guardureyes wrote on 31 Mar 2009 11:57:


Actually I never said that at all and if we go apples to apples, it is not true at all that I feel I could not have done it without the groups. I'll explain and I will be a little more open about my issues.

I had a problem with images for 36 years. I was a periodical who consistently fooled myself that my interludes were successful abstinence and that I just had to get the interludes to last longer and I would be fine. I refused to turn to anyone for help, being convinced that I would handle it on my own. What was worse I convinced myself that my problem was not that bad because throughout the years I did my utmost and was largely successful at stopping my obsessions with the images every time I indulged, before I had gone "too far".

In addition as much as I sincerely felt that what I was doing was wrong and it did disturb my conscience, I never suffered from anything remotely like depression or remorse at all. On one occasion after a whole night of periodically viewing images I gave a Shiur and had no problem with it at all. Over a year ago Shomer caught me and it hardly made even a dent, even before he confided that he had the same issue. He told me how he had struggled for years and tried many options and I was impressed by his seriousness, but was very accepting of my own relative apathy, that was just me, I thought.

Then we were both yo-yo-ing in and out of sobriety backwards and forwards for over a year while Shomer was actively doing everything he could including working on his Yiddishkeit and being active daily with readings about problems with addiction, creating a blog on addiction, posting on various sites including this one, while I was happily burying my head in the sand, convincing myself that he had a worse problem than I did (which as a matter of fact, is very likely, although it certainly is no excuse) and just accepting that I meant well and was doing my best without seriously trying anything.

Then in December after a sustained period of relative sobriety my addiction returned with a vengeance. It got progressively worse and worse until I was involved every day and much more consistently than I ever had been.

My rock-bottom came on January 19th. By that time I had been spending hours on end every day gazing at images, despite filters and accountability software and whatever else. By January 19th though, I had been clean for a couple of days. I had a couple of near misses when I was almost caught by a Rov, but that was a story in its own right, I had beefed up our accountability system, I had confided in my therapist and that day I discovered Shomer's posts on this forum and was truly impressed. I felt for the first time that I was actually taking my addiction seriously and that I was finally beyond it.

That night I was alone and working, I got distracted and in no time I was engrossed as never before. At some point I caught myself and saw on my watch that it was time for evening seder and for the first time when presented with the conflict, instead of half-heartedly lying to myself that I would go in just another minute, as I consistently did in the past, I actually wanted very very much to go to seder, not to escape my addiction, but to be a part of the learning. I realized that at that point in time I was powerless and I just watched as I was taken over and time ran out and seder was over as much as I had really wanted to go.

Later, when the madness left me and I had returned to my senses, I realized that I had totally lost control. Here I had really wanted to go to seder without excuses and I had not been able to. Despite the fact that I had told my therapist. Despite the fact that I was almost caught. Despite the fact that we had improved our accountability system. Despite the fact that I was serious for the first time. Despite the fact that I had been so inspired that afternoon by Shomer's posts. Despite the fact I had been convinced that I had said goodbye to my addiction forever.

And I was seized by a passion. This had gone far too far. A red line had been crossed, and for the first time, without any excuses it was clear to me that, that night, my addiction had clearly and obviously licked me. I was not going to take that lying down and I made a decision. There was no way that I would ever let that happen again.

I made a decision. I knew that I had one weapon with which I could destroy my addiction for good. I knew what I had to do and so I enlisted my biggest yetzer hora, my pride, to destroy my lesser yetzer hora, my addiction, once and for all. I decided right then and there to post on this forum and publicly and dramatically crush my addiction, do a permanent azivas hachet and a real teshuva, right here on these forums.

So could I have done it without the groups? It depends what "it" is. I had given up pornography for life, forever, no ifs ands or buts. I was determined to do a genuine and lasting Teshuva with all 20 ikkarim of Rabbeinu Yonah, including a total transformation of my avodas Hashem. And I am convinced that I did not need the groups for that.

So if the narrow goal was to get beyond the images, to do a full Teshuva on the images and to transform my avodas Hashem, no, I believe that I would have kept that up without relapses, ad meiah ve'esrim. Of course I may be delusional, but whether I am right or not about that I certainly never said that I could not do "that" without the groups.

