addiction has been brushing it under the carpet for years now refusing to admit the severity of his problem.

After I had found these forums and taken the advise of GUE to install a filter and set up an accountability arrangement, boruch woke up one day (or to be more accurate one night after a binge P session) and realized "hey, I have a problem too". 

Since that time (about 4 weeks ago) boruch has been extremely vigilant in researching and getting involved with the 12 step group he currently attends.  I respect and admire boruch for this and am truly in awe of his willingness to travel and attend the meetings.  I wish boruch only the best in his recovery, and in all areas of life for that matter, and am grateful for the friendship that he has extended to me for many years now.

That being said, I have and continue to believe that there are many paths to recovery.  I would certainly agree that there are common denominators to these methods, but do not feel that the 12 steps are one of them.

Are the 12 steps effective, yes ... are the 12 steps the most consistent path to recovery, absolutely ... are the 12 steps for everyone ... I will quote the old boruch on this one ... absolutely not.

While the 12 steps may be the best choice for boruch, my decision to do it another way in no way constitute less of a commitment than boruch.

As things stand right now, I will bezras Hashem hit the 6 week mark tomorrow.

Apples to apples (and I use comparisons very reluctantly here), as far as what is lemaysa, I am running just a little bit ahead of boruch with regard to what can actually be measured.

My commitment is no less than his, my strategy no less effective and my resolve no less firm.

Boruch ... you should have much brocha v'hatzlocho l'orech yamim tovim ... and I mean that
   

B"H I am able to resume posting and a lot of water has gone under the bridge, so to get back to the real point here, I am going to do what I can to make my 12 step journey real simple. (That's right you don't need to read from the beginning of this thread, you can start right here)

This thread is about a guy (me) who had some prior knowledge of AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) and the 12 steps and was very allergic to them on many levels. I am almost certainly not alone in that, especially among charedi yidden, although I probably had a more extreme aversion than most. If you don't believe it and/or you are very bored and really have nothing better to do you could always check it all out on my anti-12 step thread on the Breaking Free forum.

But, to save you the trouble and keep it really simple, let's just say that I had lots and lots against AA and the steps and I used a lot of very strong language attacking them from every angle. Not just for the purpose of attacking them, but more to find my own path, as a frum Yid, and as an individual, in the fight against addiction.

So in the beginning my discussion was all about how and why the 12 steps were bad/silly/futile/self-defeating and whatever else you can think of. I was not even at the point of discussing whether they could work for me. It was very obvious to me that they were out of the question for me and the only question was how to develop a different path, which for me as a frum Yid, would obviously have to be a Torah path that would have all the maalos of a Torah approach and at the same time would make sure to avoid all the "foolishness/stupidity etc" of the steps.

But then a curious thing happened. I was going to a therapist to treat my ADHD (discovered only 6 months ago) and I told him about my addcition to forbidden images (not avodo zoro -- although more about that soon).

His reaction? You should do the 12 steps. They are a great fit for you.

I tried in vain to explain to him how he had totally got the wrong guy. That the 12 steps would not and could not work for me for so many reasons. That I had posted on this forum how they were nonsense (at that point I was getting quite desparate). He didn't buy it at all. He said he had someone like me once and he told him to try a group just once. He said that it had to be a good group, though. If I was unhappy with the makeup of the group I should make sure to try a good group just once. (For the record, the 12 steps people urge you to try at least 6 times but my therapist was and is a smart cookie and he knew that once would be enough and he knew that once would be very hard for me to refuse).

Now there are many good people on this forum. One of the best is, without a doubt, our Baal Achsanya and Big Boss Administrator Guard. He put up with me in the beginning, well, up to a point. And he was as convinced as I was that I would never, ever, even consider doing the 12 steps.

So what changed? Why have I now gone to the other extreme so that today I am putting 6 hours a week into attending step meetings ? (only 2 meetings, 4 hours travel time for them)

I could write pages and pages on this. Maybe I will one day. But the truth is that it is very very simple. As much as I need to (and even enjoy to) sweat the ideology, the shittos, the deios, the philosophy etc. and some of you may have noticed how much I really try and go the whole way with that... there is one thing that is much, much, much more important than all the sevoros and shittos in the world... the goal.

