Welcome Chaim. From your first succinct post, I can already see we are dealing with someone special. A ba'al Machshava. A great warrior. We embrace you with love. Welcome to Hashem's special corner. I don't know if there's anywhere else Hashem enjoys as much in the world, as looking down at what's going on in this forum.

To REALLY get you going on your journey, please download the GYE handbooks (links below). They lay down the foundation of our work here on GuardYourEyes. I can sense that you won't just be here to "take". From your first post, you are already giving great advice and Chizuk. So please take the time to read through the handbooks carefully. Not only will it change YOUR life, but for a guy as smart as you, it will make you an invaluable asset to our site, and you will be able to help so many others as well!

As today is day #3, let me know if you want to go up on the 90-day chart over here. See the rules over here.

Welcome Home!

Right click on the links below and select "Save Link/Target As" to download the handbooks to your computer.

1) The GuardYourEyes Handbook
This Handbook details 18 suggested tools and techniques, in progressive order, beginning with the most basic and fundamental approaches to dealing with this addiction, and continuing down through increasingly earnest and powerful methods. For the first time, we can gauge our level of addiction and find the appropriate tools for our particular situation. And no matter what level our addiction may have advanced to, we will be able to find the right tools to break free in this handbook!

2) The GuardYourEyes Attitude
The Attitude Handbook details 30 basic principles to help us maintain the proper attitude and perspective on this struggle. Here are some examples: Understanding what we are up against, what it is that Hashem wants from us, how we can use this struggle for tremendous growth, how we can deal with bad thoughts, discovering how to redirect the power of our souls, understanding that every little bit counts, learning how to bounce back up after a fall, and so on and so forth...

Thank you Guard!

I am happily starting week three and just realized that BE"H 90 days will hit in the middle of Elul. I know it's a bit early for me to think about it and I am tryng to go one day at a time, but I could not help but feel some anticipation to do some real Teshuva this year. I could never really do Teshuva on any Aveiros (even those unrelated to lust) when I felt that I was not truly willing to return to Hashem (ie leave my addiction) I see in the process of working the steps an overall Hiskarvus to Hashem that goes way beyond the scope of Lust or any other individual problem.
May we be Zoche to reach higher and higher in our quest for Kirvas Elokim.

The author of the book "The first day of the rest of my life" just opened a sexual addiction center in Israel.

Israel Sexual Addiction Treatment Center
RABBI SHRAGA SCHLACHTER
Tel: 052-692-3065
E-mail: shragaschlachter@gmail.com

GYE, thank you for your very kind words. However, I may be talking the talk, but until I walk the walk, I don't deserve such honors. You see, I've not had more than a 24 clean day streak, and I've now done 4 clean days.

To respond to your suggestions:

-When I get to tool #14, I'll get to it. 

-Your first SA link was to join an online SA group (known as a DSR), which I've actually already done. I found that going through the GYE handbooks and posting daily works much better for me than the DSR (please take this as a compliment). The second link is to join a U.K. phone conference. I'll consider this.

-You wrote "See also how Miribn explains it beautifully in her thread." I browsed through her posts, and she really is an inspiration. Anyway, I think I found the post of hers that deals with step #3 of the 12 steps. Here it is:

"One wonderful thing I learned from the 12 steps is to stop fighting.  To just realize that I have no power over my addiction and that I am powerless, to realize that Hashem is the only one who can relieve my addiction and that if I just let Hashem take it away from me and to daily beg Hashem to relieve me of this obsession then Hashem will!  And Hashem truly does!  I no longer fight, I just completely rely on Hashem that Hashem will keep me abstinent!
I think that I have a natural tendency to want to control my life and other people lives and I also want to control the outcome of things.  I like to plan out my day, week, month, year, life etc.  I also have a perfectionist type of personality and an all or nothing.  This has caused me to turn to my addictions when things did not go my way.  I was always a fighter and many times I fought with all my might for things to go a certain way.  Learning to break this habit and realizing that I am trying to play G-d was a true eye opener.  For me, I needed to learn to stop fighting and letting Hashem run the world the way He see's fit.  I learned to accept.  To accept myself and accept others.  I learned to accept my life and life circumstances.  I am learning and relearning this every single day.  But I know that because I let Hashem run my life now, this is why Hashem has granted me all these wonderful days of abstinence!"

Interestingly enough, I am also a perfectionist and have very "yekkie" personality.

I'd be honored to read whatever Dov or anyone else has to say about this or anything else we've spoken about.

Now, I've got to get back to work....

First I want to say a big thank you everyone who's replied (hoping, aaron4, Ineedhelp, battleworn, of course GYE). Reading your responses, even a one liner "your posts give me chizuk" gives ME a tremendous amount of chizuk, and fuels me to carry on with the battle.

I mentioned in the past that Sunday is my hardest day. I almost always fall on Sunday. I guess it's the motsei Shabbat thing, and the fact I am at the beginning of a new work week (in Israel we work Sunday through Thursday) at a job I am very bored with. I know Motsei Shabbat is a big time to fall for a lot of us. As a result, I practically stopped turning on my home computer on Motsei Shabbat. It's not worth the test.