Here, though, is what I would never have even dreamed of without the groups, never mind have implemented:

1) I had given up pornography, but it would never even have occurred to me to give up the excessive and unnatural cravings of the taava itself, what SA calls lust. BeChasdei Hashem Yisborach I found SA and I gave up lust, the "right" to lust and the "expectation" of lust forever, I have finally given up on all the obsession and compulsion that used to be such an integral part of my physical desire.

2) I had a concept of tikkun hamiddos, but I thought, that as R' Yisroel Salanter said, it takes a lifetime to change a midda and everything I had tried for over 20 years of learning mussar seemed to back that up. Of course R' Yisroel was certainly 1000% right, he knew what he was talking about. But that was not my issue, nor is it the issue with us addicts. In fact one of the most widespread misconceptions is that this has much relevance to anyone today.

Here is why.

We have our natural middos and those take a lifetime to change and improve. However, those middos that we have are supposed to be balanced, as the Rambam says in Hilchos Deios in the Derech Yeshoro, the Derech Hamemutza. We live, however, in a society that between stresses, selfishness and poisonous attitudes ensures that the biggest middos issue of our dor is not that we have not improved beyond the default nature of our natural middos, our problem is that the natural middos we have are totally unbalanced and have run amok.

For years I was trying to work on my middos instead of realizing that I would do very, very well with my middos as they are naturally today, if only I would learn derech yeshoro, if only I would learn to be a mentsch and not behave as if I were less than a beheimo. And I can tell you from personal experience that joining the fellowship is the most foolproof, most effective and fastest way to gain mentschlechkeit that I have ever encountered.

Joining the fellowship gets straight to the core of how to behave like a mentsch in a totally new environment, learning alongside others, and I for one could have learned, read, analyzed hundreds of times and even tried to practice the Steps from the Big Book, which by the way I would never have done anyway without the groups, and I could have become an 'armchair expert' on the steps, but I would not have become much of a mentsch without having had to interact with others in the group, without having to have gone through joining as a plain newcomer and without having to grow into the groups alongside others who were more senior and more experienced. That was a new and very humbling experience and it made something of the beginnings of a mentsch out of me.

For me this was even more pronounced because I was very self-conscious of joining a group with Frum Yidden, and to a certain extent I was also concerned with my anonymity and so I had chosen to join a non-Jewish group. I was unable to impress any of them with my learning and determination because almost to a man, they appreciate humility and patience much more than they appreciate learning and determination.

Of course, it is a very good thing that SA is about anonymity, that it is about principles and not personalities, because if we are talking about personalities, if we are talking about me, I am not yet an example of a mentsch by any stretch. That said I have made progress in a very short time that went well beyond my wildest expectations. I could never have done that without the groups.

3) I would never in a thousand years have broken out of a self-centered and self-righteous existence that I had for years been excusing with chayecho kodmin, torah hi velilmod ani tzorich, talmud torah keneged kulom and other examples of Torah and Maamorei Chazal that I was using out of context to justify my lack of basic mentschleschkeit.

Again beChasdei Hashem I found the groups and discovered how to help others on a consistent and ongoing basis, for them and not for me, as opposed to once in a yovel putting other people first in my mind.

So, it all depends on what the "it" is.

Being honest and putting modesty aside, I do not for a minute believe that I would be doing any less than what I have seen Yaakov post about on this forum (obviously I don't know what he has not told us), albeit in my own way, even if I had never gone to the groups at all and without working the Steps at all, on any level whatsoever.

But without the groups my Recovery would be a very poor shadow of what it is now. I truly believe that the Eibishter saw that I was at least a "bo letaher" if nothing else and in His Chesed, without any merit on my part, He had Rachmonus and directed me toward a Derech Yeshoro unlike anything I have ever known or experienced.

Boruch has certainly expressed very clearly the benefits and necessity of going to meetings while simultaneously working the steps.

In addition to the benefits of working the steps within the context of a fellowship that boruch has described, there are numerous practical benefits to joining a group as well.

1) Emotional Connection:  Although these forums and the phone support groups are excellent resources that can and should be utilized to their maximum capacity, there is, in my opinion, no substitute for the emotional connections made within an SA meeting.  There is no substitute for sitting in a circle and openly admitting "Hi, my name is Yankel and I am a sex addict.  My addiction takes the form of ........... and I have been sober X amount of days".  There is no substitute for sharing your struggles face to face with a group and working real solutions.  I witnessed a member break down in tears at a recent meeting and although he did not say very much, his message was conveyed loader than mere words have the capacity to express.  Go to a meeting, sit down with others that are suffering as you are, share your struggles, be inspired by their successes ... you will not be disappointed.

