Wow! This thread is deep and broad. It is nice to see everyone involved sharing the ways they use the sifrei yir'ah in these "trenches". I have strong opinions on this issue but I have found that getting fahitz'd over this kind of stuff, tempting as it is, is very bad for my sanity.
This much is hopefully OK, so here goes:
The main contribution of the 12 steps, the goal, is at the end: "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps..." Most of what I hear and experience in gaining this connection to Hashem(midas Yesod) is focused on getting myself out of the way (see Yosef and "vehizkartani" vs."bil'adai" in mitzrayim). It seems the 12&12 states this as the goal of the steps. In the seforim, on the other hand, teshuva, tikkun, emunah/bitachon, turning my will and life over to Hashem in accepting His Torah (and His better judgement!), and myriad madreigos in keeping the Torah and mitzvos are inexorably intertwined. This is good, as it brings yidden to living with Hashem mitoch their weakness and shows how the Torah and mitzvos are relevant to everyday life. Actually, they are FOR everyday life...a beautiful and powerful way to live! Well...it has a weakness for some addicts like me.
Addiction short-circuited avodah. Like many GUE folks, I was already frum before being out of control with lust, and my addiction grew tremendously within the framework of my growth in frumkeit, as I understood it. That is a tremendously painful and confusing way to live. Definitely some variety of gehinom...
In recovery, I accepted that I could not just try harder (or smarter) to use my obviously defective version of yiddishkeit to overcome the addiction. (We all know the first Tehillim: "ubesoraso yehegeh yomam volailah", after he studies the Torah of Hashem, it becomes your own Torah, see Sfas Emes p' Kedoshim on this, who explains the actual avoda requirements adjust per your chochma level  - what I am referring to may be the inherent down-side of that idea. In other words, every person, by definition, operates per their own personal understanding of emunah, Torah/mitzvos, not a gold standard. - Excuse me for getting drushy.)  
For me, Yiddishkeit - especially with all the deep and beautiful aspects of teshuvah, avodah, and tikkun - was  like driving in an eighteen-wheeler at 60mph! I was just not able to do it. It was too frustrating and complicated. My brain was too messed up, my ego and self-obsession was blocking out too much of reality, and I had the monkey of my sins on my back all the way. Life just drove me crazy. All the "one day at a time" talk in the unerverse was not enough to make me comfortable enough not to need to reach out for my drug. It bothered me: "Why isn't Hashem taking care of me?! Why do seem to absolutely need to reach for this shmutz? (we all feel we really NEED it when acting out, right?)"
I had to learn to get off the tractor-trailer and onto a bicycle. Same path, just in smaller steps and slower, and working them from the bottom up so they are real and not separated from the lev any more. I needed direction for this. It meant the basics(yes, of yiddishkeit) but packaged in a way that let them become real enough to naturally affect my thinking, for they obviously had not till now: (1) What is the truth about myself? I am an addict and hopelessly unable to beat lust, or use it. (2) Do I believe in Hashem? Not as a dogma (a shittah), but do I, can I actually believe that the all-powerful Creator really is here right next to me, sees me, and that He really is purely good. Yes, I can accept that and improve in that. Well, can I believe that This power right next to me is concerned and "trying" to help me if I just let him? Even though I have done terrible, foul things? Habitually. And lied about them. Yes, I can, and can begin to work to accept that more fully. (3) Now, Do I accept that everything He sends my way is for my benefit because He alone knows what's best for me? Yeah, I guess. Well, how about making a decision to turn my will and life over to him. This means really believing Sh'ma and the first possuk and the proof is: acting consistent with that belief. Well, I can't do that perfectly - I am all messed up!! (at least I can avoid lust to stay sober and work these steps to grow more sane!) Well, comes the program at this point and offers the fourth step. Finally a chesbon hanefesh. Not the reasons - just what happens. What is the problem of a person who reacts the way I do in these circumstances? What is actually wrong with such a person? With me? Not to change - I just want to admit it. Afterward, with 5,6,and 7 I can begin to get free of the twisted thinking that makes me so uncomfortable with living that temptations to act out begin to actually seem in my best interest (even if it'll mess everything up). Wow, the relief of a little safety.
Yes, once an addict, always an addict but that turns on and off depending on my spiritual state and upon temptations brought on me from the outside, sometimes w/o warning. I am allergic to lust. Just like a person with hayfever does not really have "hayfever" until the pollen hits, in recovery we can be in remission and perform just like a normal person (or better). Then something can happen and we need help. Or, we stupidly do something that a normal person can easily tolerate (like look at a little shmutz) and end up losing our days, weeks, months or years of sobriety in an hour and spiral downward to the lowest pit of insanity, to jail or even death. Hey, I've seen it happen and I've seen it almost happen w/me. So we are increadibly sensitive, even though we are growing healthy in recovery and our avodas Hashem is going great! So no, I am not safe. Maybe someone out there really is, though, who knows? Not me.
Is this "Ashrei odom mefacheid tomid"? Yes, if you understand "mefacheid" as living with the awareness that there is mortal danger on the other side of the curtain, but trusting Hashem to help you stay safe from it if you do His will for you. Clearly, anyway, everybody knows you cannot drive a car (or a bicycle!) in constant gripping fear of an accident. It's a sure way to get killed, actually! Why is avodas Hashem different? I believe it's not.
In the meantime, after a few years on the bicycle, it seems Hashem has graduates us to a mini-cooper. Never a Volkswagen! Sorry for the ramble. I hope it is understandable to somebody, and helpful.

