Dov, you must mean the 12 steps, but I am not a heavy addict and will not join a group. is it possible to learn the steps without a support group? The Handbook seems to agree that not everyone must join a group. So what should I do? Is reading the 12 steps enough?

Dear Rashkebehag - Yes,and it is the steps. if you have done them, then use them. Working them is to learn tools, not for a one-time experience. Also, it seems obvious from the fact that nothing about drinking is mentioned in 2-12, that the purpose of the steps is not to get me sober but to keep me sober. I believe, as do many who I know, that the lusting/drinking/gambling/whatevering is a symptom of a problem, not the main problem. This means that if you have enough stress in life, you, if you are an addict, will use your drug. Plain and simple. Are you using 4 through 11 to maintain comfort with your life and those around you? If not, an addict is very, very likely to eventually act out, no matter how great a tzaddik you are. This is what being an addict, not a rasha, means to me. What set me apart and helped me see/accept my illness for what it was, was the realization that no matter how hard I try, or how good I get, I will eventually act out. Guaranteed. At that point it becomes possible (for one who does not wish to give up and lose everything and/or die) to find Hashem, finally. Really find Him, not just know He is there. Use Him like we use everythimg else, to survive.That has been my first hand honest experience, no crystal ball or judgementalism, I promise. If too heavy, please forgive.

OK :A pure heart create for me, O L-rd, and a proper spirit renew within me." Lev tahor broh li Elohim,v'ruach nachon chadesh b'kirbi".
I want to bring uo a new area of discussion. i find that the addiction is very prone for those under stress. Its an escape. I am  under stress in many areas of my life, I had thoughts that maybe the stress is a punishment for my bad habit, but now that i am genuinely keeping away the stressfull situation is not letting up, only getting worse. Any suggestions or comments anyone?

rashkebehag/London,

I completely relate to the challenge of identifying a slip or fall that is not as black and white as the rules for the WOH.  If a look or a thought for a lust addict is equivalent to a drink for an alcoholic, it's tougher to stay sober than for any other addiction (food, alcohol and drugs all require an act - a fleeting thought does not threaten sobriety).  But when you think about it, it's exactly the same struggle, just more subtle.  All the techniques, tips and chizuk that work to keep yourself from violating the rule for the WOH can be used to keep your thoughts clean too.  A couple that I've been working on applying lately:

1) If I see something on the street or find my mind wandering in the wrong direction, don't despair!  Don't get down, get UP!  It's an opportunity to rise to the challenge - this is what you were waiting for!

2) If you're successful in following step 1, you've done it!  Give yourself a big pat on the back and re-affirm your connection to Hashem.  I have a hard time saying "I did it for you Hashem!" because I didn't do it, He did, but the point is, it should generate a positive feeling, not a negative one.

I find that progress here is very slow but it's there nonetheless.

Dear rashkebehag

Thank you for your honesty.  In the 12 step fellowships, the foundation is built on being regoursly honest - as they say in SA "To thine own self be true", one of my biggest downfalls that preceeded my relapse after 3 years of sobriety was what we call technical sobriety.  Sex / Porn addiction is worse then most other addictions, for me to get drunk on alcohol / drugs I have to physically swallow them, but with porn & lust I could be sitting next to you in shul with my siddur open in front of me and completley drunk with lust as the images that I have seen online are burned in my memory almost as clearly as they are on the screen.  And the only way I am going to get recovery is to set up clear and defined boundries that if I break them i start counting again. Being clean and sober is far more than a date its very nice to be able to say I am technically clean for x days but how is the quality of that time.

