Yaakov, thank you for saying exactly what I was thinking!

Boruch,

1) These long posts of yours are very informative and enlightening, and I have noted down by me much of what you have written for future reference. BUT I think you are missing the issue at hand. The issue at hand is what Yaakov wrote and what I posted in reply #66. No more and no less.

2) I have to disagree with you on one thing. Again and again you claim that concerned_yid  has self-serving interests and that he has a big agenda and a lot at stake, etc. etc. What if you would find out that is completely false? I am 99% sure that he is not worried about HIMSELF. Do you really think he is afraid that we're going to send so many people to SA that many insincere people will end up coming to the very group he goes to (out of thousands in the U.S) and that one of them will spill the beans about him? I find this very unlikely, and yet in the last 10 posts of yours you have been stating this as FACT, again and again. That is what I meant when I said your posts are too harsh. You keep taking him apart, limb by limb, when I believe in fact that he is very sincere. And to prove my point, if he wasn't sincere - how could SA have worked for him so well? (BTW. Rabbi Twerski is the one who sent him to the groups about 3 years ago...) Also, if he wasn't sincere, why did he try getting everyone to go to the groups himself? He used to post on our forum. He called himself "Kookoo" and you can read all his posts by clicking on this link. As a punishment for being so harsh on him, I am sentencing you to read ALL his posts (There are two pages of his comments, you can access them both by pressing on the numbers at the top of the page). Then come back to me and tell me what you think about him. And I quote one of his posts here:

It appears to me they you are still trying to control and enjoy it. You think that you can do it your way. Until you will not driven to the point of despair by your own actions and thinking, as long as you think that there is another way, there is no chance for recovery. It is like a cancer patient taking vitamins instead of chemo.

The twelve steps is a change of attitude, a new way of life. Living only with Hashem 24/7. Accepting our limitations, knowing our vulnerabilities, admitting our wrongs, and living a life that demands rigorous honesty, is all part of this new way of life.

I don't overcome it, Hashem does it for me. If you want to know more about how it works go to aa.org and look for a an open meeting in your area. Go there and listen in, and see how you can relate to them. When you will be ready accept that you have incurable mental disease and admit that you have no other option but to work the twelve steps of recovery, I will be glad to introduce you to a meeting in your area.

3) Boruch, I LOVED your post reply #70 where you write: Let the calling of the GUE Forums be to raise the rock-bottom so that it's within reach of not only all the addicts here but, as the originator of the 12 steps himself wrote, even "young people who were scarcely more than potential 'holics." . I agree that should indeed be our MOTTO!! Thank you!

battleworn wrote on 26 Mar 2009 13:54:


No problem at all battleworn. No need to ponder any of concerned_yid's claims or even argue over the meaning of yair shochet and what he "holds".

When you "Let Go and Let G-d" you can get big siyatta dishmaya. Look at the metzia I just found, it is the most absolute proof you can get on the meaning of the First Step.

I have already posted here from the SA manual for newcomers, but now I just discovered here our very issue discussed in beautiful clarity and detail by the originator of the 12 steps himself, in his essays entitled, 12 Steps and 12 Traditions, here discussing the First Step,

Bill W. 12 Steps and 12 Traditions p. 22][size=2][b]In A.A.'s pioneering time, none but the most desperate cases could swallow and digest this unpalatable truth. Even these wrote:


That should settle this argument once and for all.

So, it is time to move forward. Let the calling of the GUE Forums be to raise the rock-bottom so that it's within reach of not only all the addicts here but, as the originator of the 12 steps himself wrote, even "young people who were scarcely more than potential 'holics."

Elya wrote on 26 Mar 2009 22:27:


The bottom line is that the guy who wrote the email caused all of this. He claimed that 3 years of experience had taught him that etc. etc. etc. and being someone who seemed to know what he was talking about everyone was quite justified in believing him. Of course he had his own agenda, and we have been there and done that...

I have done what I can (plus I am about to do a little more in my next post) and at this point I am going to invoke AA's infamous Rule 62 on myself:

[quote="Bill W. 12 Steps & 12 Traditions, page 149]
"Then he did something else that was to become an A.A. classic. It all went on a little card about golf-score size. The cover read: "Middleton Group #1. Rule #62." Once the card was unfolded, a single pungent sentence leaped to the eye:"Don't take yourself too .... seriously."[/quote]

guardureyes wrote on 26 Mar 2009 22:47:


First I have another confession to make, yes I know this is a little grating to hear confessions the whole time, but welcome to life in the 'crazy house'. I have been really up tight about this, and I had to stop posting earlier just to make it in time for my SA meeting tonight. I knew that at least something would be good about the meeting because I had earned my 60 day chip --- today is day 66. But it was even better.