HELLO ALL

Today I am in a non-bardichev mood .If this would have been a few weeks ago I would be feeding my addiction with the non-excuse excuse that I’m in a bad mood.
I'm sorry to upset you,bardichev gets into a bad mood once in a while too.

So I'm going to post a bit here.

I’m sure all of you are following the (healthy) debate on this forum there are differences of opinion where our recovery fits in with different parts of mussar, teshuvah, etc...

I don't want to debate anyone here but of course I have some two cents to add.

But I have to make an introduction and a disclaimer.

Disclaimer; I never went to an SA or SLAA meeting. Nor do I rigorously follow the 12 steps.

Having said that I would like to make this observation .It seems to me that the wonderful people who set up this site, who monitor it and who spend the time to answer people’s questions. The people who gave us a ladder to climb out of the pit the bowels of the earth, those good souls who showed us by example that we have hope and gave us the opportunity or better yet the LAST CHANCE to recover. They deserve our recognition and thanks .

I am not saying you need to swallow everything hook line and sinker. Yet if their perspective is based on their own personal recovery or experience with SA and 12 steps I feel out of HAKAROS HATOV it should be beyond debate. Not that my intent is to quiet anyone’s voice, but here on this platform we should bow our heads with dignity to those that helped are helping and will continue to help us. Again I have no personal experience with the 12 steps but I belive that the last step is to help others so it is probably as an extension of that step that this forum was set up.

So lets all be grateful and invest our energies in battling our Y"Hs and keeping each other in check.

Having gotten all this off my chest we can take it one notch up. If you think about it, it is also ATZAS HAYETZER to get us to second guess ourselves to think hmmm maybe I am not doing the correct teshuva.Lets not fall into his trap a second time!

Dovid Hamelech in Perek 51 of Tehillim says Laminatzayach mizmor L'Dovid KA-ASHER baah al Bas-sheva. (We all know the Gemara Lo chata Dovid ella lihoros Teshuvah Liyachid). Usually we would understand KA-ASHER to mean right away as soon as he committed the sin Nilsson Hanoi came to him. Which is a lesson in its own right that Dovid Hamelech was MODEH and did Teshuvah Right away without denying and evading the navi (unlike king Shaul and Shmiel Hanavi which is a different discussion)
Another pshat I heard said over in the name of the Skulener Rebbe Ztz"l KA-ASHER can mean in the same manner that Dovid Hamelech committed the sin, the same koach the same geshmak everything was the same.

I feel we can apply a very strong lesson from this vort .We all are addicts we are or were addicted to lusting (no debating that) we have to take our passion our fire our zeal ,even our LUST and put it into our Avodas Hashem, our relationships, and our self improvement. Many times a person will say I'M not nuts I wont daven with a BREN I’m just not that type I’m not the type to get excited by kabbalas shabbos I’m not the person who expresses himself and shows emotion. Says Dovid Hamelech Get PASSIONATE mit a BREN .Light a fire get lebedik not farsluffin.
Take all that energy and use it to light up your life and light up the lives of the people who love you the most. Light up the entire world...
If you read this waaay too long post thank you. I am feeling much more bardichev-like now.
Humble and happy
bardichev

p.s. if you’re in Meron please dance for all of us here in galus

yosefyakov,
Beautiful words.  At a later point, I hope to share a personal experience that relates to this idea you conveyed.
For now, I would like to relate a nice idea.

