guardureyes wrote on 24 Mar 2009 18:52:

Do not believe this.  This is not true.  Guard, you may not know what it is like but I have been there also.  I was caught as well (not during recovery but during addict, yes painful indeed).  I also thought that there was no turning back.  I felt so cured and it was only six weeks later that I fell back into it.  I slipped back into privacy becoming even more hidden in my ways.  This was summer 2001.  Anyone healing himself needs to have zero external motivation.  When an addict relies on external motivation, like his wife's reaction, he is setting himself up for failure.  I saw this from experience.  You see what happens is that when the person is caught the menuval runs away.  The addict thinks he is cured.  But he has not worked on himself.  When the menuval appears again he begins rationalizing the way he used to.  It is embarrassing to go and admit to ones wife at that point.  It is one thing to admit to a 12 steps partner or GUE email sponsor, but to ones wife a can be difficult.  However, praiseworthy is the one who is willing to embarrass himself in this world to protect himself from embarrassment in the next world.

Rather, one must always maintain 100% internal motivation while utilizing people in his means to carry out his true desire. 

With that being said,  I wholeheartedly agree that it is a blessing from Hashem.  Having your wife know about this, assuming you have a good relationship with your wife, in the long run will be very beneficial.  You will be able to express a part of you to your wife that you were never able to do before.  Your wife will begin to understand you much better.  There was always a part of you that she did not know about.  There was a piece missing from the puzzle.  It may have been a piece of the puzzle that you did not like, but it is still you.  She will be able to encourage you to grow in kedusha.  When I tell my wife that I cannot go certain places she understands why.  She lovingly protects me.

It is very important to make your wife realize how sincere you are.  Show her how you hate this more than she does.  We went to a therapist which was very helpful for both of us.  The therapist almost acts like your advocate.  Being that your wife feels confused by you, it may be hard for her to trust you.  But bringing a therapist into the picture, helps her understand you in a more objective way.  This should be done as soon as possible.  I phoned a therapist within a few hours.  I had spoken to him that night and the three of us met the next day. This calmed the tears. 

I wish both you and your wife hatzlacha.  May Hashem be with both of you.  Please keep us posted. 

aaron4 wrote on 24 Mar 2009 18:30:


OK, so here is what I am thinking, that may bring us all into agreement. If we all agree that we are not beyond the basics, then we are all ready to learn from each others' basics.

And in fact, sharing our basics with each other is certainly well within the tachlis of step 12, helping others gain sobriety.

So that said, there is certainly a difference between the addict who is still actively being nichshal and the addict who is not. If you are not currently being nichshal the 12 step groups are neither an emergency nor necessity.

As for the basic mussar for aspiring poshutte yidden like myself, that we could all gain from the 12 steps, I cannot tell you what mussar you would be able to gain from them. All I can do is share with you, and anyone on this site who would be curious, the mussar that I am learning from the 12 steps.

I am more than willing to do so in a series of posts, in the right place on the forum, that goes through the steps, one by one, in an as easy as possible and pleasant format, without lecturing and moralizing. My goal would be to both try and present them the way I understand them as basic and simple Rotzon Hashem and also to describe in a very basic and simple way how I am trying to implement them practically.

If anyone wants to read them, that is fine. If not that is also fine. At least I will be thinking of everyone else, and if in the end only I read it, there will certainly be a lot that I could learn from my own writing.

I heard a tape of Rav Avigdor Miller Zt'l in which he laughingly quoted the Satmar Rov as saying that Rabbonim who write seforim would do very well if they learned from their own seforim.

So, I will write for myself, and if anyone is interested in joining my journey through the steps they are welcome to come on board.

You hit it on the nail, Ahron. And that's what I wrote:




But, I think I'll leave the TzadikGamur.com site to Battleworn. Even though it could be considered a "child-site" of guardureyes.com - for the reason you just wrote, I can only handle one website at a time  :D

Ok.  Here are some of the steps that work for me.

When online, I consider my motivation for every site I visit.  If it’s a news site, I again consider why I want to read certain articles.  If it’s because the site or article discusses inappropriate topics (fashion or “news items” relating to immoral behavior), or even if it might discuss them and the Y”H wants me to find out for sure, then I don’t click.  In general, I limit the sites I visit to a small list and question anytime I feel the need to visit a site that is not on the list.