Andy, my original sponsor, a real type A, and hard-driven guy, asked that they make a reading from the personal stories of AA beginning page 417, 1st sentence, 1st paragraph:

AA]And acceptance is the answer to [i]all[/i] my problems today.[/quote]

And I realized, as I was hearing the reading about acceptance, as it went around the room, and as I read my paragraph, I discovered how absolutely furious I was about the way concerned_yid had tried to wrote:


The reason both you and Rabbi Twersky took him seriously was his earnestness and his familiarity with SA. Neither you nor Rabbi Twersky have any first-hand knowledge of SA and here was someone with 3 years of first hand experience. Obviously both of you would take him seriously.

What we now know beyond any doubt whatsoever, regardless of his motives which are for the Eibishter to judge and not me, that:

1) He is not a reliable source of information. His information on the First Step and 11th Tradition are so far off base that I am reminded of Rashi on Chumash, about the Avodo Zoros hakrovim, 

דברים פרק יג, פסוק ח: הקרובים אליך או הרחוקים - למה פרט קרובים ורחוקים אלא כך אמר הכתוב מטיבן של קרובים אתה למד טיבן
של רחוקים כשם שאין ממש בקרובים כך אין ממש ברחוקים

From what we know is incorrect, that is his claims on the First Step and 11th Tradition, you can discern the story with the rest, in other words, you know just how unreliable are his claims of knowing sincere people who did not hit rock bottom, disclosing anonymity.

2) He is very very far from being objective.

As such it is clear to me that we were fooled by his sincerity to preserve his anonymity into believing that he was overall a reliable and valuable source of information, and now at the very least it turns out that we cannot take anything he says at face value.

If it were my site and my question to Rabbi Twersky, inspired by someone who had represented himself as knowing exactly what he is talking about and it turned out that he was not reliable, and I realized that obviously at the very least, he had a big agenda and a lot at stake, and I had assurances from someone else who knew the program at first-hand, who was ready and able to demonstrate the validity of everything he is saying, I would not hesitate to remove the question from the site and dismiss the whole issue.

But it is not my site, it was not my question, I have said what I have to say, and I am going to "Let go and Let G-d"

Our addiction tells us to latch on to anything which is easy and simpler than the 12 steps that is going to pull us out of hell.  Now we're using expert Rabbis out of context to excuse us from the one thing that is going to help us.  Oh! You're making the Y'H so happy.

Let me see if I understand all of you.  You're looking at porn, looking at women on the street, etc.
BUT G-D forbid you should go to a safe place where there might be a woman.  OMG that's OSSUR, right?
I mean you might actually learn from another human being, even if she is a woman that they have feelings too.  And how they feel when they're looked at, googled, at, whistled at and made into sex objects on screen and off screen.

There are reasons why hundreds of thousands of alcoholics have become sober, even Jewish ones, through the 12 steps, because they work, and to use Rabbi T. as an excuse means to me you're not interested in getting sober or into recovery... and that makes me very sad.

This post is not meant for anyone in particular.... just my thoughts in general.

guardureyes wrote on 26 Mar 2009 09:23:


In AA they say Keep it Simple.

I thought the issue here was very obvious, but no, you think that concerned_yid has his opinion, Rabbi Twersky has his opinion and I have another opinion, and I say, if Guard missed it totally then apparently it's not obvious at all.

So let us start with a simple statement of facts.

The question was "Is SA for everyone?"

concerned_yid who is an SA member for three years made impassioned pleas as a member of SA and at least twice actually referenced SA beliefs specifically. He mentioned the First Step and he mentioned the 11th tradition about attraction as opposed to promotion.

Clearly he would have everyone reading his email believe that he has correctly represented SA teachings.

The truth is sadly very very different.

And we don't need to take my word for it. This is easily verifiable by anyone. But before we come to any conclusions on concerned_yid's email and phone call to you, let us just stick to the facts.

Let us start with the concerned_yid version of the First Step.

He wrote in the clearest terms,

[quote="concerned_yid]The first step says "we admitted that we were powerless" and "that our live had become unmanageable" ... Honestly speaking, most people on your site, Boruch Hashem are not there yet. They still have a job, were not caught by their spouse or boss, did not accumulate so much debt that bankruptcy is the only option, and are nor not having sleepless nights because they are so miserable with themselves, or became suicidal."[/quote]

The SA brochure for the Newcomer has a very different First Step.