Reflections at the medura(bonfire)

As I stared at the medurah tonight, the music blared in my ears, my kids ran around with ice cream sticks, the fire roared high in front of me, a thought came to mind.  We know that Lag B'Omer is Hod Sh'BHod.  A lot can be said about each on of the midos, both from a nistar and a nigleh standpoint.  I would like to explain what Hod means in terms of nigleh, based in the words of Rav Hutner, and explain how it related to us as addicts and baalei teshuvah. 

Hod means growth through constriction.  Many times in life growth can only come about after a low point.  G-d's revelation in the worlds is referred to as Hod, becasue he is infinite and he constricts himself into the finite. This seems to be a bad thing.  constriction and falling low is viewed as a weakness. But, the midah of Hod transforms that constriction into growth.  Hashem's revelation in this world, albeit, a constriction leads to an ultimate purpose of growth and greatness. 

But there is two facets to Hod.  Number one, during the times of constriction, care must be taken not to fall lower.  If a person who falls and constricts  does not use Hod he can fall lower, which is called משחית.  So the midah of Hod means learning how to hold on tight when things are rough.  But, number two, is taking that constriction and bringing forth growth, this is called הדר.  Through the Hod, a person can create the the ultimate beauty.  This is true because what created beauty in this world is through extremes.  A good artist knows how to contrast colors properly to bring upon beauty.  A musician uses the contrasts of music notes to create beautiful compositions.  So too, the eved hashem that uses the exremity of life by goind from lowest of the low to the highest of the high to grow, is called beautiful, Hadar. 

This is so relevant for us for both reasons.  When I look back at my life, as much as things were difficult with my addiction, I needed to hold on tight to Judaism.  I did not feel like davening all the time.  There were times, when I felt that I could not hack life anymore.  I had to force myself to do miztvos even though my heart was so terribly concealed and hard as a rock from my addiction.  My emotional state was non-existent.  G-d has pushed me in this low state, and I had to use Hod to hold on tight.  I had to make sure not to make the downfall an endless pit.  I needed to make sure that my problem remained isolated to addiction and not let it carry over to the rest of my life.  And when I look back and realized that I remained true to the Torah and mitzvos despite these challenges, I am awed from my own self.  This was Hod. Don't get me wrong.  Things were not always gloomy.  But when they were, it was a nes that I remained firm to the commandments. 

And now when I reflect, I realize more.  I began to appreciate that my past is an entrance to my future.  I realize that I have grown from my state of constriction.  I have learned a lot about life.  I have learned a lot about human nature.  I have learned a lot about honesty. I have learned a lot about Hashem.  I have learned a lot what it means to be an eved hashem. And I realize I have potential for growth.  Where I used to view my addiction as an impediment for growth, I realize it can serve to be an impetus for growth. 

As I stared at the holy fires tonight, I realized how the fire itself has the midah of Hod.  The Fire consumes and destroys.  It is a destructive force in the world.  However, the very act of destruction is constructive.  The fire can create so much.  When you look at the bottom of the fire, all you see is destruction.  When you look above you see how high the flames can reach. 

The rock bottom of of the addicted individual is destruction.  Life is gloomy.  There is no hope.  All he can see is ashes.  But through that force can come construction and growth.  If you look up to the sky, your flames can reach great heights.

May we all be zoche to learn how to grow from our constriction!

hello everyone - it's been a while. i have said this before, but i feel it's time to repeat it.addiction stems from a mental disease.sometimes low self-esteem, low self-confidence, etc.it's all there in rabbi twersky's stuff.addicted people have more than the average temptations that a 'normal' person has. addicted people are trying to fill a void, they do NOT want to go against the torah. we understand that the torah is our lifeblood - why would we want to transgress it? no, that's not our intention. musar speaks to the non-addict, the person with a 'normal' amount of self-esteem, the person not plagued by emotional problems.you can learn all the musar in the world - if you are a true addict, it wont help. we have to deal with the emotional issues first, so that we can then obey the torah properly. IT IS OUR OBLIGATION to seek treatment for our emotional ills! we must seek out whatever works for us! and what works for one will not necessarily work for another.
and as for being past 90 days, i'm a 130 day man and i can tell you, once an addict always an addict.it's true that i do not suffer the same level of anxiety that i had during those first 90 days, but i still feel the 'pull' to sin, much more than 'normal' people who are not addicts. if you want to read about how much anxiety and withdrawal symptoms i had, read my story - i do not know how to put in a link here.when i felt the withdrawal symptoms, i called my sponsor and yelled my head off until the anxiety subsided.if not for him (i actually had a few sponsors) i would NEVER have been able to pull off the 90 days and beyond. if you remember, at 130 days, i got an overwhelming feeling of depression and mast- to remove that feeling.i'm now trying to avoid the scenario that got me into that depression - so far so good.
i love you all and wish you much success - whichever way it comes about and whatever methods you use.
jack