When in the street I have a number of different methods depending on the situation, but 3 of the most common thoughts that I’ve been working on making “second nature” are:

1) Remember that what you see is the outermost layer only.  Just a bit deeper is a bunch of gory blood and bones that you’d run from in horror.

2) Try to link the pleasurable sensation of inappropriate thoughts and fantasies to the devastating emotional pain I experienced when I revealed my addiction to my wife.  Since I must tell her if I fall and she has reminded my nicely many times that she understands me but would be very hurt if I had something to report, there is an immediate link between the fall and the painful consequence, even more immediate than the inevitable depressing feelings that used to follow a fall.  Although it’s still a 2 step process (pleasure followed by memory of pain), I’d like to get to the point where the only sensation is the memory of pain.

3) An oldie but goody…just get through today.  I can do it just for today.

It's funny how this works.  Because the void left by leaving lust behind must be filled and will not be denied, an addict determined to recover will almost by definition find his way to the derech that Battleworn has found.  It can be no other way.  So in fact, GUE gets credit not only for helping to make us human but also for the Tzadikkim that will undoubtedly emerge!  Mitzvah goreres mitzvah and the ultimate s'char, when all is added up, is immeasurable.
 

Hi Guard and thanks for the reply ...

I plan on participating on the GUE network for a long time to come bezras Hashem.  In the here and now, however, I have been struggling to come to grips with a lot of things.

The most immediate and perhaps significant thing that happened regarding my recovery is that my wife found out last night.

As I mentioned earlier, I went to several groups last week and decided on participating in the local frum SA group in my area.  I had been feeling a bit overwhelmed by the whole process and called one of the guys to talk things through.  My wife had left the house and was scheduled to be out for about 30 minutes and I thought I would use the opportunity to make a call.

I was talking on the phone with a fellow SA member for quite some time and decided to continue my conversation even after my wife was scheduled to be home but chose to speak in the attic of my house and very quietly.  I figured that if my wife came home, I would certainly hear her and end the conversation then and there.  Well, my wife did come home, but I did not hear her.  Apparently she called my name and when I did not answer proceeded upstairs and heard me talking quietly on the phone.

I few minutes later I heard my wife downstairs and promptly got off the phone.  I proceeded to go and learn with my chavrusah but when I returned my wife confronted me.  My wife told me that she had heard me talking upstairs about an "addiction" and wanted to know what was going on.  She told me that she was very scared and burst out in uncontrollable tears.  I realized that I had to tell her ...

Well, I won't go into the details here, but I basically spilled the beans and told her everything.  I told her that I had been living with this disease for many years now and realized that I could not fight the battle alone any longer.  I told her that I had been going to meetings and that part of the SA program was getting on the phone and talking openly with other members.

All of this was very difficult for her to digest and she did quite a bit of crying.  My wife told me that she needed someone to talk to and could not do it alone.  I made some inquiries and found out that there are special meetings for spouses of sex addicts.  I got her a number of another frum lady to call and will wait and see how that works out.

I told the group this morning that it is ironic that I have been hiding this addiction for so many years from my wife and end up getting caught during my first week of recovery.  One of the members of the group put it very succinctly by saying that "it is better to get caught in recovery than to get caught in addiction".

Going forward, although I did not disclose to my wife voluntary, I have been told that it is easier to fight this battle with your wife on board and boruch Hashem my wife is on board.

I plan on attending meetings every morning and see where things go from there.

I am a bit nervous and a bit on-edge but feel as though the real recovery, the recovery that I have been davening for, has begun.

I will stick b"H with SA and stick w/ the GUE network.

Today is day 6 ....

Honestly, I WISH I was holding there. You know Battleworn, you should start a website called "TzadikGamur.com". But guardureyes.com is for people struggling with a viscious cycle of addiction to lust. How does "Tzadik Gamur" even come into the picture at that point? We are miles away from that. We were acting like sub-humans. We need to become HUMAN again, and then we can think about being a YID. And after that, we can begin to explore how to become a Tzadik Gamur.