Well done for being so honest with yourself and the rest of us here, you must not let this get you down but put it down to experiance.  I will just share that today I was working alone and had terrible cravings to surf for porn.  Hashem in his mercy at that point gave me a choice, I could have surfed, or I could have tried fighting the YH, or I could call some one and share my struggle and "surrender" which is what I did and as I was on the phone I actually felt the craving leave me.I have been told in therapy and fellowships that I have to break the cycle and do something different whcih is what I did today.  This is truly a one day at a time battle and I am so happy that BH I found this site where I can share and be inspired by other yidden on this path

Kol Tuv
London

I believe that when we use our addiction in the way Yakov described, as an impetus for growth, and when we learn how to give Hashem our hearts through this struggle, and through the very falls we had, we learn how to make better fences, and we learned the nature of the Yetzer hara and how to avoid him, and we learned how to help others who struggle as well, through our own past falls, then I believe that we are uplifting our past sins into zechuyos in a very real way. Chazal say the torah cannot be miskayem unless one was nichshal bo techilah. If we use the nichshal bo as the very "kiyum" of our Torah today, then the nichshal bo is uplifted too!

And that's the beauty of the fire that Yakov described...

3 weeks!

Thanks for the tips guard, I read most of the handbook on the way to Meron.

Meron was very wonderful, yet extremely dangerous for us addicts. On the way up I found the mehadrin path, but on the way down I suddenly found myself in the midst of a mixed crowd with lots of attractive women! Just what I was trying to avoid.

I initially panicked not knowing what to do.  I thought about guards glasses , but not appropriate for a crowd scene. I tried to say  Mishnah and Chassisus by heart, but was all mixed up and could not concentrate. So I just keep walking very fast keeping my eyes looking over everyone's head and not allowing then to rest on any women. I made it and did not allow the bad thoughts to materialize, but it was a close call.

Now I have accepted the fact that I am an addict, I must make every effort not to take the first drink, (look). The fire to sin cannot burn within you unless the ruch stuss enters first.

Here is an example of not accepting myself for what I am. Over twenty years ago I when to an AA meeting in NY. I had a friend who was an alcoholic and wanted me to experience an AA meeting. I even read some of the literature he gave me.

Amazingly, I never considered the meeting had anything to do with me.

Yet as I now realize the meeting had everything to do with me!!!

Ykv, your reflection really reached me. You are pure EMES. If you don't mind, I would like to take advantage of this and ask you to further elabolate on this that tou wrote:

Where I used to view my addiction as an impediment for growth, I realize it can serve to be an impetus for growth. 

But through that force can come construction and growth.  

There is no doubt whatsoever that Hashem has accepted our Teshuva and that the aveiras stemming from our addictions are being erased. The question is how do we make up for the things done in the past and for the things we failed to accomplish? How do we go in converting our aveiros into zchuyos?

YY

Dov I agree with both points
Hashem wants us to grow FROM our Aveiros .ANI HASHEM HA-MAALEH ESCHEM.

I agree you can’t get wacky but one has to remember where he was nichshol in the past.
A lot of my addiction especially the internet part was triggered by two things boredom and curiosity or curiosity and boredom.
When I was bored or disinterested in whatever I was doing I went online it was almost always random searches YouTube Google images and then it almost always ended up being very nichshol.So for me right now it is no internet whatsoever except this site and strictly business related. I really do not Trust myself.

Once I was able to get some handle on the internet stuff I really feel good about myself so now when I'm in the street I feel SHTARK
to be able to control the other part of my addiction.

Meaning to say as follows Y"H is the biggest con artist out there he knows how to hit the ball from both sides of the plate(sorry a little baseball lingo  here)First he gets you to sin then when you are up against the next nisayon he becomes very EHRLICH sic. and he says you two faced hypocrite you just finished feasting your eyes on ***n now you are going to ACT Frum you faker .

My good friends and my dear chaver rashkebehag there is a concept of miktzas hayom kikulo.There is a concept of SHNEI SHAVUOS BASHANA NIKRA SHANA two weeks in the year is considered a year. Which as it so happens to be the Heilige Bnei Yissaschor brings down on LAG BAOMER.

When I was at two weeks I was extremely proud of myself and you should be proud of yourself too. You have a HASAGA how much SUR MIERA you did in this time. My TIERE CHAVER you are a SULDAT!!! A soldier in battle as the say in Hebrew YALLA!
Move on and keep on fighting no time to think about how it happened just FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT Y”h can’t stand you .You will beat him to a pulp you went this time you WILL do it again.

