It's interesting that Perfectnose brought up addiction to Torah (I haven't seen it elsewhere on the site).  I was just talking about this to my Rav last week.  He deals with addiction experts in the course of helping people (sign of the times) and one expert said that after many years in the field, he can identify an addictive personality.  However sometimes this can be manifested as addiction to Torah!  I had a hard time digesting this.  Although we all know that Hashem gives us character traits that can be used for good or bad (don't become a murderer C"V, become a shochet and use it for good, etc) it can't be that simple to do in practice or we'd be discussing ways to "infect" others with our wonderful addiction to Torah rather than discussing how to eradicate a disease.  Obviously the threshhold for expressing personality traits in a negative way is much lower, much easier, than expressing them in a positive way.  But the point is there nonetheless - it can be done and we're uniquely suited to it!  So let's make it happen!  All we have to do is take the first step today...

Ineedhelp

I feel your pain and sadness at your fall.  I have found in my experiance that on my own recovery is impossible, the addiction thrives on isolation, and even though this forum is amazing it is no replacement for a 12 step program, have you considered  joining one?  Since I joined I have nerver felt alone, I have lists of numbers on my cell of people that I can call 24/7 in emergency, and people call me sharing their struggles.  The meetings are a place where I can see people face 2 face who are sober and their lives have changed dramaticly.

Even though I am going through a difficult time I know that it is possible to get recovery, however I have to be willing to put my recovery before everything in my life, as this illness has no boudries and when I am in the heat of the addiction nothing is sacred.  I therefore have to teach my YH that recovery is the most important thing in my life without exception.
As is said at the end of every 12 step meeting "it works if you work it"

Hang in there my friend.

London

Poshut

I relate to how you are feeling.  For the past few months I have never managed to put together more than 2 weeks at the most. You wrote that you fought the YH for 31 days, recently I have changed tactics I cannot fight the YH he is far too strong for me.  Every time I get the craving to surf I call a member of my fellowship and tell him of my struggles this really helps, I also daven to Hashem and say "Hashem take this garbage out of my head, I do not want this, it is too powerfull for me, please keep me sober". I have found that the tools of making phone calls and simple tefillah really help.

I also have to constantly remind myself that I am a sick person, and I am trying to get better, my YH wants me to think that I am a bad person trying to do good, this only feeds the self loathing and keeps me in the cycle of addiction.  My recovery is only one day at a time and today I want to stay clean and sober no matter what!!

Thank you for sharing you have given me a chizuk, in helping me fight my own battles.

London

Dear Perfectnose, please read the handbook. We are not dealing with an addiction to internet or to any particular behavior or another. The common denominator is an addiction to "Lust". And for us, lust is poison.

Dear Jew, you have come to the right place. Your therapist is clueless. He is not trained in addictions and so he does not understand at all the nature of addictions. Please, I beg you, download The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

Hashem has been waiting all these years for you to find us. Read through the handbook and your life will begin anew from today.

Welcome home.

how does someone define internet addiction. Porn in the long run is a destructive behavior so any type of dependence is road to all types of problems., but the internet has such good on it. I was researching recently how to teach my son how to swim and there are websites that teach you to how to teach your kids to swim (no more $60 an hour lessons), Lehavdil, I saw somewhere on this forum that gedolim are addicted to torah. so remain with a question what is internet addiction and how distructive can it be?

I can only talk from my experience and sometimes addiction to porn is caused by other issues like depression, low self esteem ect. Then you get into a vicious cycle. I know that in my teenage years I would have done anything to get helped, and I am surprised that your son knows that you know about his issues and he still tries to evade you. This makes me think that there is other issues involved.
then again this can be in the category of fools talk.

B"H

Chassid,

You have managed to hit my problem spot on. I too struggle to not get tied up in all this information. I have tried to set myself a 15 min rule for reading not Torah things on the internet but it lately hasn't been so successful. Maybe we can update each other about or travails similar to the general updates on this website.

Sincerely,
Ezra

Hi everyone,

I found this site last night believe it or not on JPost.com. They had an article about this website, and while at some points in the article it seemed sarcastic or skeptic (or probably they found another way religious jews are human) I was nodding my head thinking "I better check this site out."