And I had a goal. Four weeks ago yesterday, with Hashem's help, I realized that I had crossed a personal red line. And right then and there, I said, Hashem, never again. For those who know anything about teshuva, that's called azivas hachet --- permanently and finally abandoning sin. It took me 36 years to get there, and it took me to get addicted as I was never before (in the month before I finally realized that I had gone overboard, I got addicted as I had never been at any time in 36 years of addiction) and then finally I was able beChasdei Hashem to see that there was only one meaningful goal, total and absolute azivas hachet and total and absolute teshuva.

Now that may seem quite extreme to some. But the reality is that every frum Yid who has struggled with sex addiction has to know that there is no way forward with sex addiction without teshuva.

Every frum Yid who has struggled with sex addiction needs to understand that, surprising as it may seem, halacha lemaaseh the basic and fundamental minimum halachic requirement of teshuva is an absolute and total azivas hachet, a once and for all lifetime committment to stop for ever.

So, B"H after 36 years, finally I had the minimum goal that I needed for teshuva. And that goal was more important than any svoro, drosho, shitto or opinion that I could, would or did post or express here or anywhere.

So yes, I was totally convinced that the 12 steps were not for me. And, yes, I had gone out on a big limb taking on everyone here from Guard to Elya in trashing the 12 steps in the most public way imaginable. But, the goal of total azivas hachet was much bigger than all of that.

And if you have a goal as daunting as total azivas hachet it is easy to get very serious. And when you are very serious and you have a therapist who advises you to try a 12 step group once then no matter what you thought of the 12 steps, you instantly change your discussion from how the 12 steps are a disaster/scam etc. to, how can I make the 12 steps work for me?

Chasdei Hashem I discovered to my surprise that they can work for even the biggest arch-conservative (like me). But there is one pre-condition. You need to be honest about the absolute life and death necessity to make a total azivas hachet and teshuva sheleimo.

Yes, people say, take it easy, you have to take it slow etc. etc. I am not going to talk for others right now. I will first just speak for myself. I tried 36 years of that and all it did was to get me more addicted than ever. Having been there and done that I can tell you that for me at least all it was, was excuses. 100% excuses. Excuses to lower my sights on the goal that I really needed to take and excuses to constantly slip and fall, slip and fall.

And then, four weeks ago Monday, I finally came to the realization. Habo letaher mesayin oso is not just an inspirational saying it is a MASSIVE MECHAYEV.

If you aim for total azivas hachet you will be surprised at how much you will be prepared to do, how far you will be prepared to go and how much siyyatta dishmaya you can get.

On the other hand, if you go for anything less the overwhelming odds are that you will spend your time wavering, slipping and falling.

Having been there for 36 years I can tell you that it's a horrible place to be.

So, yes, we are all different, and we each have our own set of circumstances. But did you ever consider the possibilities of a real azivas hachet? Did you ever consider what it would be like to rid yourself of your addiction once and for all? Maybe you too can give yourself the break you deserve and go for the Gold. Why not try doing it the right way?  Why not try doing it whole way?

Take it from me it's so much easier, it's so much better.

It's always great to hear from you jack. I am looking forward to taking you up to the next Level on the chart in a few days! Don't feel bad that you need support, Rav Amram, the Rebbe of All Chassidim in the Gemara, needed to cry out "Fire" to stop himself. Yiras Shamayim in these areas is sometimes not enough for even the greatest of men. And he wasn't even addicted, so imagine for us!

Always remember jack. We are in your heart and you are in ours.

Dear gettingHelp, you need a 12-Step group. Please see www.sa.org and find a group in your area. You are finally willing to admit that the addiction is stronger than you and you are ready for the 12-Steps. But they are not something you just read about. They require developing a whole new way of thinking, and to really work we need to learn to "live" and "breath" a whole new way. But this takes a group to achieve. Please join one in your area, you will not regret it. You will see more progress there than with your Rabbi, therapist, GUE and Dr. combined!

For more info and advice on how to get started, I suggest calling Elya on the Hotline, or writing him at yidvre@gmail.com. Also, Boruch on the forum started joining the groups, and although he was a staunch opponent to them originally, here is what he wrote today:

Anyone who really wants to make the 12 steps work for them can. More than I am a believer in the 12 steps I am a believer in stopping at nothing. Any frum Yid has to know that there is no way forward with sex addiction without full teshuva. Any frum Yid need to understand that the basic and fundamental minimum halachic requirement of teshuva is an absolute and total azivas hachet (leaving the sin), a once and for all, lifetime commitment, to stop for ever. If anyone thinks that half measures will achieve that they are deluding themselves. Anyone who thinks that filters, accountability partners and attending night seder every night and shachris every morning will guarantee that, needs a major reality check.