Aaron, I see YOU have truly internalized the midah of daaga.  You described it in perfect terms, and this does not deviate what my message was above.  I am glad to see that SOMEONE on this forums understands this.  It is not as daunting as Guard makes it seem.  I hope to explain at a later time what it means.  If one understand what daaga truly is, he will realize how much of an undercurrent of daaga is inherent in the 12 steps, as well as many principles of teshuvah from the Rabeinu Yonah. 

But the truth is that I think Guard does not agree with you (Guard, correct me if I am wrong).  Because rashkebehag's question originally was exactly that issue.  Should a person feel safe after 90 days.  My response was NO!  I drew upon my own experiences to prove the point.  And I quoted the same pirkei Avos that aaron quoted, which is the same pirkei avos that Rabeinu Yona quotes to explain this midah(1).  And that was my point.  Guard explained that we do not talk that way to an addict.  Apparently, Guard believes that a person should feel safe.  Please Guard, clarify.  As this was the main question posed to the forum.  Do you agree to the answer NO.  Or do you think YES.  Try to look beyond my sources, as that may offend you.  Just, what is the answer. 

I think the root problem here is that there is true lack of understanding of what daaga is.  When we hear the word fear, we all get scared as if this a bad thing.  I hope at a later time, to explain properly what this is.  My point on this thread was to just answer rashkebehag's question because he was curious about the future.  What is wrong with a bit of truth for he who seeks it?  And aaron agrees with me, as does the Rabeiunu Yona as does many secular works.  If you wish, I will quote, but I prefer to not quote secular books.  But if this would give people chizzuk, why not? 




Guard, you missed my point terribly.  Please read my posts.  I was not trying to explain to rashkebehag how to swim (I think I got that mashel(2)).  I was answering a question of facts. He wanted to know if he can feel safe. I answered NO.  That's it.  I then explained that feeling unsafe is part of the later madreiga of teshuvah.  As this is part of the factual question.  Again, do you disagree with this point?  Should a person feel safe?  Do you think we should hide the truth from people?  This is what we mean by "once an addict always an addict". What else does it mean?  I am not ashamed of this fact.  I can accept it.  That's life and that is my nature. 

I purposely did not elaborate on what daaga is (please reread my post) and I explained precisely what you are saying, that this midah/madreiga comes later on.  First a person needs to work on azivas hachet, which can take weeks.  I did not even address charata, the second step, until march 13, which was about 5 weeks after my journey began, which you can read about it here.  So I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.  And I mentioned it in my first post to rashkebehag above.  So, Guard, please clarify what your point is.  What did I say that made you comment?  This is getting very confusing.



rashkebehag, there is a difference.  Rabeinu Yona splits it up into separate principles.  Charata is #2.  While daaga is #5.  Charata is looking back to the past.  Daaga is looking to the future.  Azivas Hachet is about the present.  But as I stated, I did not even address #2 until after five weeks into my journey. Growing in avodas hashem requires lots of patience. 