But let us first get a little background from the SA brochure for the Newcomer on what SA is and who it is for:

SA][b]Is SA Like Group Therapy?[/b]

SA is not a form of sex therapy or group therapy. SA meetings are conducted by SA members using our meeting guidelines. There are no professional leaders at an SA meeting. [b]SA is a program of recovery from lust and sexual addiction based on the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous[/b]. Whatever problems we bring to SA, we share a common solution — the Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions of recovery practiced in fellowship on the foundation of sexual sobriety.

[b]How Can I Become A Member?[/b]

[b]All who believe they may have a problem with lust are welcome to attend SA closed meetings[/b] and may consider themselves members if they say they have a desire to stop lusting and become sexually sober.[/quote]

So what is this problem that SA refers to?

The SA pamphlet continues:

[quote= wrote:


The problem is a loss of control over sex. That problem is overdoing it and being unable to stop.

And in case that is not already clear enough, it does not get any clearer than this explanation of how the First Step is understood in SA:

SA][b]How Can I Tell If I’m Addicted?[/b]

[b]You have to come to the realization for yourself. Recognizing our own powerlessness is what we call “working the First Step.” As the First Step states, “We admitted we were powerless over lust—that our lives had become unmanageable.” It takes time and often a lot of pain to admit we are defeated. Sooner or later, we say something like, “I give up!”[/b] or [b]“I need help!”[/b] or [b]“I can’t do this by myself any more!”[/b]
[b]
Each of these statements is an admission of powerlessness.[/b][/quote]

[b]And right there is the SA definition of powerless and unmanageable.[/b] And just to make sure the newcomer knows how powerless and unmanageable his life has already become the brochure continues with a test list of symptoms:

[quote= wrote:


That is the problem and the addiction. What does SA suggest as the solution?

This is what they write immediately following the above list of test symptoms:

SA][b]I Know I Cannot Stop on my Own. I’ve Tried Before And It Did Not Work. Are You Saying It Is Actually Possible?[/b]
Yes, it is possible. There are sober members of SA all over the world, both single and married. Together we can get sober and stay sober in SA, as we work the program one day at a time.

[b]What Do I Have To Do To Get Sober?[/b]
While there are no absolutes in the SA program, we can share with you what we know about getting sober. We go to meetings; we work the Steps; we use the literature (both SA and AA); we have sponsors to whom we talk on a regular basis. Many of us have come to trust in a Higher Power who keeps us sober.[/quote]

What next? Do we need to wait until we are suicidal? Does the solution only work for people who have hit rock bottom? Here is what they say next:

[quote= wrote:


So much for concerned_yid's claims. They are false. Every one of them.

And, before we come to any conclusions, let us establish the facts clearly:

Fact: concerned_yid has totally misrepresented SA's definition of addiction and SA's definition of the First Step.

Now to his claim about the 11th tradition of attraction and not promotion means that you should not post the 12 steps or link to SA because online information about SA would be promotion.

Well, here is SA's website.

And here is their online list of 12 steps, linked by the way prominently on the sidebar of their homepage.

But the claim is false for many other reasons.

The first is that it is a total distortion of the meaning of the Tradition. Alcoholics Anonymous has always given interviews to the media. They were successful after in 1939 the Chicago Plain Dealer ran a series of articles on them. The wording of the Tradition itself makes it clear that they are into promoting AA activities to the media. This is how the tradition begins:

SA]
Our [b]public relations policy[/b] is based on attraction rather than promotion; we need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of [b]press, radio, films, and TV[/b].[/quote]

So if there is a Tradition about publicity to the media what does attraction and not promotion mean?

The 11th Tradition as explained [url=http://www.aagrapevine.org/stepsTrads/checklist.php]here[/url] by AA publications means this,

[quote= wrote:


Needless to say, linking to the SA website and posting the 12 steps are very far from being in any breach of SA Tradition.

Even more to the point, SA Traditions are only binding on SA groups not on GUE.

Fact: concerned_yid has totally misrepresented SA's 11th Tradition.

These are the facts.

For now.

I will comment later on their significance.

Suffice it to say for now that concerned_yid's writings are a total fabrication and misrepresentation of SA and they should be removed from this site ASAP.

I will post more later.