Today's report (it's a bit long, but I felt the need to review some of the major concepts that we hashed out last week):
Tool #1: Attitude
I read today's chizuk email and responses to my posts on Thursday.

I remind myself the first step of the 12 steps ("We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable"): I am addicted to lust and it overtakes my life if I don't try to control it, and that I can't control it all by myself.

Set 2 of the 12 steps ("Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"): I believe in G-d who will help me with my battle. I also have a circle of friends here on this forum who are helping me.

Step 3 of the 12 steps ("Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God"): I will not do the battle myself, rather, I give the lust up to G-d instead. I never (and still) don't understand how this works. I think while this approach helps a lot of people, for now, I have to take a different approach that might help me, one that I mentioned on Thursday. That is, I have to stop lustful emotions as soon as they start, and ask myself, is what I want to do going to give me pleasure or happiness. Pleasure is fleeting while happiness is eternal. I have to remind myself that I must WANT to let myself go of the lust, even though it gives me a temporary feeling of escape from my mundane life and from my loneliness, because of the following:

Pleasure is fleeting and cuts me off from the world and doesn’t let me feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem, doesn't bind me to the goodness in the world, makes me lose appreciation for my wife and children and be unable to find inner peace.  I remain closed up within a shell.

Happiness is ever-lasting reconnects me to the world, makes me feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem, see the goodness in the world, helps me gain appreciation my wife and children, and find inner peace.

I read from the GYE Attitude handbook numbers #11 and #12, and they go together beautifully and stresses the point I just made in the previous paragraph. It says in #11 "Just once is always too much. A thousand times is never enough". In #12, entitled "True fulfillment vs. false fulfillment", when talking about lust "...when the pleasure is over we don't have any fulfillment ... and that's also why we want it again not long afterwards, even though we just had it."

Tool #2: Guard my eyes
Guarding my eyes in the office, on the street. Using the "heker" of my fiters to guard my eyes on the internet. When I feel weak, I'll try to read from the GYE handbook instead of trying to bypass my filters.

Tool#3: Fences
I think it's time to investigate the next tool (#3). A couple of weeks ago I made a blee neder that after I fall I'll donate 200 shekel to tsdaka. I did this twice, then stopped. I found that this didn't help me, since when I was in the throws of passion, I didn't think about the money, just the fleeting pleasure I'm about to get.

A much better tool for me is to make a fence BEFORE I fall. I was thinking, and here's something that's worked for me. I tend to fall (act out) in the bathroom. I justify it by saying that I have to go anyway to relieve myself, so I can't help but go, yet, I know I'll do more there than just relieve myself. So, what I've done a couple of times, and I'll try to do more (blee neder), if I get that feeling to act out, I'll simply hold it in and NOT go to the bathroom. I'll wait 10 minutes, and by then, the lust will have passes, so when I go to the bathroom, I'm simply going to do what needs to be done there (relieve the waste).

Another fence, which actually is a halacha, is to say to myself that when I'm in bed or the bathroom, I won't touch myself there. This is hard to do, but a very good fence, for obvious reasons.

Tool #4: Daily Chizuk
I read today's daily chizuk email.

I'll go even one more - that if Hashem causes a baby to born with with some sort of deficiency, and we ALL are born with SOMETHING missing - only G-d is perfect, but i mean something that makes the child less in some way than someone else. For example, with crossed eyes, or poor motor function - these can make the person feel bad about himself without anyone else doing anything to him. This low self esteem can lead to addictions also. Any low self-esteem is no good. But, again, it is up to the parents (or primary care-givers) to handle this in the right way, and help this child understand, and not feel bad. I've seen a child in a wheel chair who is very happy - the parents must have worked very hard. Can you imagine if the parents would have felt bad that their child was like that, and not able to help the child overcome feelings of being less than everybody else? Or if the parents yelled at their cross-eyed child every time he knocked over a glass on the table? What would this have done to the child's self esteem? And the child, feeling bad, would have to fill that void - to make up for the low feelings. And what would he fill it with? I'll give you one guess.
And what about the friends? Youngsters can be mean - and hurtful. So there are a lot of ways to fill the void and take away - remove - those feelings of sadness. Like drugs, alcohol, porn, food. Unfortunately, mitzvos and learning are not the things that can remove these types of feelings of sadness. What happens when we grow up without the proper feelings of self esteem? We need all the anonymous meetings - and for the first time a person can feel that they are in a safe environment, and begin to recover. And we are OBLIGATED to seek treatment, for us and all our loved ones, and for Hashem also. Because He wants us to be happy.

Hey Bardichev,

I haev an important question for you that I think many people also have but dont realize it. What exactly is thing we call "LUST"? We say thats what we are addicted to but i cant admit that unlessI know what it means. To me its just a word that has bad connotations with sexual and impure feelings? Please elaborate Bardichev or anyone else that feels they can answer it.