I do believe that we on this site have the potential to reach that. Especially since the strength and knowledge that one gains by breaking free of the addiction can be used to continue to rocket upwards to the highest hights. And I bet that's why YOU, Battleworn, are truly a Tzadik Gamur. But hey, one thing at a time :D

Boruch,

I agree with every word you said.  Addicts and ex-addicts can never make the mistake of thinking they’re “cured” and are now beyond the basics.  Walking on the street quickly reminds you otherwise and brings you back to “working the steps” every day.  However for some of us (myself included), those steps are not “The 12 Steps”.  Rather they’re a combination of thoughts and actions (or inactions) tailored to the situation, many of which have been described in chizuk e-mails and on the various sections of GUE.  At a later time I’ll try to detail some of the practical steps that work for me since you like to hear details (I do too).  Since this has been working now for almost 8 months, I’d like to keep working these steps.  However if they fail (C”V) I will go to a 12 step meeting.  So don’t mistake my “12 steps are not for everyone” assertion as a dismissal of the need for basic chizuk of yesodos or schmuessen for poshutte yidden.  In fact, I’m still working on the “basics”.  I haven’t even gone through them once, let alone moved onto deeper learning.

Just last week I heard the story you recounted about R’ Issser Zalman Meltzer hearing the schmuess on sholom bayis.  According to the version I heard, R’ Aryeh Levin gave the schmuess primarily for a particular b’aal habayis who had sholom bayis issues.  The b’aal habayis came over to R’ Aryeh Levin after the schmuess and said “I hope they get the message Rabbi, well said”!  Meanwhile, the one who “got the message” was R’ Isser Zalman!

aaron4 wrote on 24 Mar 2009 15:51:


We all need mentshlechkeit and R' Tzvi Meir and anyone else may make you into more of a mentsch but there is a very big danger that threatens all of us ex-addicts and everybody on this forum and we cannot afford to be complacent.

HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l went to a schmuess on sholom bayis that Rav Aryeh Levin Zt"l gave for poshutte Yidden. Rav Aryeh Levin Zt"l went over to HoRav Isser Zalman Zt"l afterwards and said, "Rebbe, chas vesholom that you should think I was giving the shiur for a Godol like yourself, I was giving it for poshutte yidden". HoRav Isser Zalman Zt"l said, "No, Rav Aryeh, you are wrong, my Rebbitzen writes my seforim for me, and sometimes I lose patience with her, I too need to hear schmuessen for poshutte yidden."

I have a very close friend who told me the following maaseh that he heard directly from the baal hamaaseh.

HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l had a talmid who married into the family of a very choshuve Odom Godol who regularly gave schmuessen in English to the most poshutte Yidden. This talmid of Horav Moshe Zt"l who was marrying into the family of the choshuve Odom Godol was also a talmid of of HoRav Chaim Shmuelevitz Zt"l and had for a number of years heard HoRav Chaim's schmuessen. Marrying into the family of this Odom Godol, he decided to go once and listen to one of his English schmuessen for poshutte Yidden. He was initially very disappointed coming from the schmuessen of HoRav Chaim Shmuelevitz and told HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l that the style was too basic and not for him. Horav Moshe Zt"l told him that he is making a major mistake. "Zei nischt kein ibber chochom", don't be a wise-guy, you need basic mussar as much as the most poshutte yidden.

The biggest to'os of our dor is that we don't understand what our Gedolim understood so well.

We make it very complicated. This one says he is going to Rav Tzvi Meir. That one says he is learning mussar. The other one says he is not such an addict and besides, he has recovered. Yes, he says, there may be poshutte yidden who need it, but I am already a mentsch.

Rabbosai, teire bridderen, we are lying to ourselves. We are ganovim, we are gonev daas atzmeinu and we try to be goneiv daato shel Mokom.

Our Gedolim knew that no matter how big you are you always need chizzuk on the very yesodos. Mi lonu Godol than HoRav Schach Zt"l who when he was in his late 90s would write and speak the most poshutte reid. I remember how I and many of my chaveirim at the time just did not get it. HoRav Schach Zt"l is telling us devorim shekol tinok shel beis rabbo knows???

And it was I and my chaveirim who were less than a tinok shel beis rabbo.

Are we greater than HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l, HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l or HoRav Schach Zt"l?

Absolutely not.

Let us be absolutely honest with ourselves and stop all the lying and excuses.

We are addicts and ex-addicts who are trying to be ibber chachomim, we are trying to take short-cuts on our most basic chiyuvim.