If my own experience here can be of use to anyone else, I can share with you that when I first signed up here I had issues that needed to be worked out... In my original estimation the 12 steps were not part of that picture. They did not seem to be a good fit (from my own initial perspective at least) and they seemed like more distraction than they were worth.

What changed everything for me was my therapist's advice. For me more important than any ideology is the ultimate goal. And you can't even dream of that if you are not prepared to be very serious. And if you are very serious and you have a therapist who advises you to try a 12 step group once then no matter what you think of them, you will change your question from whether the 12 steps are a fit or not, to how can I make them work for me. With Chasdei Hashem I discovered to my surprise that they can work for even the biggest arch-conservative (like me). But there is one pre-condition. You need to be honest about the absolute life and death necessity to make a total azivas hachet (leave the sin) and do a complete teshuva.

Yes, people say, you have to take it slow etc. etc. I am not going to talk for others right now. I will just speak for myself. I tried 36 years of that and all it did was to get me more addicted than ever. Having been there and done that I can tell you that it is all excuses. 100% excuses. Habo letaher mesayin oso is not just an inspirational saying it is a MASSIVE MECHAYEV. If you aim for total azivas hachet you will be surprised at how much you will be prepared to do, how far you will be prepared to go and how much siyyatta dishmaya you can get. If you go for anything less, the overwhelming odds are that you will spend your time waivering, slipping and falling. Having been there for 36 years I can tell you that it's a horrible place to be. So why not give yourself the break you deserve and go for the Gold. Do it the right way, do it the whole way, it's so much easier, it's so much better.

Ano Nymous wrote on 16 Feb 2009 11:00:


Yes, Ano, and I suspect that Guard understood that but was intrigued by the "please excuse our appearance" comment... which for what it's worth (not very important) I explained above...

guardureyes wrote on 16 Feb 2009 22:40:


Anyone who really wants to make the 12 steps work for them can. More than I am a believer in the 12 steps I am a believer in stopping at nothing. Any frum Yid has to know that there is no way forward with sex addiction without teshuva. Any frum Yid need to understand that halacha lemaaseh the basic and fundamental minimum halachic requirement of teshuva is an absolute and total azivas hachet, a once and for all lifetime committment to stop for ever. If anyone thinks that half measures will achieve that they are deluding themselves. Anyone who thinks that filters, accountability partners and attending night seder every night and shachris every morning will guarantee that needs a major reality check.

Yes, chas vesholom to sit on one's hands waiting for a full committment. Absolutely, do today whatever you can, even if it's only a committment to one hour of sobriety.

But there is no reason whatsoever and no excuse whatsoever to set limits. Do what you can today and it's fine if it's less than perfect but there's no need to fool oneself into thinking that whatever we do today is enough. Anyone who is at all serious about doing teshuva with a full azivas hachet will recognize that there can be no knowing how far one needs to go to do teshuva and there is no reason at all, other than making excuses, to try and idealize our current behavior as if it is lechatchilo and as if it is enough. Better to be humble and say I should probably be doing more but I am not there yet.

guardureyes wrote on 16 Feb 2009 22:40:


If my own experience here can be of use to anyone else, I can share with you that when I first signed up here I had issues that needed to be worked out. I came here on this board and went the distance. I confronted my issues and worked through them. Not perfectly. Not without mistakes. But I worked them and didn't shirk them. I worked out for myself what I thought needed to be done. In my original estimation the 12 steps were not part of that picture. They did not seem to be a good fit (from my own initial perspective at least) and they seemed like more distraction than they were worth.

What changed everything for me was my therapist's advice. For me more important than any ideology is the ultimate goal. Total azivas hachet and teshuva sheleimo. And you can't even dream of that if you are not prepared to be very serious. And if you are very serious and you have a therapist who advises you to try a 12 step group once then no matter what you think of them, you will change your question from whether the 12 steps are a fit to how can I make them work for me. Chasdei Hashem I discovered to my surprise that they can work for even the biggest arch-conservative (like me). But there is one pre-condition. You need to be honest about the absolute life and death necessity to make a total azivas hachet and teshuva sheleimo.

