Day 8 - and feeling rather strong. Lately, I have thought about this addiction and everything in general. Before/during the last 40 clean days, I always thought: when I get to 90 days Ill start refining and improving my other character traits... When I fell I realized, I should start right away, out of two reasons:
1) in the worst case scenario, I might wait till the end of my days till I start improving mysel
2) although it might (temporarily) take resources of my main battle, it might also help me, as a way of distracting and in general

So now I ask, what is most important? I know humbleness but still believing in one self is maybe the most important one, charity and kindness are of course very important as well. Then how about things like organization? General knowledge? Time management? As I write this, I realize that the most important ones are most likely those that serve our Creator best; but which ones do?

A thought just came to my mind... Imagine a scenario where you are walking down a street and you happen to glance up and see a (modestly dressed) lady carrying something heavy. Should one go help, and risk perhaps  thinking something bad?

/JG

You just gotta love Boruch!

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 23 Feb 2009 22:38:


Yaakov, lust is not static, it shifts and morphs. If you have to do it, that's lust. It may not come in the same guise as the lust you had in your 20s but it's lust all the same and doubtless the lust is getting stronger.

I knew sifrei mussar and all the methods for fighting the y"h. I knew them all and yet in moments of nisoyon, it never occurred to me to practice any of them. Then I started attending 12 steps meetings and started calling members regularly. At first, when I had nisyonos I did not call. Then, after a while I made my first call to a member while I was in the middle of a nisoyon. He asked me why I was fighting the nisoyon and not working the steps. I was totally caught off-guard and was flabbergasted by how original his question sounded. I had been investing hours in going to groups, never once considering actually using the steps to work through my nisyonos.

So, I agreed to use the steps against future nisyonos. The next nisoyon was not long coming and I got ready to surrender to Hashem. Well, if I was surrendering to Hashem I knew what that meant, I would have to see what He wanted me to do in a moment of nisoyon. I knew exactly where to look, I went straight to Rambam Hilchos Issurei Biah (21:19) and saw that the Rambam says "yasiya libo midivrei havai vehashchoso veyifaneh ledivrei torah". And so in surrender to Hashem I said the equivalent of "OK, Hashem You win, from now on I am ready to do it Your way"

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:28:


The fall which brings to the realization that the only way to beat addiction is by being ready to do whatever it takes is the fall that brings true wisdom.

Shomer, You are a constant inspiration to me and without you I would never have come to these forums. I know how far you were from going to SA and you have gone a very long way in a very short time.

You will certainly be an inspiration and challenge to many more who are not yet ready to join a 12 step group.

May Hashem make us all succeed in our quest to return to Him belev sholeim.

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:35:


That was my shortest post ever. A real winner  ;D

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:35:


Yes, Yaakov, that's the beauty of this board and that's the beauty of SA.

boruch wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:17:


I think we have a winner.  It is so good to have people that I can relate to.

Shomer,
We are all so sorry to hear that you fell.  But I have no doubt that you will pick yourself up and move right along.  You should realize that with every fall comes new wisdom.  You attain wisdom with the keen workings of the y"h.  He constantly tries new tricks, and you as well have to learn new tricks.  The chovos halevavos makes this point clear in yichud hamaaseh as he elaborates beyond belief on every nook and cranny of of the y"h.  And how after each fall, a person becomes wiser.  But as you get wiser, he gets wiser. 

Over my long and hard years of battle I have always gained something new.  A new insight into myself, and a new insight into the Y"H.  It is crucial to look into yourself and ask yourself why you fell.  This is imperative.Ultimately, the fall was internal.  Yes, having group therapy would help a lot.  But at the end of the day you must learn yourself.  You need to become in touch with yourself. The purpose of group therapy is just that.  It will help you get an touch with yourself as you speak it out with other people.  But learning and understanding yourself is crucial.  So take this time and analyze yourself.  I think all of us, including yourself, will benefit greatly if you could share with us how you fell and what you thinks your mistakes were.  What would you do differently?  What should you do differently going forward.

I would like to share with you and others a post I recently wrote outlining caveats for 'post-addicts'.  As I once went six months, I have a lot to share from my personal fall.  Here is the post

keep up your determination.  May Hashem be with you     

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:08:


Hyperfocus?