I was exposed to a lot of porn also from a very young age (around 11 or 12), mostly through a neighbors and friends stash. While I was attracted to the stories and pictures I had no idea what to do with it until I went to a Mesifta out of town and a second bachur my age (no molestation going on) showed me how to mutually masturbate. I still remember that he told me to tell him when I was going to be done and I had no idea when to say when because it was all new to me. This went out for around two years until I went to a different Yeshiva. The guilt I felt during that time was indescribable. Probably worse than any guilt I have felt in subsequent years. I felt I was doing mishkav zachur and doing something that the torah clearly states as chayav meesah. I did not know that Mishkav zachar meens full intercourse with another man, but then again which rebbe explains that to a 14 year old class. The guilt mainly stuck around with me because I was taught that you do not know if your teshuva is ever sincere unless you are tested with the same test. B"H when I was around 17 this bachur and I were roommates again, and one day when we both were looking at magazines he asked me to join him and I refused during the height of heat. I then felt vindicated and an indescribable joy.  But I digress

I was so into porn and so full of shtus that when I was 14 I tried to get my sister my age involved. BH I did not and I did not do anything too stupid. After seeing a therapist I understand now that both of these incidents are in goyishe terms "completely normal" during early teenage years. The internet was still five years away.

Because I had not access to magazines or erotica I would do the next best thing. I would go to libraries or used book stores and read the sex scenes in the romance novels. I became an expert skimmer and could find a sex scene as if it was the first page in the book. That was until I was eighteen. I stilll remember the first magazine I bought. The lotok of the asian woman behind the counter and the rush to the closest public bathroom.

During this time I was masturbating probably a few times a day to four or five times a week.  Obviously as a number of authors here the guilt and self hatred for such an extended time can only cause a low self esteem and distrust of ones qualities and resolves. How can the son of a ruv stoop so low.  I definitely had depression while I was in my teeenage years early signs of what was to be.

There was one year in Yeshiva when I was 19 that I clearly remember try as hard as I can too stop. I would study day and night, be as vigilant as I can  but to no avail. I think after that year I decided to accept it (with guilt but I was not going to kick myself) until I got married and maybe with a wife I would be able to kick the habit. As other posters know this is another foolish idea. For a couple years until my marriage I fell into pretty deep depressions and when I asked help from one rosh yeshiva he told me at my age I should be strong enough to deal with my own issues. Obviously porn was a three to four time a week incident. I chatted but I was ever one to really to be good at that type of stuff. I guess it was ironically too fake.

BH I was able to get out of my depression long enough to be a prospect for decent shidduchim. I got married and I was convinced my masturbating and porn days are over. Imagine my luck when my wife was diagnosed with a condition that did not allow us to have relations for a whole year after marriage. Looking back I probably was not able to have yichud with her because we never even consummated out marriage even once. During that year I had to deal with wifes emotions and had to act like this is not a bid deal and we will get through this and BH we did. However, this obviously did not help my porn addiction and it got worse and worse until my wife caught me about two weeks before she was due with out first child. (By the way when we were dating I did tell my wife about my porn past but she did not think too much of it thinking it was a single guys problem and other reasons)

Like a lot of posters the relief is euphoric. The sense that you are on the road to recovery is strong but short lived. After my wife had the baby I fell into the deepest depression of my life, one that stopped me from working and I basically stayed in bed all day. Since my wife is such a aishes chayil about seven months into the depression she got my parents involved and I got help. However the therapist who was Jewish with a very good neshama felt that masturbation and porn was normal that my wife would just have to accept as long as it is not in too much excess. In her words "I have been around the block and for men to look at porn and masturbate is completely normal." That I am using it to self medicate for my depression (to feel something in that black void)

While she might be right with an average joe, an orthdox jew has higher standards. My wife knows I occasionally (once to three times a week depending on my moods and feeling) look at porn and gets upset about it here and there. She understands the yetzer harah and how hard it is to shake. Maybe one solace to her is that I do not usually look at pictures but read erotica so she is not competing against a picture(I always found that the exploitation of woman in the porn industry a general turn off and how it is so fake)

Getting to the present, I still battle depression which affect my Parnasah and other aspects of my life. I still wonder how my porn and masturbation is tied to this depression. My therapist seems to feel my depression has to be treated but not the porn but I do not feel this way which brings me to this post. Sorry for the long bore but I feel I need help and this is the place for it. Any ideas where I move from here? I am thirtyish with a small family and a need for peace.

My Dear  Chasid

I am not sure of your intentions in posing the question, but just want to say some of my experiance in Porn v Torah.  I am not a talmid chochom of any sort and cannot quote any Gemoros & Rishomnim etc.

Let's assume hypothetically speaking that viewing nude unmarried non jewish women was muter min HaTorah, I would still not do it.  The early people of AA realised that they were allergic to alcohol and as soon as they had even the smallest amounts of alcohol in their system all hell would break loose, and try as they might they could not drink like a gentleman, even though most of mankind could.  The same for me applies with my lust triggers (which include nude unmarried non jewish women), even if most men can handle the smallest amount of lust in and lust like a gentleman, I cannot as I am allergic to lust.  Therefore even if the Torah permitted certain types of porn I could not view it as the consequences within me are devastating.  Because I am an addict if I take the first drink and look at unmarried non-jewish women, they then become objects of my lust, and this will then lead me to objectify jewish women, whcih is ossur.  Further when I take the first drink there is no telling where I will end up, masturbation is certain.  So as I stated I am not well versed in the Seforim but I know for me looking at any type of trigger for me is distructive.

