Note: If you read this post, please read beyond the first paragraph.

Momo,

We all know what it means to be tired of fighting and falling.  It's so depressing and makes you want to give up.  And perhaps the immediate reaction is to "accept" that the addiction is part of your life and rather than beating it, simply co-exist.  Give in a little bit so the Y"H is satiated and leaves you alone but not so much that your life becomes a mess.  And I can tell you from experience that this can work for a while and is helps relieve the depressing feelings, at least in the short term.

But let me tell what happens after a while (and it unfortunately can be years).  First of all, thinking that the Y”H will be satiated with “controllable” acts and leave you alone is a mistake.  He doesn’t work that way.  It’s a fight to the finish – he wants to own you.  After a while, “soft” stuff won’t satisfy him and he’ll want more.  He’ll push you to go to ever greater extremes and take ever greater risks to feed the desire for lust.  Although B”H I never acted out with another person, I worried myself sick at one point that I’d contracted HIV by visiting places frequented by carriers.  I know how it’s supposedly transmitted but exactly where’s the line if you’re inhabiting the same space with people m***ing all the time?  I actually made it my business to find the next blood drive and donate, because I could say I was doing a chessed but deep down it’s because I know they test for HIV and will inform you if you’re a carrier.  It was a tense time to say the least (B”H I did not receive a call).  That’s the way Hashem created the world…you can never stay in one place.  You’re either dragged down by the Y”H slowly but surely, or you’re clinging to Hashem and not remaining static but growing in Ruchniyus.  Odom L’omol Yulud – we’re here to toil.  Being tired, giving up, even a little, inevitably leads us down.  Remember too, masbio ra’ev.  Satisfying the Y”H makes him hungrier.

So given that movement is inevitable, how do you break the cycle so that you’re not constantly bouncing up and down within a narrow range?  That’s a tough one, but ultimately it comes from realizing that the flip side of the Y”H’s gravitational force is equally strong, and ultimately stronger.  Hashem wants to own you too.  He doesn’t want you to do mitzvos by rote.  He doesn’t want you to be koviah itim and force yourself to go to the Bais Medrash.  This is an entire shmuess by itself (in fact, many, if not all of them ultimately make this point).  He wants you to feel.  To know him in your heart.  To understand him as best you can and feel a connection.  You have to start from scratch and figure out what you know of all these topics today…and how you feel about them now.  Then see if your understanding is correct.  Is the path that you’re on the right one?  What does he want?  Why?  This is a cheshbon hanesfesh.  Introspection.  In order to know him, you have to know yourself.  Once you’re on that path, you’re connected to a force infinitely more powerful than the Y”H.  Then he becomes a string and you’re the mountain.  And once you taste it, you’ll never stop trying to improve and grow.  Because Momo, it feels great.  Better than lust.  And it won’t disappoint you – not 5 minutes later, not the next day, not in 120 years.  In fact it will feel great eternally, because for this work you will earn Nitzchiyus and endless s’char in Olam Habah.  Remember, the Y”H will disappear after 120 because he doesn’t “win” if you’re not in this world of action and have no bechirah.  But Hashem won’t disappear (C”V) – he’ll be there when you die.  And he’ll remember every ounce of effort and growth that you’ve achieved and those positive feelings WILL GO WITH YOU!!

Momo wrote on 25 Mar 2009 14:15:

Believe me when I tell you that when I began addressing my addiction in very real way and began to understand myself, I found kochos in myself that I never knew I had.  With the proper therapy, groups, mussar talks, or whatever else it takes, you will finally discover the true you hidden under the rubble.  First you need to believe that it is there.  Then if you try to dig, Hashem will help you reveal your beautiful neshama. Just keep believing in yourself and keep working.

Ano Nymous wrote on 25 Mar 2009 15:14:


I'll take the blame, because as you will see below the blame is mine.

Firstly, as I have to some extent already acknowledged on this thread, I have made the mistake of trying to persuade people to join the groups.

But I need to go much further in acknowledging where I went wrong. From the outset there were two different things that I knew in theory:

1) The AA/SA 12 step system, who it works best for and when.

2) How to approach people for whom the system can work.

In my early enthusiasm with how the 12 steps had worked for me, I was very much the addict in recovery. I did not pay attention at all to who it would work for, when it would work and how to approach such people. I had read about it all and knew about it in theory but I was so enthusiastic that I got totally carried away to the extent that I did not even connect what I knew in theory to what I was doing in practice.