2) Phone Support:  It is common practice within SA to exchange phone numbers among members.  The first reaction that SA encourages members to take when they are faced with a challenging situation that they may not be able to handle simply by working the steps is to "make a call".  In addition to the meetings, which are in-and-of themselves very powerful indeed, having a network of people to support, encourage and help is another benefit of joining a group.  Now instead of only one number to call (boruch's), I now have many numbers of people with whom to to call when I am feeling tempted, frustrated or just need a listening ear.  If you have any doubts whether this works, I can attest that this is a core component of what keeps us sober on a daily basis. 

There are many more practical benefits, but you get the idea ...

As a relative new comer to the steps I have been working to gain a general understanding about what the steps are and how to properly apply them.

Perhaps the most shocking revelation to me personally, having come to the 12 steps out of the realization that I truly have no other option, is this.

The steps are not a self help program, they are not a psychological methodology, they are about making a connection with G-d in a very basic and real way.

For all these years I thought that I could fight my addiction with increased will power, with turning to Torah, with making nedarim, with setting up fences (filters, avoiding certain places etc.), but I am just beginning to realize that I cannot.  While in reality, this is a very tough pill to swallow, I do not think that my years of fighting and struggle have gone to waste.  Addiction, just like any progressive disease, grows and extends itself to new areas of the body over time.  Sexual addiction, as I am beginning to learn, is truly a spiritual disease.  If I did not struggle and did not fight with every fiber of my being for all of these years, I do not know where I would be today.  I can, however, say with certainty that it would be in a lot worse place than I am in today.  Although I did not have the right medicine to cure my disease, I was able to limit the degree in-which it spread, and for that I am truly grateful.

I once heard the question posed to an adom gadol ... why do some members of a secular family merit to become balei teshuvah whereas others do not?

The answer is that each individual has to be zoche based upon some individual good quality, character trait or deed to become a true baal teshuvah.

I personally feel that this same principle applies no less to those that merit to find a refuah to this spiritual malady.

I can say with honesty and from the depths of my heart that Hashem has truly blessed me with perhaps one of the most important gift of my life, the tools through which to get better, and for that all I can say is hodu la'shem ki tov ... ki leyolam chasdo   

Ykv_schwartz wrote on 31 Mar 2009 07:01:


Eme, Yaakov,
Here is my experience.

When you work as a Group you have the Power of the Group, just as soldiers find it easier to march when they march in step, so is it easier to Recover as a Group. This is one of the powerful elements in eino domeh merubim ho'oseh mitzvo and BeRov Om. For this reason many Gedolim from the Ramchal to the Chofetz Chaim encouraged chevras to work on specific inyonim.

That said, the single most important purpose of the Group is that the root of addiction is self-absorption and the foundation of Recovery is getting beyond self-centeredness in relationships and reconnecting with family, friends and peers in a giving way.

It is no simple task for the addict, whose addiction has heightened his self-absorption and disconnectedness, to start to reconnect to those with whom he already has relationships with in a new way.

The most effective way of doing this is by joining a new group of people in a fellowship that goes beyond themselves and serves a higher purpose, the purpose of recovery. Creating new relationships around something more idealistic with people who have gone through the same trials and tribulations, who understand the addict on his own terms is a vital and almost irreplacable link in the Recovery.

As open as I have seemed on this Forum on many issues, on certain very personal issues I have kept my cards very close to my chest. I have engaged in more than a little bravado on these forums (often as a mechayev to myself) and I have not bared much weakness (also a deliberate choice).

However, Yaakov, in response to your request for personal stories I am going to break that pattern for the first time.

I am going to limit the details here to a certain degree to protect my anonymity, but I can tell you that I have always been the quintissential loner. As much as I would be superficially sociable, and knew many many people, my relationships across the board were never more than skin deep, they were totally lacking commitment. Underneath I have always been a loner, through and through.

Today, I am a transformed man. I had a conversation recently with one of my children who told me, Totty you are a different man, just a month ago I would talk to you and you just did not understand at all what I was saying, and now you understand me so well.

Today, I am different in all my relationships. I am involved for the first time, I am more open and I am becoming more of a pleasure to be with (it's a strange thing to say, but what can I tell you, it is true).