Rabosai, I am sorry for causing such a stir today on this forum.  My intention was not to to insult anyone or shake anyone.  I was just trying to answer a simple question which erupted into a bigger than issue than we began with.  My approach of life has always been to be truthful.  It takes honesty to do things on Hashem's terms.  When I stop doing that, I falter.  This takes great care.  In the end of the day, my approach is not that different than many people here.  Perhaps I use a different language.  Please understand.  If anyone felt hurt or confused my my words, please contact me privately.  I am a very open minded person and I believe everyone's needs are different. 

~~~~~~~~~
1. The Rabeinu Yona makes it clear that a person on the "bad road" has a much greater obligation of daaga. 
2. By the way, a mashal is not intended to prove a point.  It is intended to explain a point. 

The discussion here is very sophisticated; trying to pinpoint where people are holding on the scale from being akin to an animal to becoming a perfect human being and which Torah sources would therefore apply.  I haven't fully formed my own opinion, in part because I haven't spent enough time studying the source material.  But I think we can at least agree on the answer to these questions from Ykv:



I think we can all agree that the answer is "No".  After 90 days and addict's life is not "back to normal", he is not like other people (although in a sense no one is because everyone has nisyonos.  And if no one is "normal" is then normal is redefined, and everyone is normal), a baal teshuva does need to act differently and should not pretend his past never happened (although other people should and for a true baal teshuvah, Hashem will too).  These answers are consistent with Rabbeinu Yonah (as per Ykv), they are consistent with the 12 steps (once an addict, always an addict) and they are consistent with much of the GYE Handbook.  Remember the Yetzer Horah of milestones?  Al taamin be'atzmicah ad yom moscha is, in a sense, more true for an addict than a non-addict.  Perhaps the "life saver" approach is not what's needed after the initial azivas hachet, however regular, daily work is necessary to maintain your madrega, and this work is like a building.  Once brick on top of the other, so that each and every brick (all steps taken previously, each achieved through making the right decision when challenged anew) becomes integral to the whole building and the last brick cannot stand if there are cracks in the foundation.  Since Ykv doesn't like meshalim without a clearly stated nimshal (I agree, don't assume we'll draw the proper conclusions!), what I'm trying to say is that we need to acknowledge our past every day and recognize that as long as we're on this world the Y"H is there, trying to ensnare us and we must therefore be on guard.  This does not mean that we become depressed and disheartened because we have not overcome him, on the contrary, it's because we have  faced him and been victorious that we better understand the nature of our enemy and what we need to do to keep moving higher.

Yakov, you are a very holy Jew and I never cease to be amazed at your sincerity, honesty and determination, and how you have learned from the past and internalized so well how dangerous and insidious the addiction is.




When someone is drowning, it won't help to stand there and explain to them how to swim, and how we need to be more careful before we enter water, etc... There's only one thing to do, and that is to throw him a life-saver and get him on shore. An addict is someone who is drowning, EVEN if he has managed to stay clean for many months. As we explained in Principle #1 in the Attitude book, once the addiction has advanced to a certain stage, with most people (not with you though for some reason): "once an addict, always an addict". Which means that when we are faced with lust or even fantasies, we are once again drowning and feel powerless. And in such a state, we have to use a "life-saver", which is learning to completely rely on Hashem and let HIM take care of the Yetzer Hara, and let HIM worry about our hearts, and if we are truly sincere or not, and if we are purified or not, etc... We just hold on to him for dear life.

Now I agree though, that for someone who already feels in control when faced with lust or fantasies, and I believe that describes you - Yakov, that the Rabbeinu Yona is an excellent source and tool for true and sincere Teshuvah, rebuilding our life, etc... Like you yourself wrote "Once a person is free, he needs to begin to grow from his aveiros.  He needs to have charata and vidui.  This builds a person and brings him close to hashem."

But since we are talking on this forum to addicts who are not yet free - at least in most cases, I feel it is best to avoid words like "Ashrei Adam Mefached Tamid", Charata and Vidui, etc... Although these things can't hurt and are indeed a Mitzva, they are not the "life saver".

And as you are one of our greatest sources of Chizuk on this forum Yakov, I wanted to explain to you, Tzadik, that we need to teach people simply how to hold on to the life-saver. We have a disease, and we need to take the treatment that works. If we have a flu, we don't go to Rabbeinu Yona. We go to the doctor, even if he isn't religious. There are tools, and B"H they are "spiritual tools", that really work. These tools and concepts are so basic, that they are common to all religions. They are what makes us Human beings with a soul. And we need to learn how to use these basic tools very well, before we tell people about fear, worry, Charata, vidui, etc... (See number 10 of the attitude booklet, where we discuss that Yiras Shamayim is alone not going to be enough, but it can PUSH us to learn the proper tools that really WORK).