I’ll try to explain a bit.  You say
  This is the opposite of what I’m describing (although it’s not a bad thing).  The goal is not to identify what you’re doing that’s wrong but how you feel about doing what’s right (read that one again).  Of course everyone “wants to do the right thing”, but that’s a clich? and means very little to most people, and addicts especially just skim the words, throw up their hands and go back to feeling even more depressed.  You have to think about what the right thing is and why.  But not in an intellectual way, in an emotional way.  When doing so, try to avoid clich?s (I would quote the Mesilas Yesharim’s hakdama here but that too has become a clich? and that’s really scary).  That means forcing yourself to think beyond the superficial meaning of the words, so you’ll have to do this slowly.  Start by thinking about why you’re on this world and what you were created for.  What is the challenge of life?  Mesilas Yesharim is great for this – it answers all these questions in detail.  The answers are basic but reviewing them and thinking about them helps you get to the next step -apply them to your life in a practical way.  Not by making kabalos or setting goals (at least not initially) because that’s in your brain, not your heart.  Rather, by thinking about how consistent you are (or aren’t) with those ideas right now.  First, do you agree with them and accept them?  Again, do this slowly, don’t just say “of course I do”.  If not, why not?  For me, the answer was no.  I did not accept or agree – but as I thought about it, the reasons were not because the ideas were flawed but rather because I had always understood them in terms of what my parents and Rabbeim said about them.  And they said things incorrectly, without taking emotional needs into account.  So I rejected them…but now that I realized this distinction, I could re-acquaint myself with the ideas with the proper understanding.  And guess what?  I agree and accept!

For you the details are undoubtedly different, but the approach is the same.  Understand the goal, understand yourself, and then bring to 2 closer, bit by bit.  Until 120.

All through the book there's one and only one definition of an addict that never changes. As I said, if you read it it again (the part after Yerachmiel gets married) with an open mind you'll see that in his opinion Yerachmiel was not an addict and therefore not a candidate for the 12 steps.




That's a wonderful question. But I suggest that you ask Yair, not me.




I'm sorry if you thought that that's what I meant. Now I'll try to be very clear. The R' Y' tells his group that all through his months of recovery, WHILE HE WAS HELPING YERACHMIEL, HE COULDN'T FATHOM WERE ON EARTH HE WOULD EVER FIND AN ADDICT. Until he realized that there's an alternate way to do the 12th step without finding an addict.

Battleworn, I am happy to see you posting, and especially happy on the "tone" of your posting. I think you finally get what it is I have been excited about. I am learning a lot of new things from Boruch and from this thread!




I'm just curious how you know this? The second to last sentence of his book says "To all those of you who recognize that you suffer from addiction, I strongly suggest joining one of these addiction support groups." And if you'll say that it seems from the book that Yerachmiel doesn't need the groups, I believe this is only because he had the RY to help him. Otherwise, Yair would agree that someone like Yerachmiel would DEFINITELY be a candidate for the groups! How could he NOT be? He was doing the worst things. Does one really have to be suicidal before they are candidates? And if you'll say that that's what Yair seems to imply in the book, I repeat my opinion; that's only because he had the RY to help him. Do you have any PROOF that Yair holds this way?

I just noticed this post of yours somewhere else:




Helping someone not to reach absolute rock bottom does not mean that the person they are helping is not a candidate for the groups. It's the other way around. The 12th step is to help someone who IS a candidate for the groups, either through counseling him (as the RY did) or by convincing him to the join the groups, IN ORDER THAT this person shouldn't have to hit the very rock bottom.

Thank you GUE and Ykv for your advice and words of encouragement!

My wife and I have really come along way in the short time since she discovered my addiction.  Yesterday was the first day since Monday night that my wife was not constantly crying.

My wife called one of the other wives from the SA group and that did help to some degree.  Yesterday, however, she called a Rebbetzin that she is close with and told her that her husband was struggling with something for a long time and that she had just found out.  This Rebbetzin did not ask for details, but told my wife that although she did not ask for this, it is incumbent upon her to support and encourage me and that in the process our marriage and our relationship will be strengthened as a result.  She also told my wife that when there are no secrets in a marriage, a husband and a wife can attain a certain level of closeness and contentment that will radiate throughout the rest of our home and family.  She told my wife that if she every needed to talk about anything, she will always be there for her to talk to.

My wife also spoke to a therapist friend that she is close with and she also helped my wife come to terms with this.  She used terms like "cognitive dissonance" and told my wife how my rocky childhood drew me into the comfort that P and MB had to offer.  I am not a big therapy/psychology person, but it did provide an additional layer of comfort to my wife.

The bottom line is that my wife is now fully on-board and has encouraged me to talk to her whenever I feel urges or temptations.  She even told me that I should feel free to wake her up in the middle of the night if I ever need to talk or feel compelled use again.

My wife and I have done a lot of talking over the past 3 days and I feel that it has already started to bring us closer.

I will continue to read the 12 step literature, continue to go to meetings and continue to work the program with the group and with my wife.

I have been davening that Hashem should help me make a full and complete recovery and can see him b'chush starting to lay out the pieces.