Perhaps looking at non jewish unmarried women can come under the Possuk of Venishmartem Meod Lenafshosachem - You shall guard your health, both spritual and physical,  when act out the feelings of shame guilt, self loathing depression always occur - Just a thought.

London

I think Hashem gave you this addiction just so you should find our site. Now that you did, you can break free of the other addiction as well :-)

See Tool #2 of the The GuardYourEyes Handbookfor ideas on how you can break this addiction using vows in a very safe and effective way.

Hi Tzadik,

Your warm words truly touched me. We can never know why Hashem takes us through the troubles and turmoil that he does. We each have a path to take in life, and I truly believe that your finding our community is a big part of this path..

I'm sure you heard about the big "LAUNCH" of the two GuardYourEyes handbooks just last week... They aren't just "another" feature of our network, but rather, they lay down the cornerstone and foundation of our work hopefully for years to come, and they make our network much more effective and helpful for people.

You see, until now, people would often get "lost" when coming to our website, not knowing what tips and techniques to try. For example, a beginner wouldn't jump straight into therapy or 12-Step groups, while on the other hand, someone whose addiction was more advanced wouldn't be helped by the standard tips of "making fences" putting in "filters" etc... So it was essential to develop a handbook which details all the techniques and tools to dealing with this addiction in progressive order. Now with these handbooks, anyone can read through and see what steps they've tried already, and if those steps haven't worked, they can continue on through the handbook where the steps become progressively more powerful and "addiction-oriented".

And the second handbook, called the "Attitude" handbook, can also help anyone, no matter what level of addiction they may have. Often people write in to us saying that had they only known the proper outlook & attitude that we try and share on the GuardYourEyes network when they were younger, they would have never fallen into an addiction in the first place! So we hope that through this handbook, many addictions will be prevented.

The handbooks are PDF files, set up as eBooks, and they have bookmarks and hyper-links in the Index, to make them easy to navigate.

Make sure to read them, they contain a wealth of information on beating this addiction! And I'd love to hear your feedback on them...

Note: You might want to print them out to read away from the computer. Keep in mind though, that if you do this, you won't be able to click on the many web links in the articles. But you can always come back to them later. The truth is, it's anyway good to go through the whole handbook once without clicking on links, just to get an overview of all the tools available. Once you did that, you can start again from tool #1 and read each tool through more carefully, click the links and study each technique and assess whether you have tried it fully yet or not...

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

Hello Everyone.

I thought some people would like to talk about other internet addictions. Not everyone has an addiction to pornography. They could always have addiction to others things that effect their health and spiritual well being.

When I was a young bloke, I had an addiction to participating in debates on the internet. At first I would put the time limit at 10pm. That would pass as the discussion was deemed more important than a good night's sleep. Before I knew it, it was 6am. I'd rush to bed, hoping to get 2 hours of sleep. Sometimes this would work, sometimes not, as in, I would be found sleeping till the late hours of the morning. This eventually led to a very bad habit that lasted 3-4 years.

Currently this addiction has been revisiting me the past few weeks in a new fashion. I feel the need to read every single newspaper article you can imagine after night seder. It is ruining my sleep. It is ruining my morning seder. I have been threaten to be thrown out of the yeshiva but it is not helping. The only reason I can think I am facing this issue right now is because of my late night habit in my younger years. I have almost no interest in the topic discussed in the newspaper. However, when I start reading that interview in between Tony Blair or Avigdor Lieberman and JPost, I can't get to sleep till I finish it. I have no interest in it. I do not discuss these topics with anyone. The secular topics I normally discuss would be about technology or work. I am going to get married soon and need a way of making sure this habit doesn't effect anyone long or short term. I do not want to be kicked out of yeshiva over it. I do not want to be put to shame in front of my future family that I was kicked out of yeshiva. But I am going crazy these past few weeks over going to sleep in between the hours of 1am - 4am. Shabbat is completely normal for me, normal patterns.

I remember my first year in yeshiva. I was asleep every night by 10:30pm and one of the first boys in synagogue constantly. For this reason I am going crazy over this habit that started revisiting me a few weeks ago. I do not know what to do.

BTW, I found this website by reading about it in the newspaper.

Maybe you should determine what his problem is. Sexual? Enjoys arousal? Lust? Needs physical pleasure? Or is it really an addiction to pornography?

From what you say it sounds like it may be the last one. You can only tackle pornography if the problem is pornography. Not if it is a product of something else.

Dear Chasid - welcome to our community!