If Gedolei Olam like HoRav Isser Zalman Meltzer Zt"l, HoRav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l and HoRav Schach Zt"l believed that it is imperative to be mechazek the very basics, we should be able to bring ourselves to recognize the same thing.

Let us face the absolute truth fair and square.

The Gedolim never sank to the depths that we did. They were way beyond any madreigo that we will ever be able to understand and yet they did not feel too wise, too holy, too advanced for devorim peshutim. If we do it is not because we are better than they, it is because the Gedolim were being honest and we are not.

All R' Tvi Meir's schmuzen (Yiddish Hebrew and English) can be heard by calling
(02) [or 9722] 658-1000
His natural language is Yiddish, so if you understand Yiddish it's way better than the other languages.
R' Tvi Meir invests unfathomable efforts to try to be a "clean channel" so that when he speaks it can effect those listening. I believe that much of it is lost if you don't here him live. Every erev Shabbos he says a shmuess in kolel Ramah on Rechov beruchim #12 (at around 12:45) The erev shabbos shmuess can be heard real-time by calling the above number.

The "real thing" is to participate in Sholosh Seudos (which is in the T.T. Viznich  on rechov Chana)it goes on for very long so you have to free up the whole Motzei Shabbos. One time I came in after the shmues and I observed the early minyanim for Maariv (the people that are in a rush and don't have time to stay till the end) If most people would daven Maariv like that on Yom Kippur we would be much better off. (when I'm part of it I don't realize the contrast)

Rabeinu Guard, I must say that you have no idea what it's all about. Going to R' Tvi Meir is a complete way of life (for those that are serious) For example, once someone is ready for the next step, there's a whole chaburah system which can turn any serious person in to a Tzadik Gomur.  

I don't think it's for everyone. If for example someone is very arrogant, I don't know what will happen.
But for someone that is looking to grow, he can take you from the lowest of the low to the highest of the high. I don't know why you think I suggested R' Tvi Meir for hard-core addicts. It never would have occurred to me to do such a thing.

Momo, I want to know why you think you are worse off than the guy in this story who was also sure he would have to accept the fact he could not go for more than a week at a time clean. As a matter of fact, I want to know why you think you are worse off than anyone on this page.

Dear Momo, You have to recognize you have a disease. And as Rabbi Twerski says, when someone has cancer they will do whatever it takes to get healed. Are you willing to face your disease with brutal honesty and do what it takes?

If yes, it is time to look into therapy with a sexual addiction therapist. It is time to get on the weekly phone conference, or give a call to the hot-line. It is time to consider finding a "conservative" 12-Step SA group in your area. That is what SA is. It is a group of people who want to stop lusting. They share hope and experience and teach you that even a GOY can do it. If thousands of goyim have learned through this program to give up lust completely, what makes you worse off than them?

But are you ready to admit you can't do it alone, or will this never ending cycle continue indefinitely?

Perhaps you can do it alone. Or perhaps therapy alone will be enough, I do not know. But the bottom line is, you have to recognize the disease and be ready to do what it takes.

And please keep posting. Your posts are inspirational and I know you have it in you to break free fully and, in the process, learn how to bring Hashem into your life in a whole new and deeper way!

I just read this thread from beginning to end and, at the risk of violating one of Boruch's rules (please disregard if I didn't understand it correctly) against expressing personal opinions on the forum, I LOVE EVERY WORD!  Here's why (personal experience here, good old "experience, strength and hope").  It’s clear that both Boruch and Battleworn have sweated for significant periods of time, investing tremendous energy, effort and life into understanding themselves, how they were affected by lust and how to overcome it.  This is magnificent!!!  This is what the forum is for.  I received tremendous chizuk from reading this thread because I feel part of this group too.  I too spend a lot of time every single day, thinking about how lust affected me and how to overcome it.  I too put effort and toil into understanding myself and how to live the words “sur merah va’aseh tov”.  Feeling part of a group is a key to Recovery.  In fact, it’s a key to healthy living generally and is one of the main drawbacks of the free and open societies in which we live today – you can live on an island in the middle of millions of people and if you don’t actively reach out to make yourself part of a community or group, you can lose out and risk falling into negative habits and behaviors.  Here we share experience and insight and help each other by doing so, but similar to the AA member who is helped even without knowing how to read, if you only get the feeling of being part of this forum without understanding or focusing on a word that’s being said, you gain immeasurably (although the words too are pure sweetness and understanding them adds greatly to the benefits). 