Ho'du La'shem Ki Tov ... Ki Leyolam Chasdo

When Rabeinu Guard moved this thread to here, I wished he had deleted it instead. But now I'm beginning to really enjoy it. I always wished there would be more discussion about the 12 steps, the definition of an addict, how the groups affect frum people etc. I did ask some questions on a different thread and I thank Elya and R' Guard for answering, but it wasn't at all enough to satisfy me (I know that I also have to read up on it, but first I needed some direction and, of-course, mareh mekomos)

As far as the definition of an addict and who's ready for the groups, Yair Shochet also holds like concerened_yid. Boruch, can you provide solid proof that they're wrong?

I also want to say that, I'm very impressed and inspired by your honesty.

One of the most significant things that came up here is the issue of finding the right group. This was very lacking before and I think you -Boruch- did us a great service by raising this issue. On this page:www.guardureyes.com/GUE/Tips/12StepsQuest.asp
the following question is asked (question 4)


As of today, b'h my only problem is mainly masturbation and porn, I am concerned of hearing people speak of their experiences with other women and I will get too many good ideas at the meetings and begin exploring those ideas.  Also, I have heard that people attending the 12 steps sometimes get turned on by hearing other women talk about their sexual obsessions (I heard of a guy who hooked up with a women at the meeting, dunno if it's true), this concerns me too.

The answer given is the one that I quoted earlier (with the "crazy house...). In light of what Boruch has taught us about conservative groups, groups that consist only of men etc. and the necessity of finding the right group, this answer clearly needs to be rewritten.   

Bi'sheim Hashem Naaseh Vi'natzliach!

Boruch, your posts are always very informative and wise, but a little too long and a little too harsh and personal. Here is a repeat of what you just said, in a shorter fashion and without the harshness:

I have read this page and I know the groups at first-hand and understand the natures of the concerns expressed. Based on my experience, I would take a less limiting approach on the guidelines of who should be encouraged to join.

Anyone who seriously wants to be sober and is serious about doing what he can to make the groups work for him, should be encouraged to join. After all,  the program is about "helping the struggling addict". One does not have to wait until he is caught, arrested, bankrupt or suicidal.

To decide if the groups are for you, simply ask yourself if you think there is any way you would be able to stop on your own without Divine help. If the answer is "no", then you are an addict as defined by AA.

So you have a problem - but there is a solution. That solution is a program that is the following:

1) A religious program -- which is about sincerely, deeply and very honestly asking Hakodosh Boruch Hu for help (within the framework of your own Yiddishkeit).

2) A program that requires a personal housecleaning -- doing the program means looking ruthlessly and honestly at every aspect of their character and being ready to have all the flaws removed.

3) A fellowship of people to whom one must have loyalty, at the very least as far as absolutely protecting their anonymity. This means that you must be ready to absolutely guarantee that you will do nothing whatsoever to compromise the anonymity of anyone in the program.

The program is indeed NOT for someone whose only reason to go to the groups was that they are being dragged, kicking and screaming by those who caught them, their wives, Rabbonim and/or askonim. It is also not for someone who is going only so that they can say "see I tried the groups and it didn't work!". Because when people don't feel a desperate need to be there, they can indeed be a significant risk factor to themselves and to others, until they either come on board, get with the program or leave.

There is a famous joke about two elderly and learned baalei mussar who were sitting in the beis hamussar, each in his own corner, crying "ich bin a gornischt", "ich bin a gornischt" and in walks a newcomer and says to himself, unbelievable, such choshuve yidden and they think that they are gornischt, what should I say? At this he bursts into tears and starts crying, "ich bin a gornischt". Immediately the two baalei mussar get up outraged, "Just who do you think you are that you say you are a gornischt!"

The 12-Steps are about realizing “Ich bin a gornisht” – Hashem is the one who fights for me. We have no right to create rules of how much "seniority" or "severity" is required to say, "ich bin a gornischt". The only criterion should be seriousness.

See again this page. I have incorporated your opinion there.

Thank you for sharing this. I sent your comments (my version of them, not yours :-) to the author of the letter and to Rabbi Twerski as well. We'll see what they say.

guardureyes wrote on 25 Mar 2009 07:28:


Guard, I have read that page at length, and unlike Rabbi Twersky, I know the groups at first-hand and I understand the natures of the concerns expressed, and I can tell you that the page should be removed entirely from the site ASAP, as quickly as you removed that picture of the woman, if not more so, because this email is even more dangerous.

Here is why.

For those who don't have the patience, the bottom line is that this email does address potential concerns and real issues. However it is also an unwitting, but self-serving distortion that has lead many who are uncomfortable with the groups to honestly believe that the groups are a bedieved.