And that's why I find the experience of people like Dov so precious. They have learned to use these "treatments" in such a deep and profound way. And today I plan on bringing the third part of Dov's post in the Chizuk e-mail, where he discusses this exact issue that we are discussing now. Should we be "scared rabbits" before the yetzer Hara? And if we are, does it help? And is that what Hashem wants? .... Stay tuned.

I truly value your spiritual power Yakov. But I honestly think that you are on a level one step higher than most of us here. Please don't see that as anything but a compliment :D

Guard,
I actually did begin reading the handbooks.  They are very well written and I hope to work through them slowly. They contain important lessons and I should not do it one shot.  This is like doing chazara on all the yesodos I learned on GYE. Thank you.

The truth is that I had already read the paragraph you quoted.  I was actually a bit disturbed with this paragraph. I was debating whether to contact you about it.  Apparently, you do not understand what teshuva is.  Teshuvah is not an approach or a method of removing oneself from addiction or form sin for that matter.  It is how to come close to Hashem and react when one resolves to remove himself.  It is true that the actual methods of fighting one's yetzer hara are not so readily available in the words of chazal. The cheshbon Hanefesh already makes this observation.  That is why people need therapists, 12 steps, GYE and the likes. Once a person is free, he needs to begin to grow from his aveiros.  He needs to have charata and vidui.  This builds a person and brings him close to hashem. 

Of course Rabeinu Yona was talking to people with diseases.  All sinners have diseases.  And like I said, many of his words apply more to addicts than someone else.  In fact, it was hard for me to relate to Rabeinu Yona until I realized that I was an addict.  You see the Rabeinu Yona's 20 principles builds upon redoing life.  This is very similar to 12 steps.  Most people who casually sin do not feel that their aveiros are any major impediment to their avodas Hashem.  Not so for us.  We all see this addiction as our number one enemy that blocks us from hashem.  Many people on this site describe their yearning to come close to hashem and they just cannot do it.  They need to be healed. 

Why would an addict have less of a responsibility of coming close to hashem and doing teshuvah.  Is there a source for this?

Now, Guard please explain.  Do you disagree with the Rabeinu Yona?  Should a post-addict feel safe, as rashkebehag asked originally?

I end by reminding everyone here that I learned the hard way. I went six months clean from sin.  No urges.  And I felt safe.  Nothing will happen to me.  Yom Kippur came coming close to my six months streak and I told hashem, "no more".  The second I took my eye of the ball, I was a goner.  Two weeks later I fell deep.  And it wasn't until I find GYE, three months later that I was able to pick myself back up.  So I am talking from experience.  The Rabeinu Yona was talking to me.    Never feel safe.  And there is not need to feel embarrassed of our pasts:  I am proud to be an addict. And I accept it with faith.

I wish you would have time Yakov, to read the handbook. But as you didn't seem to have time yet, I will quote:

We may have tried to do Teshuvah many times in the past, but the standard model of Teshuva (Azivas Hachet, Charata and Kabbala al Haba) doesn’t work for us very well anymore. Addiction is a type of disease, and our Sages understood the nature of addiction as Rebbe Asi said: “The Yetzer Harah in the beginning is compared to a strand of a spider web, and in the end like a rope that is used to tie cattle”. Even more so, in this area where our Sages have said: “The more it is fed, the hungrier it gets”. Our Sages also recognized that once a person repeats a particular sin a number of times “it becomes to him as if it is permitted”. Therefore, the standard Teshuvah techniques are not usually sufficient in our case anymore. The nature of the addiction is analogous to someone standing on the railroad tracks while he watches the train bearing down on him, and yet he can’t move himself out of the way. And as Rabbi Twerski puts it in his book “Addictive Thinking”: We place our hands on the stove, get burned, and yet we feel compelled to do it again.

Therefore on GYE, instead of the standard Teshuvah model, we begin to change our entire attitude. We learn the tools and techniques of how to sidestep the Lust, instead of trying to fight it head on. And we learn how to give our disease over to Hashem and live with His help, instead of trying to use our own strengths to fight something so much stronger than us. With the proper guidance, we start to see a genuine change in ourselves that we never believed was possible.

Rabbeinu Yona was not talking to people with a disease. And you, Yakov, although you once were an addict, there is something different about your experience. As you said yourself many times, Hashem seems to have done a real miracle for you and saved you completely from lust. I have seen this phenomenon with another two people on this forum, both of whom had ADHD. It may be connected. But in normal cases of "addiction", we need to take a different approach than the standard Teshuvah model.