Now for some opinion (sorry Boruch).  Just to be clear, I have never attended a 12 step program and will not offer an opinion as to the benefits or drawbacks of this particular path.  However the idea of “doing whatever it takes” and doing it as designed, correctly, without any deviation based on personal judgment, is something I can speak to from experience.  In fact, any serious member of this forum can do so.  We’re here because we’ve fallen, to one degree or another, for the temptations of  the Y”H and lust.  Furthermore, we’ve tried to control ourselves, we did not want to continue those behaviors, however we were not as successful as we hoped we’d be.  After going through this cycle many times (sometimes over several decades and sometimes with extreme highs and lows) we found our way here because we needed, at a minimum, an understanding ear, support and encouragement, because we needed this site (Thank You Guard) to in order to grow and we take growth seriously.  No one wants to acknowledge sins of the flesh, even anonymously, but here were are.  So we can all appreciate the need to “do what it takes”.  And where indicated, we all agree that there’s a rightful place for 12 step programs, at least for some of us.  For others, R’ Tzvi Meir does the trick.  But if the 12 step program is the right answer, then I agree with Boruch that meeting over the phone, or with modified steps, is not lechatchilah.  By tailoring the 12 step program even an iota, you’re exerting control over how you cope with the addiction…exactly the opposite of step 1 (correct me if I’m wrong here Boruch).  In that case, making a cheshbon based on frumkeit falls under the prohibition “al tehi Tzaddik harbeh”.

I believe that determining whether the 12 steps are indicated or not depends on the extent of the addiction and whether your life has truly become unmanageable as a result.  The primary issue is uncontrollable acting out and therefore the focus is on “sur merah”.  However if the addiction has not progressed to the point of impacting your life to this degree, or (and this is an important “or”) if you’ve recovered sufficiently so that your life is no longer unmanageable, then the focus must be on “aseh tov” – ie. filling the void that used to be filled with lust.  And that’s where going to R’ Tzvi Meir (I have never gone nor read or heard any shmuzzen although I’d love to so please let me know if there’s any way to get them) can be 100 times better (again, Boruch, I’m talking about people who don’t need the 12 steps so please overlook the implied comparison to something I don’t know directly).  In my experience, being chained to lust meant that I was deprived of a connection and true appreciation of the magnificent, positive and nurturing properties of Torah and Ruchniyus.  I could not fathom the feelings of purity, love, and yearning for Kedusha that are bringing me to tears as I write these words.  The feeling cannot be described adequately on paper…and the biggest chidush in my case is that at one point in my life, all emotion was absent and I would go about my daily activities by rote, without feeling, almost like my body was there but I was somewhere else (usually wherever the Y”H wanted me to be).  So this is literally something I was incapable of even dreaming about because I could not conceive of it.  This is brought about through active participation in davening and learning – my own version of R’ Tzvi Meir.  For me, this cannot be achieved without Torah and therefore cannot be realized through any 12 step meeting.

guardureyes wrote on 24 Mar 2009 13:26:


Guard, mussar taken, my tone was definitely too harsh, and as much as the inner "addict" in me could find 150 ways to be metaher the sheretz of kaas and gaava, you are 100% right.

To me there is one yesod in Yiddishkeit that demands and requires that we addicts and this addict, me, use the 12 steps.

Our own daas, yes this was my daas too originally and it is the daas of almost everyone on this site (which often falsely appears to us as daas Torah, see the Gr"o Mishlei 16:2 that our daas is possul and we should not rely on it at all) is that the addict needs more Torah and more Kedusha, and that is how we will be saved from our yetzer hora.

The Eibishter's daas is very different. As the novi says in Yeshaya (55:8,9):

ח: כי לא מחשבותי מחשבותיכם ולא דרכיכם דרכי נאם ה'. כי גבהו שמים מארץ כן גבהו דרכי מדרכיכם ומחשבתי ממחשבתיכם..,

My thoughts are not your thoughts and your ways are not My ways, Says Hashem. Just as the Sky is higher than the Earth so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts higher than your thoughts.