As much as there is some truth in the email there is plenty of false paranoia, exaggeration and distortion.

An honest, simple, common sense approach is a much better way than all the false fears and paranoia:

[quote="guardureyes]Dear Rabbi Twerski,

If I can please ask some important advice in regard to our website wwww.guardureyes.com. I was contacted yesterday by someone who has nearly 3 years of sobriety after attending the SA groups in New York. He's a chassidishe guy, and he had fallen into a terrible sexual addiction with no limits at all, until he finally surrendered, and today he's almost 3 years sober B"H and helps others in the groups as well. He pointed out to me that I am too quick on my website and in my advice to people, to send them to the groups [/quote]

I did this too and as I wrote above that is not how AA and SA recommend working with others. People need to find themselves, they need to discover for themselves to what degree they are addicted and ideally they should come into a 12-step group because they feel they have to and because they need to, not to try it out.

[quote="guardureyes] and that this can sometimes cause more damage than good if the person is not fully ready for it. (By "being ready for it", he explains that the person's life has become unmanageable and he'd rather die than continue, but he can't stop). The reason it can cause damage he claims, is firstly, because the Jewish community is small, and someone who is not sincere can expose others in the group and bring real Gehenom on others who are truly seeking the help that they need (and he knows stories to this effect)[/quote]

This is a very sad and unfortunate truth. I have heard from a member of an almost exclusively Frum 12 step groups where there have been real anonymity issues. I did not know this at the time, but my fears over the anonymity issue were the main reason that I decided from the outset to go as far as maintainable over the long term (1 hour drive) from home, to a group that has not seen a Frum Yid in years. It turned out that I was very fortunate, because the group I attend is made up of mostly religious, middle-aged and older men, it has members who have 15 years and more of sobriety, many of their members have been AA members with many years of sobriety from alcohol, my own sponsor has been with AA for 25 years, which is since he was 25. So I get to see the real deal and not a diluted and watered down version.

But let us be honest here. The purpose of the groups is to serve those who seek sobriety. If someone is serious, if he understands that the program is not group therapy, that it is not a support group, that it is

1) A religious program -- it is about sincerely, deeply and very honestly asking Hakodosh Boruch Hu for help.

2) A program that requires a personal housecleaning -- doing the program means looking ruthlessly and honestly at every aspect of their character and being ready to have all the flaws removed.

3) A fellowship of people to whom he must have loyalty, at the very least as far as absolutely protecting their anonymity.

If an addict is serious about all of that and is interested in committing himself to the program (rather than just testing the waters), then no-one is entitled to keep that addict out until he is caught, arrested or suicidal. So the description that "he would sooner die" is way over the top.

Yes, there is a potential for problems and certainly one should not directly and actively promote the groups, but if an addict is seriously ready for the elements of the program as above, then he should not be pushed away to a phone group because of concerns of the anonymity of current members. Anyone who is more concerned of their own anonymity than the recovery of an addict who seriously seeks sobriety does not understand the 12th step. The solution is to be selective, to screen, and to impress the seriousness of the program and the seriousness of anonymity on would-be newcomers.

But, let us be totally honest, the real threat to anonymity does not come from Guard's recommendations, the real threat is from an entirely unrelated problem that significantly threatens anonymity within many Frum groups. Many of the members of Frum groups would, initially at least, rather have died than gone to the groups. The only reason that they went to the groups was that they were dragged, kicking and screaming by those who caught them, their wives, Rabbonim and/or askonim. When people don't want to be there, they can be a significant risk factor, until they come on board, get with the program or leave.

So concerned_yid, anonymity is a concern, but you have identified the wrong cause.

guardureyes] Secondly, he claims that if they are not fully ready, they will only learn worse things, end up leaving the groups and falling even harder (and he knows stories like this too).[/quote]

You find what you are looking for. People who are serious about recovery are looking for recovery not excuses to become worse. The key is to sort out the addict who is serious and ready to commit himself entirely to the program and not someone looking for an excuse to say, well I tried that too and it didn't work.

[quote= wrote:


What we can do here on the site that is very much in line with AA's "Working with Others" is:

1) Help people discover whether they are able to stop on their own

2) Inform people that there is a problem and that there is a solution. That solution is a program that as above:

a) Is a religious program -- it is about sincerely, deeply and very honestly asking Hakodosh Boruch Hu for help, within the framework of your own Yiddishkeit.

b) Is a program that requires a personal housecleaning -- doing the program means looking ruthlessly and honestly at every aspect of character and being ready to have all the flaws removed.

And they need to understand that they must be ready to absolutely guarantee that they will do nothing whatsoever to compromise the anonymity of anyone in the program.