Yes, people say, you have to take it slow etc. etc. I am not going to talk for others right now. I will just speak for myself. I tried 36 years of that and all it did was to get me more addicted than ever. Having been there and done that I can tell you that it is all excuses. 100% excuses. Habo letaher mesayin oso is not just an inspirational saying it is a MASSIVE MECHAYEV. If you aim for total azivas hachet you will be surprised at how much you will be prepared to do, how far you will be prepared to go and how much siyyatta dishmaya you can get. If you go for anything less the overwhelming odds are that you will spend your time waivering, slipping and falling. Having been there for 36 years I can tell you that it's a horrible place to be. So why not give yourself the break you deserve and go for the Gold. Do it the right way, do it the whole way, it's so much easier, it's so much better.

dear guard, as you know, i am approaching 6 months of cleanliness no p or mas-.i am not TOTALLY clean of thoughts, or wandering eyes.i dont know when i will be ready for that.but i still have urges to go to the nearest video store and.... but i dont go.and the reason i dont go is because i know that you and elya and mevakesh will be disappointed.i wish i was at the madrega where i could say that Hashem will be disappointed in me, but i'm not at that level yet. rabbi twerski says that an addict can NOT just stop whenever he wants.it is the support from you and all the others that keeps me going.i thank you all with all my heart and soul. i wish all the other strugglers the best of the best brachos from shamayim. jack

It all depends, I guess, on how seriously you take the 12 steps. If you have come to a point where your life is unmanageable and have decided to work the 12 steps as a last resort, and you are ready to do whatever it takes, then you must follow the 12 steps, step by step, without deviating. And this is best done within a group framework. You need to work it into your life until it is like the air you breath. After all, you are ripping out a huge chunk of your subconscious and who you have become. You will need a new way of thinking entirely.

If, however, you are just looking for tips on how to break free, but you still believe you will manage using other techniques (a partner, this website, phone conferences, determination, therapy, shavuos, whatever...), then you can view the 12-Steps as tips to help you in your struggle, without having to "work the steps" as they say, or "live the steps". You can read them, learn about them, and try to take out the Yesodos from them, like Letting Go and Letting G-d, rigorous honesty with yourself and others about the addiction, living with serenity, getting rid of anger and anxiety in our lives, and other important tips and points - some of which you can find on this page.

This is my personal opinion, I do not know if Elya, Boruch or Kookoo would agree with me. I myself am not an expert in the 12-Steps. I welcome anyone else's thoughts.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Shomer, you are right that I did not take this the wrong way. I hope that likewise you understand that what I will write is because I am such a strong believer in what you are capable of.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Shomer, it is because we know each other so well that I post here, and it is because I admire you and recognize potential in you that you, yourself don't see that I am posting. I know what you are capable of and that's why, for your good I am holding you to a higher standard... because you can do it.

But you must first be ruthlessly honest with yourself. And that begins by recognizing that like everyone else you have a lot of negius to preserve the status quo.

So let's start, instead, with some real honesty. You don't think that what I wrote here is noeh doresh. Not in the least bit. You think that what I wrote was total nonsense. It's obvious from your comments here and it was very obvious from our offline discussion.

So, let's say it as it is. You are sceptical and you don't think that any radical departure from the status quo is necessary. Why, a little tweak here and another there may be enough to kick the addiction, so who says we need to do more than that? As far as the rest? Well, everyone has problems.

But shomer, that is very inadequate and disappointing and you owe yourself much more than that. You recognize that addiction is self-medication. Don't you realize that as long as we are prepared to perpetuate the condition that we are self-medicating even one day more than necessary then we are jeopardizing our attempts to kick addiction? So what comfort is it that other people have problems?

The important thing here is to ask a basic question. Am I doing everything possible to kick this addiction? Or am I setting limits on how far I am prepared to go?

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Shomer, again I am disappointed. You are evading the issue, yes, avoid the issur yichud by installing filters etc. And then when the urge comes to beat those filters? What happens then? Well, I will put your own words to me right here. "When the urge comes nothing helps, because at that point I am not thinking". OK, so at that point where is your drosho about issur yichud? Absolutely nowhere.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


There are many possible routes to permanent sobriety but they all have probabilities attached to them and they are quite low. The surest way to achieve permanent sobriety is to be prepared to do whatever it takes. Your statement above is nice philosophy. And I do mean that. It is really true. There are truly many possibilities for permanent sobriety, some 1%, some 5%. But that is not the question to ask here. The question to ask is how can I do my absolute best to ensure that I achieve permanent sobriety today.