AMAR REB AKIVA LIFNIE MI ATEM MITIHARIM UMI MITAHER ESSCHE M?
AVICHEM SHEBASHAMAYM!!!

H&h
bardichev

I think this thread contains many of the basic issues that are common to all of us, including the causes and the solutions that apply to everyone, whether they have a “light addiction”, a “mental disease”, or something in between.  In fact I think it should be required reading on GUE.  No logging in until you click “I have read the victory post today”    rashkebehag, you have a knack for hitting on all the key questions!

There is one point that I found woven throughout many of the posts that I can relate to 100% and would like to highlight because it’s so powerful.  Clearly, as frum Jews on this website, we never wanted to sin.  Yet we were drawn to it anyway, despite our convictions.  Why?  The answer that emerges from many of us who are B”H on the road to recovery is twofold.  First, the causes are usually emotional, having to do with how we were treated or mistreated or neglected by others, usually when we unable to object or assert ourselves for various reasons, and lust was a way to escape and medicate and not really an choice we actively made.  So why didn’t learning and mussar help?  This is the second yesod – it didn’t help because we didn’t relate to it properly.  It takes work for anyone to internalize true emunah and it’s that much harder if we need to overcome emotional obstacles first.  So although it may seem like we’re backtracking, what we really need to do is start at the beginning.  In fact we’re not backtracking – in truth, we never even got started!  If you were fortunate enough to learn in Yeshiva and have developed the basic skills necessary to learn the original texts, ashrecha, these will stand you in good stead.  But that’s it!  I hesitate to say it but forget the rest!  Start from scratch.  Develop a true relationship to Hashem based on YOU.  This cannot happen until you’re in tune with yourself – in Dov’s words, make sure these principles “are real and not separated from the lev any more”.  That separation is a disconnect between your actions (including acting out) and your emotions.  Once they’ve become one, you can begin true growth.

Here are some quotes from the thread that support this view:

Dov




Ykv used the same mashal of a car.

Me

Barditchev and Yakov Yosef, thank you for these beautiful and inspiring posts! Both of them would make great Chizuk e-mails!

I have a feeling deep down, that you two holy souls are somehow connected. You both came onto the forum together, and you're both ATOM BOMBS.

P.S. To Barditchev, believe it or not the one who runs GYE and the forum never was in an SA group himself. But being that Rabbi Twerski suggests this as the best step for a real addict, and being that I have learned so many amazing secrets from people in SA and the 12-Steps about how to beat this struggle, and seeing before my own eyes on the forum how the most hopeless addicts succeed through SA over time in miraculous ways, it is only natural that so much emphasis is put onto understanding the magic of this program... (Read Tools 14 and 15 in the handbook). In any event, thank you for your warm words!

Ok, sorry everybody for the misunderstanding. But as Chazal say, Ain Hatorah Miskayem Ela Bemi Shenichshal Ba Techilah. By misunderstanding, we got into a whole discussion and we were able to clarify this important Yesod. And we clarified that that there are two types of daaga. There is the daaga that we must always have, even from the very first moment I believe, and that is a daaga of recognizing we are in mortal danger and if we don't take the proper steps we will be finished. This daaga is the core of step 1, admitting powerlessness and that our lives are unmanageable, and it remains with us for life, especially in cases of a "real addict" who knows he is finished if he doesn't keep doing what he HAS TO DO. And then there is another type of Daaga, which can be used as a practical tool for some people to staying clean. And this type of Daaga, I believe we all agree, is NOT appropriate for a real addict to use.

I don't recall what you said, Yakov, that made me think you were talking about the second type of Daaga. I don't have time to go back and look through the old posts, maybe I read them wrong. In any case, we never look backwards, only forwards. That's another tool we all need to use  :D

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To Dov,

Thank you again, for yet another beautiful, deep and powerful post, taken from your hard-earned experience. Not only is your experience precious to you, but it is even MORE precious to us, to save us all from making the same mistakes. I was indeed hoping you would join this discussion and help us clarify. And just for your post alone, the whole discussion was worth it. (I can make another 3 Chizuk e-mails out of this amazing post!!)