And I am convinced that this is only the beginning.

I had at an earlier time in my life been involved in avodas hakodesh (I will not go into details on this) and it did not work out. I knew at the time that it was because although on the surface I appeared to be doing a good job, in reality I was lacking in emotional commitment and caring. Of course I did not realize at the time the full scope of the problem.

I had always dreamed that one day that would change. As the years have passed that has remained my dream as much as I seemed no nearer to it all those years later than I was the day I left.

Today, for the first time, I feel a shift in the right direction. It is still early days, and there is much footwork to be done, more remains to be done than has been done already, and I need tremendous siyyata dishmaya.

That said, I sense a shift, a significant shift that started by my getting beyond myself and joining the fellowship and connecting with people face to face in a whole new way.

Now you don't need to worry if you are not as pathological a loner as I was, because that's not a requirement to be able to benefit. Let's face it without self-centredness we do not get addicted. What I will tell you is that in my experience, if the Groups can work in this way for me, they can work for anyone and they can certainly work for you too.

Hi Think Good,

Step one is admitting that you are powerless over lust, so this very fundamental realization may in-fact be crucial to your success with the steps.

I was hesitant about joining a 12 step program for many many years and have only done so about 2 weeks ago.

I can only say that the transformation I have experienced over this short amount of time is nothing short of revolutionary for me.

As noted in many posts, however, you should choose a group wisely.

The best group for frum yidden is probably SA (sa.org) as its definition of sexual sobriety conforms to the basic tenants required by the Torah (no MB, relationships outside of marriage etc.).

I am not sure how things work in Israel, but it should be pretty easy to locate a meeting schedule off the sa.org website in the States.  Additionally, many large frum communities host their own SA chapters where other frum yidden attend and work the program.

I can say that the success that I see among the members of SA is truly phenomenal.

The bottom line, however, is .... as is expressed in the closing words of any SA meeting ... "it works if you work it, it won't if you don't".

So dear TG, meet Hashem half way and he will surely deliver you b'Shalom from the troughs of this terrible addiction.

Please keep us posted.   

Today's Chizuk e-mail (#443) is on it's way! I believe that what is says there is going to ultimately be your best bet. Let me know what you think of it.

Also, use this parable:

Some types of angler fish use a light on their head to attract prey right into their mouth. The little fish has strayed into deep waters and is cold, lonely and lost. Suddenly a little light appears. It looks calm and soothing, it looks like the light at the end of the tunnel. The fish is so attracted to the this light - he can't stop himself - and WHAM, he's dinner!!

Those who have become addicted to this behavior have strayed into deep waters. They have become troubled, lonely and depressed. When a beautiful woman passes by, or when the lure of the girls on the internet beckons, he feels he must have this fix for his troubles... he feels desperate for the warmth, the lust... he just wants to let go - the light is beckoning.... But, NO! STOP!!!! It's the evil one! He wants to destroy you! It's all a trick! Don't fall for it, or you're a gonner!

Dear Momo, I am happy you are posting here again, and that you are not afraid to ask whatever is on your mind honestly.

The fact you have fallen only 3 times in 43 days is incredible. Think about the hundreds of times you had to say "no" to the Yetzer Hara. You should be very joyful, for you surely have the upper hand in this battle and will emerge completely victorious if you continue in the path you have begun. And that is; to keep trying and trying, and not letting the falls get you down.

To answer your questions:




Some people have an easier time stopping mast than guarding their eyes. Others have it the other way around. In either case, it is the addiction to lust that is still controlling the person. Rabbi Twerski once answered a Bochur who claimed it was impossible for him to stop:

Contrary to logic, marriage does not help sexual addiction, and continuing masturbation after the marriage can ruin it. Even if it is totally controlled, he must tell the woman that he wants to marry that he had a sexual addiction.

His conviction that he cannot overcome the addiction is the addiction talking to him, saying, “Give up the fight, It’s useless. You’ll never succeed, so why put yourself through the misery.”

Other than try to stop and pray etc, what has this young man done to make essential changes in his character? That’s where one should begin.

I attended an AA meeting where the speaker was celebrating his 20th year of sobriety. He began by saying, “The man I once was, drank. And the man I once was, will drink again” (but the man I am today, will not). Alcoholics who have not had a drink for many years but have not overhauled their character are “dry drunks” and will often drink again. The same is true for sexual addiction.