The Rambam says in Hilchos Talmud Torah (4:1):

הלכות תלמוד תורה פרק ד

א  אין מלמדין דברי תורה אלא לתלמיד הגון נאה במעשיו, או לתם.  אבל אם היה הולך בדרך לא טובה, מחזירין אותו למוטב, ומנהיגין אותו בדרך ישרה, ובודקין אותו; ואחר כך מכניסין אותו לבית המדרש, ומלמדין אותו.

One can only teach Torah to either a talmid that we know has appropriate behavior, or someone whose nature is not apparent (see Kesef Mishna). However, if a talmid is on a derech lo tova you do not teach him Torah, you first have to return him to the path of tov and guide him to the path of yashrus. Then we check that he is sound and only then do we teach him.

The Gemoro in Shabbos (31a) speaks of someone who has Torah without Yiras Shomayim:

דף לא,א
אמר רבה בר רב הונא כל אדם שיש בו תורה ואין בו יראת שמים דומה לגזבר שמסרו לו מפתחות הפנימיות ומפתחות החיצונות לא מסרו לו בהי עייל. 

Rabbah bar Rav Huna said whoever has Torah without Yiras Shomayim is like the treasure keeper who has the keys to doors of the inner vault, but does not have the keys to the outer doors. How is he to get access to the treasure?

Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l was once asked, the sefer Chovos Halevovos constantly refers to the chiyuv of hakoras hatov to Hakodosh Boruch Hu as being the yesod and basis for our chiyuv to do all mitzvos. The questioner asked, I did not ask Hashem to create me, so why should I be grateful to Him? Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l answered that the Chovos Halevovos is only written for "mentschen" it was not written for someone who is bichlal not a "mentsch".

His answer was clear. The Chovos Halevovos assumes a certain madreigo, a certain level of character. If someone is so ungrateful that he cannot have gratitude for his life, the greatest gift imaginable, simply because he never asked for it then he is not even a mentsch.

The message is clear. Torah, Yiras Shomayim and Mussar all require as the Rambam says a minimum of behavior. They were written and given for "mentschen".

But as Rabbeinu Yonah says of the choteh in Shaarei Teshuva 1:10, and this certainly is true of an addict who has lost self-control:

איך נמשלתי כבהמות נדמיתי... ועוד כי כמשפט הבהמה לא עשיתי אבל שפלתי ממנה

I have been like animals... and furthermore I have sunk to being less than an animal...

And there is no point fooling ourselves or making self-serving excuses that we only need to give ourselves more chizuk.

The one thing an addict who wants to cure himself needs much more than any chizuk is a good hard dose of honesty and a sobering dose of reality. Without brutal honesty the addict will never recover. So let us be brave and let us be honest.

Yes, we need to say this loud and clear:

We have been less than animals

Now that we have been honest, we need some more honesty and we need some action.

How is the addict who has sunk below the level of an animal supposed to get back to being at the level of a mentsch?

It is not his kedusha, or his top floor that has a problem, it is not his Chochmas HaTorah, or his first floor and not even his Yiddishkeit, his basement, that is broken.

His very yesodos and foundations are broken, not only is he not a kodosh, not only is he not a talmid chochom, not only is he not a poshutte yid, he is not even a mentsch -- even a goy should not be a sex addict, he is less than a decent goy, less than an animal.

And I will say it myself, difficult as it is to say.

I was an addict for many many years, until only very very recently and for all that time I was not a kodosh, not a talmid chochom, not a poshutte yid, not even a mentsch - I was less than a decent goy, and even less than an animal.

And when the foundations are broken, when the yesodos are bad, we don't use the top floor or kedusha to build foundations, you don't use Torah to build foundations as the Rambam says in hilchos Talmud Torah, you don't use musar seforim that were written for mentschen, you need to go back to the very foundations that even goyim can understand and start rebuilding new foundations.

You need to go back, not to protim like mikva, tikkunim, chumras in zivug and shmiras ainayim which belong on the top floor of kedusha, not to klolim like limud haTorah which are for the first floor. Not to mussar seforim which are for the basement.

We addicts need the most basic yesodos of mentschlechkeit, we need the avnei yesod so basic that even sex addicts and alcoholics get them. We need to look out for which avnei yesod which basics of mentshlechkeit, which fundamental moral principles worked for addicts to help them recover.