Now, I can see it already. All those reading this thread, including perhaps yourself, shomer, thinking what does boruch want from shomer already? Shomer is really doing well, why not just give him chizzuk? Why be harsh on him? Well, that's because they don't know you when you are single-minded and they don't know how capable you are. I do. I know you when you are single-minded Shomer, and I know what you can do, and right now you are not yet there.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


You are arguing with the Mesilas Yeshorim who knew a lot better than you. And you have even learned that piece of Mesilas Yeshorim many times. But none of us wants to change the status quo easily, and so we learn mussar and it doesn't even go in to our heads, never mind our hearts.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


You are defining your own terms for beating addiction. Another Mesilas Yeshorim you know very well explains that every kula needs bedika. Your definition here is definitely convenient and certainly is a kula. How much bedika have you done on this one? I will tell you for your own good, not enough.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


The point is not learning anything. the point is making change. That's why you need to either join a group of people who really believe that they have to do whatever it takes to change as soon as possible or find a Rebbe who can convince you not to make excuses to go slower than you need to.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


To play the sobriety lottery you don't need to do anything, who knows you may just outgrow the addcition? 1 in a billion says you can. If you are really serious and determined there is no reason at all that you would settle for anything less than BOTH the 12 steps AND an out-of-this-world mussar Rebbi.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Beautiful philosophy but it blissfully ignores the question of, well what is going to happen next time the urge strikes? I'll tell you again, until it finally sinks in. Absolutely nothing. At that point there will be no issur yichud. No sur mera. No asseh tov. Nothing at all. And not just will there be nothing then. There is nothing now either. You don't even have a plan for next time the urge strikes. And you know it. Don't allow your posts to be an excuse for doing less than you are capable of.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Shomer, I respect you a lot and I care for you. That's why I say with all sincerity that you are trying to be far too smart for your own good. Stop the droshos. Let's talk tachlis. You never went to a 12 step meeting and you are not prepared to. If you were desparate enough you would. If you were determined enough you would. Right now you are neither. That's why you don't know what happens at one.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


Aseh tov on your own terms means being half-hearted. If you are ready to be ruthlessly honest with yourself and not just with me, you will go very far.

shomer wrote on 15 Feb 2009 19:47:


The chochmo is to grow from each other.

On my 33rd day, and with all likelihood I will not fall today either. Thank-you for your advice guard! I will have to keep "looking" through my closed (guarded) eyes 

What had to happen on Friday, happened. It left a really big void in me and I have some hard time filling it; at the moment I am trying to come just with everything as well as focusing on future happier things (which are fewer than before the setbacks). Sadness will still be there, but it is ever so slightly transforming itself into rage, not against things or humans, but against the nothing that is behind all evil. That is why I will ever so more fight to keep from falling, as I know this really hurts the nothing. If I every lay my hands on that nothing that is behind everything bad...

Of course another setback came my way today as well, not so big, but definitely something that annoys me. It seems as if I am not supposed to stop worrying. If the nothing wants to take my life apart in 90 days, it is something I cannot stop. But he will never take apart my will and determination... ... setbacks will just strengthen them.

The next two weeks will be harder than those before that, since I will have to study quite a lot, followed by a week of holiday. I will have to try and keep busy with good things.

Meanwhile strength and blessings to everyone dealing with this addiction(s)...

In anticipation of the Moshiah's coming,
/JG

I think he means that although he doesn't have time to say anything more, he just wants to check in and tell us that he is still doing ok in regards to this addiction. When he has time he prefers to make much more lengthy posts (right boruch?). Correct me if anything I wrote here is incorrect.

As a matter of disclosure I must state that boruch and I are close friends and know (or at least hope) that he will not take this the wrong way.

Boruch, my dear friend .... noeh doresh .... a good drasha

One thing that is clear to me is that for a guy who was not long ago as anit-12 steps as they come and is now a card carrying 12 stepper, you have missed the point completely.

The reality is that "negative emotions" (straight from the 12 steps ... right?) are experienced by all human beings, jew and gentile alike.  Human beings manifest their emotions in a plethora of ways and we "addicts" use P as a coping/escape mechanism for our problems.