In my enthusiasm, call it "zeal of the converted", if you will, at different points, I tried to persuade Shomer, Yaakov, battleworn and anyone else who would listen, of the benefits and necessities of the 12 steps, and at the same time, between the lines, I tried to stop others recommending their non-12 step approaches to others.

The results were very clear.

I had a positive impact on Shomer who knows me very well and trusts me. However, Yaakov, battleworn and possibly many others, who do not know me, other than as the wild man of the forums, have been very turned off by someone who just yesterday was knocking the 12 steps and today is over-zealously self-righteously proclaiming that the sole solution to all the Worlds' problems is the 12 steps.

Clearly I was very wrong. Not just because what I did, did not work. But most importantly because I was not living up to my own beliefs. I believed that the system worked with an amazing track record, I knew that the system includes specific guidelines on who, how and when and in my enthusiasm I ignored them all.

So, here are the real guidelines.

1) Who -- The ideal candidate is someone who is seriously interested in sobriety, prepared to give it whatever it takes, has not been able to achieve it until now and believes that on their own they are unlikely to be able to achieve sobriety, such a person is likely to do very well.

2) How to approach -- A recovering/recovered member of the groups approaches any addict who is struggling at a time they are likely to be more receptive, usually when the addict is on the more desperate side, shares some of their personal trials with the addiction with the potential candidate, discusses how they came to realize that they could not do it on their own and discusses how they found a solution that is working for them and is working for many others.

If the potential addict is interested then the goal is to supply information that can better help the addict decide how badly he is addicted and ultimately the purpose is to inform the addict that there is literature that discusses the solution and there is a fellowship that works the solution. No persuasion is used, the addict is just told that any time they have questions they should feel free to get in touch.

None of this is secret stuff, it is my own summary of what is clearly documented in the Alcoholics Anonymous book in Chapter 7 called "Working with Others".

Now of course, I ought to have known better anyway, but especially after I had read that Chapter and technically knew how to approach others, I should have known better. If I had done anything even remotely similar to what is in that Chapter the results on this forum would have been very different.

Looking back, the disconnect was because I felt too at home on these forums and did not realize that everything I had read about approaching others applies when posting on a forum, even though you have been posting on it for 60+ days.

But I make no excuses.

So, I apologize to everyone who has been affected. Yaakov, battleworn and anyone else who got caught in the crossfire. I am sincerely sorry for making you have to deal with my getting carried away. I am human, I have gotten very enthusiastic and I got very carried away. The goal is to recognize where I went wrong, which I do and to make it right, which I will try and do.

Dear Momo, an addiction is a disease. Rabbi Twerski defines it as such.

I am happy to hear you are willing to consider therapy, although you should know that Rabbi Twerski calls therapy "the icing on the cake" and the 12-Step groups is what he calls "the cake". The reason I think you would do well in the 12 Step SA groups is because the beauty of the program is that it teaches you how to overcome the addiction WITHOUT FIGHTING!! That's the beauty of it, and that's also what I'm trying to convey in the past few Chizuk e-mails, and hopefully in the COMING few as well.

If you're tired of fighting, the groups are prefect for you.

As far as a therapist, I do not remember where you live. If you want, you can e-mail me. But there are a lot of good links and info on therapists on this page. You should be able to find one there through the links and listings...

We understand you exactly, Momo. No, the people in our recovery stories had the same Kochos as you. But the addiction makes us into animals and takes away our freedom of choice in this area. You need to find a way to get out of the cycle so you can begin to heal.

Hi GUE & Ykv and thank you for your insights!

I am fully aware that telling my wife alone will not solve my problems for me.  One of the members of my SA group, however, put it very nicely.  He told me that it is hard enough to recover from addiction to begin with, but add to that sneaking out of the house and lying to your wife about going to meetings and that can be challenging indeed.

My wife basically cried the whole day yesterday.  She did go to bed last night, but woke me up at 2:00 AM and was crying hysterically.  I spoke to her for close to 3 hours and attempted to validate her feelings and explain to her that none of this was her fault and that I really am the person that she has married and loved for all these years.  I told my wife that although there are reasons that I got addicted in the first place (unstable family, exposure to P at a young age etc. etc.), none of that matter and that I fully accept responsibility for my actions and will bel taking the steps I need to make amends to the best of my ability.

Although things are far from perfect, my wife does appear to be in a much improved state of mind today and we have resolved to get through this together and grow from it.

Things are not easy, but they are getting better.

I am totally on board w/ the 12 steps and agree fully w/ boruch regarding their effectiveness.

Today is day 7 ...