How does one become a different person? By working diligently on improving one’s character traits. Learning how to manage anger, to rid oneself of resentments, to overcome hate, to be humble, to be considerate of others, to be absolutely honest in all one’s affairs, to admit being wrong, to overcome envy, to be diligent and overcome procrastination. In short, one should take the Orchos Tzaddikim (I’m sure it’s available in English), and go down the list of character traits, strengthening the good one’s and trying to eliminate the bad ones. This does not happen quickly.

When one has transformed one’s character and has become a different person, one will find that this “new person” can accomplish things that the old person could not.




The sin of masturbation is very great, Chazal have written terribly frightening things about it. However, there are a few points to keep in mind:
a) Our level of bechira is not always at 100%. Sometimes we have less bechira than others and sometimes we had no bechira at all. Only Hashem can know this. We, however, must always try our best. Why do so many people fall in this sin, if it is truly such a terrible sin? Hashem does this purposefully because Ain Hatorah Miskayemes ela bemi shenichshol bo Techilah. How can one learn to avoid sin unless he has fallen in it? Almost everyone falls so they can learn what to stay away from and how to fight it. But at the end of the day, Hashem judges us only according to our level of bechira.
b) Hashem wants us to try our best, and get back up again when we fall. But always remain happy. Feel guilty yes, but stay happy. See Chizuk e-mail #341 on this page for a very important and enlightening yesod.
c) I would like to suggest a powerful suggestion. Make a vow for a few weeks, that before you masturbate you will go for a 10 minute walk or take a cold shower. You will see that this will often help you let go of your lust or tension.




Here are some very important words of Chaza"l to remember: "There is a small organ in a man. When it is well-fed, it is hungry. When it is starved, it is satiated". The less you use it, the less you need it. See here for more on this. I know some people that limited themselves at first to once a week, and over time they were able to cut down more and more until they were completely able to stop. It could be, that through their hard work at cutting down to once a week at all costs, Hashem helped them ultimately to overcome it altogether. However, this is only if one's goal is stop completely over time. But not if he just decides that once a week is acceptable.

Remember though, it is never "all or nothing" in Yiddishkeit (see Chizuk e-mail #405 - 407 on this page for more on this important Yesod, and on how to plan a “battle strategy” in this area).

And Momo, did anything happen with your research into the 12-Step groups? The beauty of this program is, like I mentioned before, we learn how to stop "fighting" and just give up the lust to Hashem. If you are tired of "fighting and fighting" - SA groups are perfect for you! (See today's Chizuk e-mail #443 for more on this amazing phenomenon!)

In SA they speak about lust as being the culprit for our downfall.  Life will be full of ups and downs.
The purpose of recovery is to understand how to cope with these ups and downs.  Your journey has just begun and slipping is part of the journey sometimes.  BUT that is no excuse to continue to
tempt lust because the next time a person has painful feelings they will feel entitled to act out again.  And repeated acting out is not the road to recovery.  The road to recovery is not paved with good intentions, it's paved with sobriety.  Not acting out and not putting oneself in a situation where they are tempted to act out.

So I applaud your courage in realizing the slip for what it is, a lesson in the reality of this addiction.  All falls in life are learning experiences.  But we cannot keep heading for the open pit in the road... we have to take another path home.

Now the Gemoro tells us that Rebbi (Rebbi Yehuda Hanosi) points out that the bas kol called him Rebbi Eliezer b' Durya. The implication is clearly that he was called Rebbi because he is a Rebbi to all of us. The question is obvious, in what way is he a Rebbi to us, his case was so different than ours that he was unable to withstand the nisoyon and had to die. What lesson is there for us in that?

And I believe that there is a very powerful lesson that we can all learn from Rebbi Eliezer b' Durdiya. Imagine what it was like for Rebbi Eliezer b' Durdiya to realize that he was so addicted that all of his tefillos would not be able to change the fact that he had to die and that he would not be able to overcome his aveiros in his lifetime. Imagine that hopelessness. Talk about being absolutely and totally powerless. Once he was following through with his teshuva, as he had already decided he must, he was as good as a dead man walking. With such powerlessness, is it any wonder that he turned to the mountains, to beseech rachamim for him, because, they like him were and are paralyzed and unable to move? Reb Eliezer felt that just like the mountains are a kidush shem shomayim just in their existence so could he continue to exist powerless and paralyzed, but nevertheless alive and in his continued existence be a kidush shem shomayim.