A non-religious man once told the Brisker Rav that he doesn't believe in G-d because he has many questions. The Brisker Rav told him, "you don't have questions, you have answers". So my friend, if this question you ask is really an "answer" to why you aren't working on yourself, then I don't know if I can help you. However, I believe that the fact you are asking us this question is because you genuinely want to stop these behaviors. You just feel you need to understand more how dangerous and sinful it is, so that you can convince the Yetzer Hara to leave you alone.

There's no question that any Posek you will ask will tell you that it is prohibited. I would like you to realize that your question is really the "addiction" speaking, and that this is one of the tricks of the addiction. Rabbi Twerski, founder of an Alcoholic Rehabilitation Center, compared such claims to me once on the phone, to an addict who says "I was just trying beer, I wasn't drinking whiskey"...

As far as the prohibitions are concerned, anyone who is frum and has learned any Torah, should be aware of the severity of these sins. The Torah says "Thou shall not go astray after your hearts and after your eyes which lead you astray,". This applies to any image that arouses one's sexual inclination, and erotic images of any type are definitely forbidden. The Rabbis state that anyone who purposefully arouses his sexual organ is to be banished (Niddah 13A). The Gemara there even goes as far to say "Better one's stomach should burst than he should touch the area of his bris (and possibly bring himself to an erection)". And another Gemara says "better to walk behind a lion than to walk behind a woman". And another Gemara: "whoever brings himself to an erection is destroying the world". This is not Mussar or Chassidus, this is regular Gemara. Chaza"l were fire about this! The Medrash says that anyone who is not careful with gazing at women will come to sin with them in the end.

Viewing porn is also included in the prohibition of "Lo Sikrevu Legalos Erva, Ani Hashem Elokeichem" - "Do not come close to revealing nakedness, for I am Hashem your G-d". There is no other Mitzva in the Torah where such terminology is used. Even with idol worship, the Torah doesn't say not to come close! Only with sexual matters, the Torah exhorts us to stay far away from it.  It is also interesting to note that the Torah uses the words "do not come close to reveal nakedness" and not "to sexual relations". This implies that "revealing nakedness" (i.e. even looking) is, on some level, as if one had already done the act.

This little test can be your meter - if an image triggers a sexual twitch, a stronger heartbeat, sweaty palms, or even a silent, "Wow!" then you are polluting your soul, damaging your "Da'at," the ability to know G-d, and cutting yourself off from the Divine Presence, the Shechinah. The eyes are the windows to the soul and they are the vessels to receive the light of the Shechina. One who has damaged these vessels will not be able to bask in the glory of the Shechinah in this world, nor in the next.

So with all these sources, how can a frum person even ask such a question? The answer to this is also in the Torah. "Ki Hashochad Ya'aver ainai Chachamim... etc..." .. "For bribes make wise men blind, and twist the words of Tzadikim". The Yetzer Hara, who offers us bribes of false and fleeting pleasures, blinds us to the obvious truths and makes us think we have real "questions". But he is just disguising them as questions. Don't be fooled, and realize that these are not questions but really his "answers"! (R' Elchanan Wasserman used this very Pasuk in an essay he wrote, to explain how the multitudes of non-Jewish wise men and scientists from around the world, fail to see the obvious and glaring hand of Hashem in all of creation).

Besides all this, viewing porn turns all women into objects of lust. This is the very opposite of what relations in a Jewish marriage are meant to be. The "lust" aspect of sexual desire was created by G-d to cause a man to seek out a woman and take her for himself. Once a couple is married, the "lust" aspect of sex should be relegated to the side and should no longer be a dominant aspect of the relationship between the two. They have dedicated themselves to each other, and when they are together, they should be cultivating an emotional bond through the sharing and sensuality of intercourse. Sex is a "sacred moment" of closeness between the two of them. This is also perhaps why Chaza"l prohibited having relations by day. Firstly, because one may see something about his wife's body that may turn him off, and on the other side of the coin, by seeing his wife's body he is fueling his lust instead of focusing on the true sacredness of the moment.

A man who insists to make "lust" the most dominant aspect of his relations, is losing out on the true connection and closeness that martial relations should cultivate, and ultimately his marriage is likely to fall apart. As his wife has children and her body changes, and/or as she gets older, he will loose interest in her and he will never be able to lead a normal marriage life. A relationship built on "lust" quickly fades away. Also, by fueling the lust through his relations and not focusing on building the emotional bond with his wife, he will continue to be pulled after the other women he sees on the street, and will transgress all the time the Issur D'eoraysah of "Lo Sachmod". Lust is truly a poison, and the nature of lust is that "the more you feed it, the more you need it". One can never get enough of lust. In the end, either we win it over or it wins us over.

Just one last thought. Even with a strong resolve, one should never trust themselves in these areas and should get a strong Internet filter for their computer to help them through moments of weakness. And never stop davening to Hashem to save you and your offspring from what is perhaps this generation's biggest test!

Please download these handbooks that will change your life!

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

May Hashem be with you.