Are you talking about the same book as I am. In Yair's book it says that the R' Y' told his group that he couldn't imagine how he would ever do the 12th step. Where on earth would he find someone to spread the word to. Then he realized that he was mikayem it by helping Yerachmiel to not get there. If you read it again you will see that it's 100% clear that he doesn't consider Yerachmiel an addict and therefore he doesn't consider him a candidate for the 12 steps.

I do see my addiction Dr wkly and I do attend meeting via the phone.I am really starting to see some serious results in my life.B'H I am getting  help!

I've enjoyed reading this thread, but I feel the need to make one comment. All of us are on the same team. There is nothing wrong with a good argument, but we must not lose sight of the ultimate goal: to help ourselves and others beat this addiction. When we resort to name-calling and ad hominem attacks (which I've seen in this thread), it means we have lost sight of this goal. Don't let your emotions blind your intellect! If you do this, nothing will offend YOU (although you may disagree) and you will not feel the need to offend others. Keep sight of the ultimate goal!!

Good Morning Rabbosai
I wanted to let you know that Bli Ayin Hora we are holding at day 6. I am seeing an addictions doctor today and hopefully that will be helpful. B"H I have not experienced any tremendous nissyonos but I know they will come. I need a sponsor and someone that I can be accountable to. Can anyone give me suggestions.
P.Y.

Rabeinu, I'm very sorry for getting annoyed at you, especially since the chevra here don't even know what I'm really upset about. Please forgive me.

I came in today planning on posting, what I think is something really special and that post really dampened my mood. But now I want to try anyway to say what I wanted.

Today they put up posters around Yerushalayim about the dangers of the internet. I didn't actually read them (yet) but what I did see was, that it said that the internet has turned the problem of kids going off the derech in to the problem of ADULTS going off. I saw that someone had written something in English on to the sign so I went closer to see what it says. The guy wrote "I'm 62 and I will tell anyone about the dangers of the internet" ( it's quite obvious that he means from personal experience) And he wrote his (kosher) cellphone # .

It made me smile and perhaps partially as a result of that, about 10 minutes later something interesting happened. You see, for many months I've been trying to capture in words the fundamental change in my way of thinking that I got from R' Tvi Meir. As I was walking in the street, it suddenly hit me. I stopped right there to write it down before it's to late.

An addict (even the most mildly addicted) tends to think of his "world" consisting of "me" and
"the lust". With Hashem being somewhere far away getting "annoyed" and perhaps "frustrated" at me.

From R' Tzvi Meir I learned -and we all can and must learn- that my world consists of Hashem and me.
With the lust trying to get between us, and to interfere with the greatest love-relationship that exists.

I know from experience that when I'm mikatzer people don't get what I'm saying but in this case I can't see any way to elaborate. So I hope it's clear (maybe read it a few times)

I'm sorry, but again you missed the point. I was just mentioning the chabura system to give you an idea how I'm not just talking about hearing droshos. That's why I said "FOR EXAMPLE ONCE SOME ONE IS READY FOR THE NEXT STEP..."

The bottom line is this:





Do you know what the lowest of the low means???

Or maybe you're doing this on purpose?

MD, did you see yesterday's Chizuk e-mail (#438 on this page)? I think it was one of the most powerful e-mails in a long time - if you can relate to it in a deep way.

It would be very good MD, - perhaps LIFE SAVING - if you could join an SA group in your area. They are very zealous about guarding the anonymity of the members. You don't have to worry anyone will find out, and your wife anyway knows. I highly suggest this for you if you want to stay clean in the long term. This is the most sure and proven way to success, according to Rabbi Twerski - and he repeats it again and again. Just yesterday I just happened upon a nice article in aish.com by Rabbi Twerski on addiction. And at the bottom it says:

The ultimate distinction between man and animals is not that man is more intelligent, but that animals are creatures that have no choice over their behavior. They must do whatever their bodies demand. They cannot choose what they should do. Man has the ability of self-control, to choose one's behavior, even in defiance of physical urges.

If a person loses one's ability to choose and is dominated by urges one cannot control, one is indeed an addict. Losing the ability to choose is losing the uniqueness of being a human being, and robs one of the dignity of being human. We pride ourselves on liberty and view slavery as evil because it dehumanizes a person. And that is exactly what happens when we relinquish our ability to choose.

Addicts may indeed have psychological problems, but these cannot be effectively addressed as long as the addiction is active. Control of the addiction is rarely achieved solely by psychotherapy. Participation in a support group comprised of people who have successfully overcome their addiction, such as the 12-step groups, is vital. Psychotherapy is a valuable adjunct.