And the mountains told him, no, we need to ask rachamim for ourselves, meaning, you think that you can become like us, but you are wrong. We were at least initially put into this powerlessness by Hashem, that is our role. You however were not crated to be powerless, Hashem gave you bechira and you squandered it, you chose to lose your free-will, you chose your powerlessness, and therefore yes you are powerless like us, but powerlessness will not help you, because that is not your avodo.

And it was in that very powerlessness, in which the only option that was left to him was death that he said what we would never imagine.

[b]When all hope is lost, when all power is lost for ever, when life is over and there is nothing more that can be done, the best that most human beings could strive for would be to mekabel yissurin be'ahavo, to accept the pain of death with love.[b] 

But Rebbi Eliezer b' Durdiya, in ultimate powerlessness, was able to realize what the mountains were telling him. As much as he had to accept his powerlessness, the powerlessness was not his tachlis, that was not his avodo. And it was then that he realized that there was still one thing left that he could do. He could scream.

And he realized that however small his avodo was, and however short-lived it would be, these few moments of screaming were to be his life's avodo... and that is what he meant when he said,

"ain hadovor toluy elo bi" -- I can only rely upon myself

What he meant is that he cannot look to what is avodas Hashem for others, like the mountains or even non-addicts. He had to serve Hashem with whatever he could do, regardless how temporary and futile it seemed, and no matter how powerless he really was.

And that was why Rebbi cried, yesh koneh olomo besho'oh achas... not the fact that he was ready to do teshiva, not the fact that he was ready to die to do teshuva, but that he realized that as powerless as he was, if he did the one thing that he could still do, no matter how short-lived it would be, that was as crucial and as important as an entire lifetime of avodas Hashem, and it was for that sho'oh achas of go'oh bivchiyo of screaming out from the depths of his heart that he got an olom habo for a lifetime of avodo, as Chazal say, echod hamarbeh ve'echod hamamit, uvilvad sheyechaven libo lashomayim.

And so to us. There are some who are tempted to say, as I did not so long ago, that we must not say we are powerless because then we will lose heart and give up. This is a lie. Do you know how we know that it is a lie?

Because R' Eliezer ben Durdiya will be mechayev anyone who claims that once they realized that they were powerless over their addiction, they lost their cheshek for avodas Hashem. L'achar meioh ve'esrim Hakodosh Boruch Hu will bring the example of R' Eliezer ben Durdiya and say, were you more powerless than he was? You are only powerless over your addiction he was powerless over his life. And yet he did whatever little he could, no matter that it only took a few moments.

Why did you not do the little that you were able to do? You were able to do much more than R' Eliezer ben Durdiya, you could have put filters on your computers, you could have had an accountability partner, you could have gone for help and listened to the advice you were given. Hashem will say, I allowed you to live, I allowed you to Daven to me, to put on tzitzis and tefillin, to learn, keep Shabbos and do all of the mitzvos and that is not enough for you? Why could you too not have accepted that echod hamarbeh ve'echod hamamit, uvilvad sheyechaven libo lashomayim? Why did you not understand that lo olecho hamlocho ligmor -- it is not your job to do everything, velo ato ben chorim lehibotel mimeno -- it is not because you cannot do everything that you should do nothing

The answer will become very clear then in front of Hakodosh Boruch Hu and the Beis Din shel maalo, le'achar meioh ve'esrim, even if it is not yet clear now. A true eved Hashem is happy with whatever avodos Hashem he can get, no matter how seemingly small and unimportant it may seem, and he understands that yesh koneh olomo besho'oh achas, that to the Eibishter a few short minutes of humble avodo can be worth a lifetime of avodo in ordinary circumstances.

We asked originally what we could learn from R' Eliezer's extreme and unusual circumstances that do not seem at first glance to have any relevance to us. We now realize that we can learn from R' Eliezer that avodas Hashem means being able to accept that you are powerless and nevertheless putting everything you can into what you still are able to do.

And that is the ultimate tikkun of the addict. The addict originally wanted to control his life, his circumstances and people around him, and as we said earlier, Hakodosh Boruch Hu showed him by afflicting him with addiction that he cannot even control himself.