As far as your question if our brain gets rewired. The more distance we put between us and the addiction, the easier it gets. There was one recent scientific study that showed that 90 days can change an addictive thinking pattern.
Please read tool #8 of the handbook, as well as Principle #1 in the Attitude book.

People, please I'm begging you. Read the handbooks. I spent a full month on them, I was up many nights without sleep to finish them. Please read them. They are the foundation.

But not only that, I need your feedback! Help us perfect them. We are laying the foundations here for Klal Yisrael in this area, until Moshiach's time!

Dear London -
Reading your first post above, it seems you may have answered your own request. You wrote that you feel very low. You then describe these feelings as related to being bent on self-destruction.
Well, you are right, it IS self-destruction to down and low. In my experience and that of others, then main goal of the twelve steps and recovery is to allow you and me, addicts, to live comfortably with themselves, w/Hashem, and with other people and w/whatever happens to them - even w/slipping. What you do with your life after that is up to you. That's when the fun really starts!
If your relocation or whatever is around it was/is stressful, well that is normal but so what? "Stressful" is unacceptable to addicts. You may need to learn how to find comfort in your new location, your new sobriety date, and whatever else is going on around you. Of course, recovering enough to gain the sanity to find comfort is almost impossible to do if you are continuously acting out - but it doesn't sound like you are doing that. Your illness is still giving you enough space and time to get a foothold. BH! Your odds are better than average based on your past sobriety. This time, though, it'll have to be different and you'll have to find out exactly how. A bit of an adventure, no? Better that the sick lust adventure I could give in to right now if I did'nt have anything to be sober for. Yeah, sobriety is a daily adventure, reality isn't as really as boring as the lu$t industry would have us believe. Hashem has helped bigger losers that you and me get sober and sane, that's for sure!
Then, you'll find some joy in being sober and enthusiasm to continue. You'll have something to be sober FOR, b'ezras Hashem. Hope it was helpful - Dov

guardureyes wrote on 10 May 2009 18:31:


Guard, I love you a lot, but Rabeinu Yona is not conveying an approach, he is conveying a truth.  I read today's email and I did not understand what you are referring to.  Why would daaga not be appropriate for us.  On the contrary; a person who was addicted for 15+ years (that's me), to think he is free from sin and can go back to life normally must be an utter fool.  And I stated above, I was foolish.  I thought that I am free forever.  And I failed.  The life of a baal teshuva is not the same life of a non baal teshuvah.  Let me present a parable.  If a person is a reckless driver and then ends up in a car accident, don't you think he will drive his car with extra care going forward?  He realizes the potential of danger inherent in his actions and he therefore takes proper precaution.  He now has confidence as he drives his car, but still drives with a careful eye.

As I stated above, a person needs to be ready to absorb this.  Step by step.  And to concentrate on too many item at once will lead to downfall.  I have lots of patience in my growth.  But to run away from it, is missing the boat of teshuvah and life completely.  

And I do not think that Rav Nachman disagrees with this.  I doubt he will disagree with Dovid Hamelech.  Rav Nachman was a very deep thinker, and to quote him too loosely can often be dangerous.  For instance, he is well known for his other statement about the terrible sin of sadness, especially when it comes to sin.  Does Rav Nachman deny the concept of charata?  Of course not. If you look the Rav Nachman inside you will see he is discussing a very fundamental issue of teshuvah.  He points out that there is a tightrope syndrome when it comes to charata.  On one hand one NEEDS to regret; and on the other hand he must make sure not to get depressed.  He gives advice on how to do this.  The same goes for daaga.  Daaga is a tricky thing.  And daaga is the root of creating Gedarim.  On one hand one must realize the potential danger inherent in his actions as has been proven from his own past actions; and on the hand he must have confidence that he will not fail.  Just look at the man on the tightrope at the top of the page.  Realizing that he can easily fall, makes him walk much more carefully.  You think he walks on the rope the same way he walks on the street.  If he did that, he will fall.  That is daaga.  

As I stated, many people have a hard time swallowing this.  But Rabeinu Yona calls this foolish to not have it.  He also writes that a person is sure to fail by not having it.  So why would we want to ignore the words of our Rabbis without any proof that things have changed?  Guard, I am curious.  Do you honestly disagree with this?  Do you think that a "cured" addict can feel free from sin forever? Do you believe that is what Hashem wants from us?   If I am not mistaken, the whole backbone of 12 steps is the realization that we our always addicts.  