Surfing the web on an open connection in complete privacy in my opinion (as well as the psak of many gedolim) equates to being over the issur of yichud.

A person can learn mussar sefarim their whole life, but still must observe the gedarim of yichud.

I am not saying that mussar is the answer and I am not saying that the 12 steps are the answer.  In truth, their are probably many ways to achieve sobriety.

What I am saying is that barasi y"h u'barasi Torah tavlin does not mean learning mussar at all.  Mussar is like the preservative that keeps everything else fresh.  The key to overcoming addiction (and mussar is certainly a part of this) is amaylus v'yegiya b'Torah.  A person must immerse themselves in Torah and make Torah their main focus in life.  This does not mean that a person needs to learn in kollel full time, but it does mean that posting on the forums should not be a reason to miss their daily seder (or any other flimsy excuse for that matter).

If a person learns mussar all their life but does not get up for davening on time (or whatever else), than all their work is merely academic.

In order to achieve sobriety a person does not have to chose between the 12 steps or an out-of-this-world mussar Rebbi.

The first step is to stop being over the issur of yichud (install a filter, get an accountability partner etc.) ... sur m'rah ... and at the same be an aseh tov.  In my opinion, however, being an aseh tov does not mean going to a 12 step meeting.  It seems pretty clear to me that going to a 12 step meeting would be part of the sur m'rah.

I would certainly agree with you that 12 step meetings are very affective, but if you only go to 12 step meetings and stay clean until 120 years, you will be like the truck drive that drives across the country and boasts that he did not get into any traffic accidents, but arrives with an empty truck.

Aseh tov means being koveh ittim la'Torah (EVERY NIGHT) ... being an aseh tov means getting up for davening on time (EVERY DAY) ... being an aseh tov means being an umel ba'Torah (not just being smarter than everyone else).

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To everyone reading this, please don't take the tone I have struck w/ boruch the wrong way.  We are very close friends and know one another very well.  I certainly have my own flaws and boruch is not shy about making me aware of them.
 

It's a Halacha in hilchos Teshuva that you have to figure out what brought you to failing, and to avoid it in the future. This includes all kinds of things. Like: not being careful where you go/not having a good filter on your computer, being depressed, anxious or unfulfilled, not learning enough Torah and musser, being bored, being alone in your battle and the list goes on and on.
But the power of addiction is very strong by itself -much stronger than all the other factors. So once one is addicted, the main focus has to be on breaking the addiction cycle. Of-course, you can deal with other factors at the same time (a lot of them must be dealt with at the same time in order to succeed) but you have to make sure that it's not distracting you from your main focus -breaking the addiction cycle.




Is there really any room for argument here?
I wonder if you are really referring to the question of how to deal with emotional issues.

One thing is for sure: You are most definitely heading in the direction of tremendous success. I'm very very impressed and inspired by you. You are fighting the y'h with chochma and determination and a very powerful strategy. Your mehalech is the antithesis of the half-measure way - which so often leads to failure and frustration. Hashem should give you tons of hatzlochoh!!!

CHAZAK VE'EMATZ!!!

shomer wrote on 11 Feb 2009 17:53:


The key to both sur meira and to long term sobriety is to recognize that negative coping skills and for that matter any coping skills are never used in a vacuum.

Coping skills and especially negative coping skills are only used because we suffer from negative emotions which are the true ra and the true cause of addiction. Addiction is only the symptom. The disease is the underlying anger, frustration, anxiety and disappointment that we try to medicate with addiction.

shomer wrote on 11 Feb 2009 17:53:


12 step programs work on achieving serenity. As Frum Yidden we can relate to the avodas hamiddos involved in recognizing our anger, frustration, anxiety and disappointment, dealing with it, and building on our Emunah and Bittochon to set ourselves free from them.

As all the mussar seforim explain, the Torah we need to learn for yiras shomayim and avodas hamiddos needs to be specific. Whether we work on Alcoholics Anonymous literature or sifrei mussar is a personal choice that must be motivated by what works. It is far too easy to learn mussar in the abstract and to be unable to implement it. Unless one has a very competent Rebbe in mussar the chances of being able to make any significant short-term difference in avodas hamiddos are very low indeed. So, basically the choice is simple, join a 12 step program or get a a very competent Rebbe.

shomer wrote on 11 Feb 2009 17:53:


B'Hatzlocho Gedolo