What is his teshuva? He has to learn that he can no longer be in control. He must serve Hashem, on Hashem's terms, with Hashem being in control and not him. He has to serve Hashem with the same zeal and eagerness, even when it means that he must give up on all the gaava and kovod, even when he has to stare his own powerlessness in the face. Once he can do this, he has begun to learn the great lesson of R' Eliezer ben Durdiya, avodas Hashem is always worthwhile, especially when you cannot dictate it's terms.

And there are no short cuts. We may be able, without admitting powerlessness, to be mesaken the chet of our addiction itself but if we cannot bring ourselves to admit powerlessness then we have not even begun to be mesaken the original chet that brought the addiction in the first place, wanting to be in charge. And so not only is saying that we are powerless not an excuse to be demoralized, on the contrary, not being demoralized after we say that we our powerless is our whole teshuva.

I, for one, still have much work to do on this one, we should all be zocheh to serve Hashem on His terms, we should all be zocheh to a teshuva sheleimo bekorov.

battleworn wrote on 29 Mar 2009 12:26:


As a matter of fact I would be totally unfazed, I would simply tell him not to bother, I have been there and done that, why, I have even tried that here on this forum, and I can tell you from bitter experience that it doesn't work at all, it's not worth it at all, and all you get in return is addiction.

Now, I know you were speaking literally and not figuratively, but there is a very important mid-point between someone who, at one end of the spectrum, aspires to rule the entire Universe, as only rare meshogoyim like Nimrod, Paroh and Nevuchadnezzar have done, and thinking at the other end of the spectrum, that at least we can be in control of ourselves.

There are a significant number of people, who think that they can control, not only themsleves, but the people and circumstances around themselves and many are, like I was, driven out of frustration to addiction. 

This too, has more to it than meets the eye. At face value it seems like simple cause and effect. But addiction, like the makkos that Paro got, like the onesh that Titus got, and like tzoraas, is the Eibishter's way of showing us, you think that you can control everything, I will show you that you cannot even control yourself.

battleworn wrote on 29 Mar 2009 12:26:


This is very well said and once it is said, it is very self-evident, vehadvorim brurim lechol meivin.

battleworn wrote on 29 Mar 2009 12:26:


You could not have been clearer.

And Rabbi Twersky would doubtless, say, turn the page and you will see the First Step. But more about that in my response to Yaakov BE"H.

SKOI'ACH Boruch! That is indeed a metzia, as it's 100% clear. "Ein simcha ki'hatoras has'feikos" I love clarity. BTW this was also the maskono that we reached on my thread, but nobody was really sure that it was right.




Rabeinu, I'm sorry for bothering you about this, but I really don't appreciate being misquoted or misrepresented. I hadn't "seemed against any aspects of the groups" at all. I simply asked the following question:

Signing out ... no other websites visited other than work related and GUE.

One small success in this milchama ha'gedolah.

I just wanted to mention a point quickly.  I was catching up on the chizuk e-mail's and reading through the 12 step thread and although I am certainly no authority, I would like to offer an opinion based on the 2 weeks that I have been with the SA groups.

1) Regarding women in meetings.  I have been to 3 locations (2 non-jewish) and have not seen a female yet.  SA is a more traditional and conservative group and I believe the chances of encountering a women there are relatively small.

2) Based on my short experience, the groups themselves are VERY VERY powerful.  I think that ykv and battleworn have been so successful using their own methods because they have managed to stay pro-active regarding their addictions.  I myself am probably not as disciplined as either of these courageous warriors and tend to "forget" about my addiction as time goes on.  What inevitably happens is that I end up getting sucked right back in.  For me, I have come to realize that there is truly no other option.

Walking into that room day after day and listening to people that were sunk much deeper into the addiction than I was (prostitutes/affairs/same-sex) and have managed to stay sober for years is truly inspiring.

I truly admire and am envious of hero's like battleworn and ykv and wish that I had their courage and ability to connect with our holy Torah to the degree that it will supersede our addictive tendencies.  The reality, as has been demonstrated over and over again through the painful process of continual relapse, is that I cannot do it on my own.  I am grateful for the SA program beyond what words can describe.  It may not be perfect, but it works.

Hatzlacha to all!

guardureyes wrote on 27 Mar 2009 12:52:


Teire Reb Guard, you overlook one little thing, you did not keep this as much of a secret as you seem to think.