The record is clear. The addicts who, in the first 20 years of AA, were the most successful in recovery, used, what AA literature again and again stresses are moral principles so basic that every religion agrees to them. As the AA motto goes, Keep it Simple.

That is how you build new foundations. With brutal honesty and absolute humility.

Yes, let us be very honest here. It is "passt nischt" for us choshuve yidden, many of whom feel we are talmidei chachomim to admit that we have been less than beheimos. It is "passt nischt" for us choshuve yidden, some of us, myself included, who felt that we were talmidei chachomim to admit that we need to recover like goyyishe addicts.

And Hakodosh Boruch Hu laughs at us, lovingly and says "and it was passt yoh, to be addicted to sex?"

So teireh brideren, dear brothers, I mean this from the very depths of my heart and I mean this out of love, let us stop fooling ourselves.

Whether we have recovered entirely from our addiction, whether we are in active recovery without recent relapse, whether are in active recovery following a recent relapse or whether we have not begun recovery at all. By all means let us not wait another day to build a path of kedusha, let us not wait another day, to build a path of Torah, let us not wait another day to build a path of mussar. But we do not want our efforts to be in vein. A building without foundations can be torn down by the first strong wind. We do not want chas vesholom to be vulnerable and to risk all of our efforts, to lose all of our Kedusha, Torah and mussar to the first relapse.

So let us not ignore the foundations of basic mentschlechkeit. Let us learn the lesson of the drunks of AA. Let us Keep it Simple.

The yetzer horo knows that once he can make it complicated he will win. The foundation of our binyan, of our migdol to fight the yetzer hora has to be made from steps so simple, so basic that you can do all 12 steps wherever you are, in any time or place, without any inherent madreigo or level required. Steps that are so yesodosdik that everyone, even the drunk, even this drunk, me, gets them.

Between the quotes and mutual recriminations above, I was able to take out some beautiful points from Boruch's post. I edited it a little, and I hope to post it on our site somewhere or send it as a Chizuk e-mail sometime:

The list of 12 steps were never a program in their own right. The fact that you see them posted all over the webshows only one thing, how superficial society is today and how much people crave instant gratification.

The Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) system that everyone refers to as the 12 steps actually comprises of three parts:

1) Attending group meetings, at which much of the time is spent on public readings (out-loud) from AA literature and the rest on individuals sharing their stories, focusing on solutions (and not problems), often connected to what they had just read, on how the AA system was working for them. And they shared their experience, strength and hope.

2) Having a sponsor, a fellow member, usually with a significant sobriety period, who supports and guides the AA member on working the 12 steps.

3) Working the Steps into daily life.

The AA member does not need to read the AA Book to work the system, the AA member does not even have to know how to read. He hears 20-25 minutes of AA literature read aloud in each meeting and many of his fellow members, especially his sponsor have read the book. He gets the system without reading the AA Book or any other AA literature, by simply learning from everyone else.

Today many recovery groups such as NA - Narcotics Anonymous, OA - Overeaters Anonymous and SA - Sexaholics Anonymous use the same system for their respective addictions.

However, anyone who has neither read the literature, nor done the system as part of a group, not only does not have any personal experience of the AA 12 Step system, they have no idea whatsoever it is.

They have no more idea of what the system is from looking through an online list of 12 steps than they could figure out the entire sefer mesilas yeshorim from the braysa of R' Pinchas ben Yoir (which contains ten steps, upon which the Mesilas Yesharim is based).

Boruch, you can see Battleworn's VERY inspiring story over here, and you can also see some of WHAT WORKED FOR HIM over here.

Battleworn has much experience and he has shared a LOT of it with us over the past year. I ask you please Boruch, to answer him on the forum with utmost respect and love, as if you were talking to your best friend. After all, you and him are both searching only for the truth and how to best help people. And both of you are from Hashem's most precious and greatest warriors in this area of Shmiras Habris. There's no point in continually quoting what the other has said and then refuting it. Instead, both of you, I would just write things the way you see them, without quoting anything said in the past. (See my next post for something along the lines of what I mean).

Just one more comment Boruch, on what you wrote:




Boruch, from what I understand, Rabbi Twerski is/was the head of one of the largest Alcholol rehab centers in the U.S and he has extensive and intimate knowlege on the groups and steps, having helped thousands of people through them. That is one of the biggest reasons that his guidance to us is so precious.