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 03 Mar 2009 20:08:


That's why unlike Ano who was extremely quick to distance himself from those who need medication, you by contrast, have been and are much more open.

boruch wrote on 03 Mar 2009 18:55:

For me the opposite is true.  My ADHD makes me hyper focus on things that really matter like gemara and self awareness. I am very in tune to myself.  But I must say it comes with an effort.  Making a cheshbon hanefesh daily is a difficult task.  But I force myself, and once I get into I am glued as if nothing else in the world matters.  I have learned to makes charts and take notes about myself.  I keep a notebook and record all my thoughts.  I am a bit disorganized about it but I am focused on which matters I want to work on.  I, of course suffer from the classic syndrome of jumping from one thing to the next.  Try sticking to one shaar in chovos halevavos for more than three weeks.  Impossible.  But over time, I have gone through most of it and it has changed my life.  Couple that with the works in Rabeinu Yona, mesilos yeshraim, mishlei, etc.  I jump around but it gets done.  I cannot stay focused on one midah at a time. But, one thing that I have gained over the years is that I am in tune to my every emotion and thought.  I will write down an infraction of gaava, kaas that I experinced during the day.  Again, the ADHD part of it is that I get too focused in that and forget that there is a world out there. I have even learned to write whole essays explaining myself to myself.  It sound weird to do that, but that is the only way I can clarify my thoughts.   

boruch wrote on 03 Mar 2009 18:55:

That test so describes me it is close to scary.  I answered often/very often to all.  Boruch, the more I read your posts, I am getting more convinced. Many of those items I always thought were just personality issues.  Like the fact that I am so hyper.  I was never a trouble maker as a kid, and I was actually on the shy side. No one would describe as hyper.  But I am. I talk at an extremely fast pace.  My body is in constant motion when I learn (which I do most of my day, i do not start working until the evening).  Friends would always comment in surprise how hyper I am.  I obviously do calm down.  I can be a very calm person.  I try to force myself to be calm, as I know it annoys some people when I am too hyper. 

The issue really is, like boruch stated, is maximizing potential.  I am already very serious about many areas of my life.  I, accomplish a lot, both in my ruchniyus and gashmiyus.  I am very happy with my lot.  I love my wife and children.  I love what I do.  I feel good with myself.  However, if I am not reaching my potential because of ADHD, then that is a problem.  Just because I accomplish a lot is no excuse for not accomplishing more.  We should never short change ourselves no matter ho high we go.  There is always higher.  And if I can attain that with meds, wihthout it inhibiting my current productivity and personality, then I feel I have an obligation. If I am not carrying out important plans of life because my ADHD somehow does not let me think through a problem till the end, and therefore my thoughts linger in my brain until they disapear, well that's a problem.  If I forgot to attend a parlor meeting (which I did last week) after promising the one in charge that I would go, that is a problem.  It totally slipped my mind.  I do not even have a calendar to write it down.  I have learned to compensate for my ADHD in the past years but perhaps I could better. 

Once again, thanks boruch for taking the time to explain all these issues. I am sure many on this forum will benefit greatly from this.  If any reader of this forum has experiences they would like to share, please do so. 

Last point: Why is it that the ADHD'ers around here seem to write extremely long posts.  hmmmm.  something to ponder.

Ano Nymous wrote on 03 Mar 2009 15:28:


Ano,
You may not need medication but the question is not at all whether you or anyone else would be lost without the medication. The question is a cost/benefit analysis. Do the costs of taking medication be they financial or physical outweigh the benefits in productivity and avodas Hashsem. Yaakov who was the one who started this post, unlike myself and others like me is not lost. And yet he suffers significant impairment.

But his concern was a bigger one, can he be realistic and truthful in his quest to do the minimum for teshuva- total azivas hachet with no relapses if he won't do whatever he can to increase the odds of maintaining his sobriety.

This forum is an excellent first place for people to begin their quest for sobriety and one day at a time is a good way to begin. However, I have found for myself that if I don't remind myself frequently of the enormity of the undertaking of giving up for life then I am not going to be motivated enough to go the distance to do everything possible to make it a reality.

And I have seen the same problem in many extremely motivated people who do not have ADHD. They are just not motivated enough to do whatever it takes.

My own advice here, to whoever would listen, would be that since stimulants increase focus and self-discipline, even for those without ADHD, then at least, if technically you qualify as having ADHD, then go get the medication and do whatever you can about your addiction. As the people at Alcoholics Anonymous found, half-hearted measures don't work.