[quote="guardureyes] Therefore, I wanted to ask the Rav's advice on this, since it is a serious issue. He claims it's a very big achrayus to send someone who is not ready to the groups, and that it can cause untold destruction and suffering to that person, or to the others in the group.[/quote]

The secret is, as above, as simple as weeding out those who are not serious.

[quote="guardureyes] I spoke with this guy already for over an hour and a half on the phone, and he seems to be very sincere and have a lot of good experience. If the Rav wants, I can ask him perhaps to even call and discuss this with the Rav. Besides for speaking on the phone, he also sent me an e-mail with these concerns. Here is his letter below:

concerned_yid]
It is important (vital would be a better term) to understand, that many, if not most, people on your website are not true addicts yet. They may have addictive behaviors and it will surely progress to the the point that their lives will become totally unmanageable that they will rather die then live such a life.[/quote][/quote]

This is an excessive definition of addiction that is nothing more than the personal opinion of a very serious and sincere individual who is justifiably concerned with the wrong people going to the program. [b]But, as sincere as this email is, it is however entirely off-base as a source for description of addiction.[/b]

The AA definition of the hopeless addict is someone who realizes that he probably will not be able to stop without non-Divine means. It is very safe to say that well over 50% of those who post on these forums fall very comfortably within this definition. And by the way, hopeless addiction doesn't mean those who cannot quit without an 'S' and 'A' group. Hopeless addiction includes all of those who are convinced that they probably could not have stopped or could not stop without Rav Tzvi Meir, Musar or any other religious or Divine means. [b]So the email author has it totally wrong, we are almost certainly 100% on addict percentage on this forum. [/b]

Of course not every addict should go to a 12 step group. For a start they need to seriously want to be sober and as above they need to be serious about doing what they can to make the groups work for them.

[quote= wrote:


That is a very good start. Sounds to me exactly like the AA description of an addict.

[quote="concerned_yid]No one becomes an addict overnight! [/quote]

There is a famous joke about two elderly and learned baalei mussar who were sitting in the beis hamussar, each in his own corner, crying "ich bin a gornischt", "ich bin a gornischt" and in walks a newcomer and says to himself, unbelievable, such choshuve yidden and they think that they are gornischt, what should I say? At this he bursts into tears and starts crying, "ich bin a gornischt".[b] Immediately the two baalei mussar get up outraged, "Just who do you think you are that you say you are a gornischt!"[/b]

So, the members of this site may not have done the years of recovery time that the email author has, but I can guarantee the email author that no-one comes to this site overnight. I did 36 years before I came here, and I don't believe for a minute that anyone comes here for the fun of it.

So we need to strike a balance. We need to weed out those who are not serious, who are fundamentally dishonest, who are really only looking for excuses and discover those who are serious even if they have not suffered for years and have not yet looked death in the eyes.

We may be very well-advised to wait for a week or so, after a newcomers first post, circumstances permitting, to get a better sense of who and what they are before giving anything more than initial generic information but we have no right at all to create rules of how much seniority or severity is required to say, "ich bin a gornischt".

concerned_yid]The help and chizuk received from your site, the phone meetings, and the forum may be exactly what they need to stop. The fact that that they are not alone and there is a loving and caring community that they belong to, may be just what they are looking for.[/quote]

And it may not be. The only criterion should be seriousness.


[quote= wrote:


Don't send anyone. Give information to those who we know are serious.

concerned_yid]Being is SA for nearly three years, I have seen so many people come in and leave, and I can say almost all of them did not come by themselves (rather, they were told by others to try the groups). [/quote]

[b]Yes, you have seen many people come and leave. They were [i]told[/i] by those who caught them who gave them an ultimatum such as, the wife who said, if you don't go you are going to have to give me a get, the employer who said, if you don't go, we are going to have to fire you, the Rov and askonim who said, if you don't go you will have to step down from being Rosh Hakohol, and the Rov and askonim who said, if you don't go we will tell your wife/your parents.[/b]

Come on concerned_yid!!! That is not at all the same as a recommendation made by one serious ex-addict to another serious aspiring ex-addict...

[quote= wrote:


You better believe it, blackmail doesn't always work well. People who are coerced into going will not always do well. People who are serious will never look for excuses.