Ok, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant he doesn't know a lot about the 12 steps. And on that issue, I am certain he knows them intimately. As far as which groups to attend for a sex addict, he may not know all the differences between SA and SLAA. Maybe I should point it out to him.

BTW Boruch, did you ever read this page? I thought you'd find it interesting.

guardureyes wrote on 24 Mar 2009 23:31:


Guard,
I just noticed two posts on this thread that I had not seen at all, one of them being the one that included your comment above. You misunderstood my comment totally, not having ever been to a group yourself.

The 'S' & 'A' groups such as SA and SLAA, and indeed all 'A' groups, such as AA, NA, OA have closed meetings that are only open to addicts sharing the addiction of the group. As such, assuming that Rabbi Twersky himself is not an addict, which is a reasonable assumption, he has never actually attended a real meeting. What these 'A' groups do for professionals is have open meetings with speakers describing what the program is. That is nothing like actually attending a meeting.

Here is what I can tell you as an addict who has attended SA meetings and has both heard from others and read about SLAA meetings.

1) Very few women, if any at all, attend SA meetings. This is because SA defines addiction as addiction to lust whereas SLAA defines addiction to relationships and behaviors. Women tend naturally to view everything within the spectrum of relationships and so as a rule they all go to SLAA where the focus is on the relationships. Additionally the men in SA are usually traditional and female immorality has more of a stigma attached to it than male immorality which makes women feel uncomfortable in SA.

2) SLAA is very liberal, in that it sees homosexual and extra-marital relationships as consistent with sobriety, for that matter, sobriety within SLAA is whatever you decide it to be. By nature this is more attractive to liberal and non-religious people.

3) SA is very conservative, compared with SLAA. Marriage is defined as being between one man and one woman, sobriety is no extra-marital sex including no masturbation (they call that sex with self), progressive victory over lust means overcoming lustful activity such as viewing images and addiction is to lust not relationships or behaviors. The nature of SA is such that it tends to attract conservative, traditional and religious men.

For the above reasons it is self-evident that frum Yidden would and should want to overwhelmingly choose SA over SLAA.

This is advice that has amazingly been glaringly omitted from this site and many pixels have been devoted to potential problems that it is claimed could occur at group meetings that would not occur at SA meetings due to the unlikelihood of female attendance and the very traditional nature of the groups.

Rabbi Twersky may not know this because:

1) As above, he is not an addict and is therefore by the anonymity definition not allowed to attend any regular meetings. Non-addicted professionals can only attend open meetings which are not meetings at all but just speeches about meetings.

2) SLAA has a very high profile among psychologists because of the psychological element of the focus on addiction to relationships and because as a rule psychologists are very liberal. For this reason the profession is far more aware of SLAA than of SA.

3) Since Rabbi Twersky's practice is not in a major charedi population center he has less awareness than practitioners in major charedi population centers. Just for example my therapist told me in no uncertain terms to keep well away from SLAA. His unspoken advice was shomer nafsho yirchak meihem.

So, everyone has their areas of expertise. Rabbi Twersky has tremendous experience in treating addiction, but he is not an addict, has never attended a real 'S' and 'A' meeting, and for whatever reason, that is not his area of expertise and he is certainly not the right address for advice on which 'S' and 'A' group to pick.

Funny we just discussed this today, I just happened upon a nice article in aish.com by Rabbi Twerski on addiction. And at the bottom it says:

About the author:
Rabbi Abraham J. Twerski

The founder and medical director of Gateway Rehabilitation Center in Aliquippa, Pennsylvania, Dr. Twerski is one of the country''s leading experts on alcohol and drug rehabilitation. He is the author of numerous books, including "The Sun Will Shine Again." .

And it's a nice article too. Rabbi Twerski discusses there - like Boruch was saying today, how addictions make us act lower than animals. And I quote:

The ultimate distinction between man and animals is not that man is more intelligent, but that animals are creatures that have no choice over their behavior. They must do whatever their bodies demand. They cannot choose what they should do. Man has the ability of self-control, to choose one's behavior, even in defiance of physical urges.

If a person loses one's ability to choose and is dominated by urges one cannot control, one is indeed an addict. Losing the ability to choose is losing the uniqueness of being a human being, and robs one of the dignity of being human. We pride ourselves on liberty and view slavery as evil because it dehumanizes a person. And that is exactly what happens when we relinquish our ability to choose.

Addicts may indeed have psychological problems, but these cannot be effectively addressed as long as the addiction is active. Control of the addiction is rarely achieved solely by psychotherapy. Participation in a support group comprised of people who have successfully overcome their addiction, such as the 12-step groups, is vital. Psychotherapy is a valuable adjunct.