Why, there's one very obvious example of where this all came out that comes immediately to mind. Surely you realize that in response to concerned_yid's impassioned and lengthy assertions Rabbi Twersky briefly responded in light of his assertions that they should first go to the phone groups then. That's what you were referring to when you posted a while back to battleworn that Rabbi Twersky agrees that the groups are not for everyone. We both know now where that comment really came from. And that comment made it's mark here on the forums. And that became the Orthodoxy for you and others who saw that.

Do I need to remind you how this particular thread started? It was over confusion between you and battleworn on how to reconcile that isolated and brief comment from Rabbi Twersky, which you had referred to, with Rabbi Twersky's general stance. No wonder you had such a hard time trying to explain it to battleworn.

But it goes far beyond this one example. Let us face what really happened here. Initially as concerned_yid wrote, you as the site owner were referring everyone to the groups. Then came concerned_yid and you did a 180. Not only were you no longer referring everyone to the groups, you were now referring to the phone groups as first choice. Now, perhaps I exaggerate a little about a complete 180, but don't tell me that after concerned_yid's email, phone call and the response from Rabbi Twersky there was no swing in the opposite direction.

There can be no question at all that you have tremendous impact on the site and concerned_yid had impact on you. He did not need to influence anyone else to influence everybody. So which URLs should I point to beyond your original post to battleworn and the URLs of this thread?

I'll tell you which URLs were impacted, every single post you made after that phone call and email that dealt with the groups.

So all the talk about rock-bottom on this forum, all the talk about being ready for the 12 steps, all the confusion and equivocation on when the groups are appropriate is all thanks to concerned_yid.

Is it so surprising that it is no longer obvious to some on these forums just how disconnected from reality concerned_yid's assertions were? They have become a part of the furniture over here on the forums.

But there is hope, we can make a new start, we can make it all very, very simple and cover all the bases.

If we have someone who seems to be mature and sincere:

1) We can discuss the nature of the addiction with him exactly as Bill W. referred to when he spoke about raising the rock-bottom.

2) If they believe that they may have a problem and seem interested we can tell them that there is a solution with a religious component of turning in deep sincerity to HKB"H for help and a moral component of a personal housecleaning, by which he would be ready to give up all his character flaws and a fellowship that works the solution. We can explain that this solution is not group therapy but a religious and moral program of action.

3) If they are still interested we can impress upon them the imperative of preserving anonymity within the group.

4) If they sound sincere and ready, then we can send them to SA, knowing full well that we were not born yesterday, someone would not get this far and fool us, no-one prepared to go this far would "out" anyone else, and no-one serious enough to still display interest having heard the religious and moral part would subsequently, just throw in the towel, stop going to the groups, take as much bad as they could from the groups and drop out of Yiddishkeit. Whoever concerned_yid is talking about that dropped out of yiddishkeit would never have agreed to going to the groups with any of the above conditions. Like almost every Frum Yid today in SA, the people that concerned_yid knows from SA were not even prepared to go to the groups on any condition at all, they had to be forced.

So, I think that there is a time for common sense, a time to relinquish old and broken ideas and a time to focus on what we should be doing, getting as much help as we can to the mature and sincere addict who suffers, and the sooner we can get them that help the better.

There is no need whatsoever to sentence people to the potential of unnecessary months of struggle on these forums and the potential of unnecessary months of struggle in the phone groups if they are ready today for SA. If Bill W. wanted to help the addict who suffers when that addict was so young that he had hardly gone beyond pre-addiction, what should we rachmonim bnei rachmonim say?

"Let them wait until they are suicidal"?

We all on GUE have come  along way,each in our own special way.B'H there is a place likes this the Hashem has created in his loving kindness see that there is so much in the way of help for our addiction,it humbles me.We(I) need to reach out more and take it all in.I look at and read the different ways people,holy people o GUE have been giving and getting help and it makes me smile.I have been the so lucky and blessed to be on this site and receive so much help,thank GUE!!!!We must never ever let the y'h get us down,depressed or to give up.May we all be blessed to take the holy sparks of kiddushah from this Shabbos and use them to grow.

now that i slipped, i know what a slip is.here it is: you do NOT go back to the ways of addiction, that is out of the question. but to make a mistake, is a different matter entirely. as of today, i slipped once in 7 months. i think that's pretty good! those 6 and a half months are now part of my personality - i'm a changed man.not totally yet, but definitely changed.and i wont lose sight of the dangers of going back there, ch'v. it's like coming out of a dark dangerous cave out into the light.would you want to go back into that cave again?