[quote="concerned_yid]The first step says "we admitted that we were powerless" and "that our live had become unmanageable" this means one has to admit it not be told  "well, you have a problem, try this this may work". It also means that a person must realize and cry out: "my life is unmanageable and it can no longer go on like this anymore".[/quote]

And no-one says that anybody has to wait until they are ready to work the steps to attend. They just need to be seriously committed to getting what they can from the program beginning with the meetings and a sponsor. So let's not erect artificial blocks in the way of the struggling addict. Well intentioned or not, this is in direct violation of everything that the program is about -- helping the struggling addict, without your own personal self-serving pre-conditions.

concerned_yid]Honestly speaking, most people on your site, Boruch Hashem are not there yet. They still have a job, were not caught by their spouse or boss, did not accumulate so much debt that bankruptcy is the only option, and are nor not having sleepless nights because they are so miserable with themselves, or became suicidal. Sending some like this to SA will endanger them and the welfare of the others who already are in SA.[/quote]

This is very well meaning, but as Alcoholics Anonymous puts it, this is a perfect example of self-will run riot. [b]concerned_yid, I care about your concerns, I identify with your points but what you have written in the heat of the moment is a distortion of AA and SA. Ask your sponsor.[/b]

[quote= wrote:


No-one. That's why we need people who are serious and sincere. And concerned_yid I can identify for you myself with absolute 100% certainty many people on this forum, just by reading their posts, many people who are serious and sincere, many like myself, not suicidal, not facing bankruptcy, not having been caught who would pose 0% threat to your anonymity, unlike the "cases" being "thrown" into your group daily by the various disgruntled spouses, bosses and askonim.

concerned_yid] What about the welfare of their family, job, community status, shiduchim, etc.[/quote]

[b]And that is why we should be responsible and serious. But we must not be paranoid. That is self-serving and in violation of the whole purpose of the program.[/b] I sincerely suggest that you show this email to your sponsor and do a very searching, serious and deep 4th Step Inventory for all those who were similar to myself, who were not at the end of the road, who could have gained, but who, unlike myself, have been discouraged by the over-reaching tone of your email.

[quote= wrote:


If they are serious they will not. Guaranteed. If they do learn new things they were not serious to begin with and would have found worse things anyway. That, as you know, is what addicts do, along with making excuses, such as, "It was the groups that made me do it". No concerned_yid, this is not true at all.

[quote="concerned_yid]Anyone who really need SA, because the forum, chizuk, and phone meeting is not enough, will find it on your site, or you may tell him/her with my consent to contact me. If they are ready, I will tell them that it's not just them, they are not alone. I was there and B"H recovered, and that SA is my only option if I want live a happy life, joyous and free.[/quote]

concerned_yid, I know you mean well and I know that, like me, you care, so why not be a little more open-hearted to yidden who are suffering? As a chassidishe yid, you more than anyone, should understand that when a yid wants, no matter what his background, no matter what his situation, when a yid wants, no-one should put barriers between him and the Eibishter.

[quote="concerned_yid]Do not mention SA or 12 steps. This is one of the SA traditions "we grow by attraction rather then promotion". Please let me know.[/quote]

SA has a website and they do list the 12 steps together with a little introductory information. Are you more SA than SA themselves?

But I will be chosem bedovor tov and repeat,

[quote="concerned_yid]SA is my only option if I want live a happy life, joyous and free.[/quote]

[b]concerned_yid, I know you mean well and I know that, like me, you care, so why not be a little more open-hearted to yidden who are suffering? As a chassidishe yid, you more than anyone, should understand that when a yid wants, no matter what his background, no matter what his situation, when a yid wants, no-one should put barriers between him and the Eibishter.[/b]

Besides keeping focused on work, keep focused that G-d is in your heart.

Batteleworn posted today:

An addict tends to think of his world consisting of "me and the lust", with Hashem being somewhere far away getting "annoyed" and perhaps "frustrated" with me.

From R' Tzvi Meir I learned -and we all can and must learn- that my world consists of just "Hashem and me", with the lust trying to get between us and interfere with the greatest love that exists.

Keep up the good work!

We love you gettingHelp. Your honesty in facing this monster within is refreshing! Stick with us and we'll do all we can to help you!

I want you to know that I restricted your account only for your soul. Your soul can continue posting here, and read the other men's posts, and continue to get and give Chizuk. However, I did limit the account to your Yetzer hara, who you anyway don't want. As you know, with an addiction, the yetzer hara is so sly, so sneeky, so insidious and plays so dirty, that I wanted to limit his ability to bother you and give you crazy ideas. I wanted your soul to feel safe on this forum - and be able to use it only for Teshuvah and Chizuk, without being afraid from yourself.

I would usually block such a strong yetzer Hara from our forum altogether, but I hear your Yetzer Tov calling out for help with true sincerity and I want to give him a chance.

Please continue with therapy and please STRONGLY consider joining an all-men 12-Step SA group in your area. You need still to get more help than just therapy and posting on our forum.

We want to help you, we are here for you.