rashkebehag,
I am terribly sorry for bringing this into your thread.  My main point was just to bring out that we should never feel cured from this, as I brought from our Holy Rabbis.  I also mentiond that it does get easier after 90 days.  But, actual rewiring the brain, and destroying the neuron connections in the barin that are associated with pleasure may take years to undo, depending on the severity of the addiction.  There are people who attend 12 steps for many years after being "cured".  Regarding the actual avodah of daaga, I agree with Guard that at the elementary levels a person should focus solely on azivah, as I stated above.  But this goes far beyond just refraining from sin.  This means removing the mind from sin. As you stated so beautifully above, bringing ourselves to the madreiga of not wanting to sin.  12 steps helps a person focus on this.  

Dear Yaakov, the Rabbeinu Yona's approach is for normal people. But, as you will see in today's e-mail (#474), "daagah" is the opposite of the way it works best for most true addicts :-) As you yourself say, Azivas Hachet - breaking the vicious cycle - that is the only concern at first. And even later, Daaga may not be appropriate for us... (notice I say "for us").

See also #13 and #20 in the "Attitude Handbook".

Dear rashkebehag.

I am so thrilled that you are starting your third week that is really terriffic.When I was in my first 2 weeks I monitored myself hourly. When I started the 3rd week I kept track on greater intervals. To be perfectly honest my goal was to come into Pesach without falling.40 days was not even on my horizon I actually hand drew a chart which only had 30 on it. I felt that if I were to make a goal that was too much I would never keep it.

I would like to say there are a few things that I can attribute my success so far Bli Ayin Horah. (Some of this might be repetitive from other posts, sorry)

A.I was able to break free.

That I attribute to all that I read and internalized here on the forum and on the site. I realized I'm an addict I realized I was in a self-destructive situation. I realized that other people who sound so normal and rational had the same problem and are dealing with it successfully.

B.I was able to stay clean.
This part is the hardest part because that is where all the work is. Staying clean is a struggle I feel the part that makes it doable is that we are able to post one another in real time. Plus this forum replaced   my addiction not that I have any confidence to say I trust myself, but I do feel that by being constantly in touch with people who recognize my problems can help me deal in a positive way.

C. Momentum
There is a real vibrancy here you can feel the excitement and energy .The wall of honor is a great motivator. The fact that you have to monitor yourself  and you see the results up on the board is terrific way to keep up the good work.

D .Communication
What I was suffering from as an addict is that I thought I was the only lonely person on this planet who is struggling with shemiras einayim .The fact that I can communicate with other people who are open and honest who are dealing with the same issues gives me the proper frame of mind to stay focused on that goal.

E. Love
What many people have to deal with is differentiating between love and lust. Lust is the wild spontaneous sensation of self gratification. Love is the opposite. On this site we are taught to control the addiction of lusting remove its veneer and search what you really are looking for which is love.

F. Hope
On this site everyone is given a second chance. This is the optimization of HABAA LITAHER MISAYYIN OISO.

Finally to answer your original question I don’t know where 90 days came from but it is an excellent motivator.
Humble and happy
Bardichev

p.s. this post was checked by spell-check

rashkebehag wrote on 10 May 2009 16:54:

After 90 days the battle becomes much easier, as your brain begins to get rewired.  But, in truth, it may take years to fully rewire your brain.  In short, a person should never feel safe.  Chazal say, as you know, never believe in yourself until the day of your death.  The Rabeinu Yona points out in the fifth medreiga of teshuvah, daaga, how crucial it is for a baal teshuvah to never feel safe from sin.  He explains that we should always feel worried that the potential of repeat aveira  is possible.  He concludes by writing the that he who feels assured after repenting, has a greater chance to return to sin.  Perhaps at a later time I will elaborate on his beautiful words and explain them in greater detail.  But it is all explicit. Take a look.  

As for me, I went six month completely clean without any urges and then fell.  I attribute that fall to lots of things.  One of the greatest causes of my fall was this Rabeinu Yona.  I did not fully internalize the midah of daaga that makes a person always conscious of his own past.

I know this is hard to swallow for some people, but this is the truth from our Rabbis.  But, great concern should be taken to first work on the the earlier steps of teshuvah before even thinking of this yet.  And the first step for an addict is just simply azivas hachet, which goes far beyond than simply not doing aveiros.  

May your search for perfection and teshuvah see no bounds!

Be Holy, we want to hear from you. Did SA call you back?

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...