But more importantly Ano, people who suffer from untreated ADHD are very weak when it comes to self-awareness. If you have truly learned to compensate for your ADHD in your everyday activities then there is over 80% chance that you would currently score negative on this test:

WHO/NYU Adult Self Report Scale

If you score positive then it means that you are most likely missing out on a lot all around, a lot when it comes to work productivity, a lot when it comes to kavono in davening, a lot when it comes to chazoro, completion and achievement in learning, a lot when it comes to managing money and finances and a lot when it comes to safe driving.

But in all honesty and without disparaging anyone, after all I am a newbie here with only 42 complete days of sobriety and I have a very very long way ahead to my commitment of a minimum of another 77 years (I'll renew my commitment if I am still addicted after I am 120 years old --- although there is no known case of addiction of any sort after that age), but let's be honest for a moment, surely the more we admit that beating this addiction for good is a very tough assignment that beats all but a select few individuals the more we would be prepared to do to beat our addiction, and if we truly appreciated the difficulty and challenge we would be prepared to do everything in our power.

So many without ADHD are unable to ever do any better than a revolving door recovery. Add untreated ADHD to the mix and you are setting yourself up for a losing battle. So, if you ask me anyone who answers positive to the ASRS test above is already lost when it comes to beating addiction.

It is so easy to deny the impact of ADHD that in my experience there is no alternative to being totally  open to how much we are really impaired. After all, we really owe ourselves the opportunity to get beyond the impairment. The increase in productivity and avodas Hashem is so significant that we really deserve the chance to become the people we always dreamed of being but our impairment would never allow us to be.

I took an add test in the summer, and I answered yes to most of the questions. I certainly have it to some degree, but I feel I am able to control it well enough without medication. Boruch and others here have it much worse and are truly helped by medications and lost without them.

Thanks a lot ykv schwartz! You and my sponsors responses really helped me in lifting myself back up! I am nearing the end of the sixth day and going relatively strong. I had the ultimate test of my life till now a couple of days ago, as well as a minor "after-test". I wavered just a little on both of them, but to my opinion neither slipped or fell. For the first one, I didn't quite understand/was to weak to do things a little differently, but only a vague form has stayed in my mind from the whole happening.  Due to the sensitive nature of it (both in respect to my identity and in respect to the addiction), I will not elaborate on it in more detail.

Aside from that, two questions arose sometime ago when I read the chapter 4 1-8 in Exodus and Rashis commentary on it. As Moses didn't believe that the people of Israel would believe he had spoken with G-D, is the Torah hinting that if you do not trust the L-rd to make something happen, it might actually not? This is when you are looking at 4:8... ""And it will come to pass, that if they do not believe you, and they do not heed the voice of the first sign, they will believe the voice of the last sign." So in common day language, did Moses 'jinx' it in some way?

Another question arose while reading 4:14 ... "And the Lord's wrath was kindled against Moses, and He said, "Is there not Aaron your brother, the Levite?" " , and Rashi says that for this the priesthood would come from Aaron, not from Moses as it was intended at first. So, I do not have a very deep knowledge of the Torah, but I can (for sure) say: the sins that I have committed are thousands of times worse than that: so why I ask, am I not in the deepest hell-hole already? Most likely because of the mercy of our L-rd; but why was Moses, who would have deserved it so much more, denied such mercy? I obviously do not understand everything behind this story,  neither do I understand everything behind the story why Moses was not allowed to enter the land of Yisrael... but with the little knowledge I have, my brains are looking for an explanation

Forgive and correct me if I have understood something fundamentally wrong here, I hope I haven't. I know I should maybe ask these questions elsewhere, but... I think it is so much more convenient here  ;D

/JG

WOW! 5  weeks. when i was sunk in, i couldn't go even one day! guard, shep nachas from all of this - it's all due to you. yasher koach! and yasher koach to everyone, yes, even those who fall, because falling is PART OF THE PROCESS.there will come a time when you wont fall anymore! as long as you keep it up, and keep connected to this site.if you break away from this site, unless you find something else like this site, you will go back to the old ways of addiction.

guardureyes wrote on 02 Mar 2009 06:36:


Yasher Koach for explaining this.  I also just found something on this subject which I added to my post.