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To Rashkebahag,

Your question is the ENTIRE reason I spent the last month working day and night on the GYE handbook. That is what the handbook's purpose is.... To quote the introduction:

The purpose of this handbook

When a newcomer first comes to our websites and forum, they can easily be overwhelmed and feel lost. They will see many tips and advice, ranging from the most simple and basic ideas, and on through more drastic steps, such as therapy, 12-Step groups and even medication. It is often hard for the newcomer to pinpoint exactly how “addicted” they really are, and what kind of steps are the most appropriate for them to try at the stage of addiction they may be at. For example, obviously a beginner is not going to jump straight into psycho therapy or join a live 12-Step group, in the same way we don’t try to treat the common flu with chemotherapy.

And that is the goal of this handbook. We have attempted to put together a guide of the practical tools that we, in the GuardYourEyes community, have found useful. And we have attempted to present them in a progressive order that goes more-or-less from the most basic and fundamental tools, and on through the more intense and life-changing recommendations.

It is our hope that with this step-by-step tool guide, every person who struggles with lust addiction, no matter how mild or severe their addiction may be, will find guidelines that can help them. All we need to do, is to start from the beginning and begin to check off the steps/tools that we have - or have not yet - tried. Should we find that we are not successful to break free even after we apply the initial advice of this handbook, we will be able to find ever more powerful and addiction-oriented solutions, to ensure that we will be able to achieve a complete eventual recovery.

So dear Rashkebahag, please read it through, from the intro and down though the steps... until you think you've found the tools that will work best for your level of addiction.

I


Ouch... I am so sorry Tiere brider I feel so bad I hope I was not too sharp.
For me it was the most refreshing thing to finally say I am an addict .I have to honest I don't know if I can get up in front of a room and say Hi I am bardichev the addict.

When i finally looked at MYSELF as an addict I stopped making all the silly excuses to view ***n .I stopped feeding my addiction. I stopped acting like a yo-yo on the self destructing sin-teshuva-sin-teshuva-sin cycle. I said I am an addict now work on becoming un-addicted.

Keep up the good work I am B"H 53 days clean ONLY BECAUSE OF GUE!!!
h&h
bardichev

I didnt expect the question about the 90 days would lead to such  a discussion but now i want to ask something else. The maxim once and addict always an addict seems to be widely accepted and is probably true. I know that cigarettes works that way. You can be off it for years and one weak moment and your back. And Dov just answered what I also asked if Mussar helps. It doesn't for and addict. The question I am asking is if there are levels in addiction and should be dealt with differently and what is the basic approach. I opened up this discussion that i see myself as lightly addicted, berdichev attacked me and insisted I admit that I am an addict. OK, I accept that even though it hurts, but are there levels or it makes no difference? In other words, how does one know if he has to join a 12 step program which entails a lot. Right now I am relying on this forum to keep me strong and it seems to be working. I have no pull, I successfully avoid looking at women in the street. and sitting in front of a computer doesn't get me turned on to anything. But maybe later i will have trouble. can anyone offer any suggestions?

B"H, another Yid that internalized the principles of daaga properly. You admit that you are always an addict, that are not really "safe", that there is potential mortal danger on the other side of the curtain.  You therefore trust in Hashem to protect you and you act with care.  If you believed there is nothing to be concerned about there would be no reason to cling to hashem for help in this area the same way many of us do not cling to hashem to protect us from non-kosher food.  But due to your internalizing if daaga, you act the way you do.  And this is precious indeed.  Wonderful  This is precisely how Rabeinu Yona defines daaga.  And in fact, I used the exact the same mashal of the car driver above.  If you read my posts, I do not think you will find much of a difference. 

But, as I stated on the first post, I intentionally did not explain what daaga is, as I felt strongly a person in his first few weeks of azivas hachet should not focus on this.  He should focus on removing his mind from lust as much as possible, as he beseeches hashem in a very real way.  I was just trying to state a fact that a person is never really safe and should always realize the potential mortal danger.  And this has now been confirmed by aaron, jack and dov and I believe SA.