Thanks
-INH

guardureyes wrote on 12 Jun 2009 06:18:

Beautiful!  Well said!  I think that sums it up.  This is how I approached my recovery and especially 12 steps.  For me when I started, I started real simple, focusing on basics only.  I did not overwhelm myself with lots of ideas.  I focused on a few basic elements that I felt were required for recovery.  Anyone who wants can, read the written part of my recovery  here and here and here and here and here. And the truth is that even today (it is only 120+ days; big deal), I still remain very focused on small issues that can make a huge difference in my life.

After thinking through this sugya I have gained greater clarity regarding the issue at hand.  I think we all agree that our goals are kedusha,yiras shamyim,torah etc.  We all agree that unless we are really applying kedusha we are not really recovered, as R' Twerski stated. But we realize that the means to that goal can be anything that will enable that goal as long as it is halachicaly permissible.  Being that 12 steps is permissible (psak from R' Twerski) and proven effective, we all agree that 12 steps is a prime choice for the means to the ends.  Perhaps the above debate was not a debate as much as a confusion what everyone was saying.  bardichev viewed dov's words as if he is describing the actual goal.  So bardichev spoke up that we cannot forget the Torah; that is our goal.  And Dov was perhaps thinking that bardichev was explaining the method, technique, and means to achieve that goal and so he felt to disagree based on personal experience explaining that Torah did not WORK for him as a MEANS to achieve his goals.

There is no greater simcha than the simcha from clarity!

So, let us remember the holy words of our mentor R' Twerski:
"The only thing that can be effective against immoral temptations is kedusha; no if, ands, or buts.  There is NO other way".

And let us all try to michazek ourselves in inyanei kedusha, by taking some small steps by ensuring we are at least abiding by halacha properly.  As the Rambam's son writes a person cannot expect to have siyata d'shmaya in their temptations unless they are abiding by halacha.  If one is B"H abiding by the halachos in inyanei kedusha already, perhaps there is some small chumrah one can take.  On the day of Guard's baby boy's bris, as a present to guard I took upon myself one chumrah in inyanei kedusha. I referred to it in his thread back then.  I have kept it up till today and B"H it has brought much hatzlacha to me. 


On my thread (click here) one can read an interesting "debate" boruch and I had as to how to apply avodas hashem to this addiction.  Boruch, our 12 steps expert, describes how the 12 steps encouraged him to use Torah properly for recovery.  This has always been his major theme; that through the 12 steps he was once again able to SEE the torah that he always knew.  Boruch was a BIG fan of actually running to the B"M in time of nisayon.  I explained to him that I too have been successful in applying those words, but this is not so practical to most people,  which I also quoted from the cheshobon hanefesh on.  Either way, I think anyone who is looking how to apply avodas hashem to his recovery will find gems in that debate as each one of us brought out very fundamental points that I think should be relevant to many people here. Enjoy!

It may interest some of the readers to know that Boruch has developed an innovative approach to using the 12 steps effectively in a Jewish setting. He himself has begun working on this with people face to face.  He built his own source material from the 12 steps.  I urge anyone who is interested for serious recovery using 12 steps guided by a real talmid chacham to contact him at boruchshemo@gmail.com .  You are not only helping yourselves but all of klal yisroel.  When he sees people are interested, it will encourage him to refine his approach to such a degree that it will help ALL YIDDEN.  From the day he arrived on the scene, he always dreamed of this.  We should be mechazik him to actualize the dream that he has, because that dream was his message from Hashem.

Hi echai!
Yup, it's a long one...
I love the way berdichever stated it and actually agree that the 12 step derech is a bidieved! It feels nice to agree w/someone you love.
BUT (there is always a "but") this is true only in a strictly objective sense. Sort of like: is the Taryag mitzvos as we have them bidieved? Of course they are! As the mekubalim explain, the only mitzvah per se, to remeby nahama dekisufah, was that of eitz hada'as. Since the failure of Adam to choose rightly, that mitzvah is expanded to 613 for Kiyum on a lower level, to eventually reach the higher, more objectively natural level. (The second Luchos, the mostly tevadigeh nature of Yehoshua's conquest, and other things - like the shevirah itself - are also framed this way by some baalei machshova.)  I believe the RMCHL,ShaLoH and Nefesh Hachayim agree with this, but please correct me if I am wrong (again).
This means the following:
I do not accept that I have fallen off the wagon and am lost from the derech hashem for me.  (BTW, I actually used to feel that I was lost from Hashem's plan for me after leaving yeshiva in eretz yisroel in 1982! That was a terrible and devastating period for me, but that is another story...)
My "level-3 or whatever" addiction and the ensuing 12 steps seem to be, in retrospect, the only way I could have "found Hashem and myself". Yes, perhaps if I had learned more Torah/mesiras nefesh I may have been zocheh to accomplish the same thing w/o them, but this is not the way Hashem did it for me! I did try, and lost. I choose to believe this was my destiny. It may not be yours, so what? What my experience has taught me is that I and many others learned Torah rather well while they were addicts. I gave a mishnah shiur in mishna for kiruv while in the very worst part of my addiction sometimes even acting out the very same night. Some people, like me, would either learn and soon afterward shock themselves at how fast and far they could fall; or first fall deeply and very soon afterward feel a religious high. Nu, was that a gift? I do not know. Sadly, the high gave me a nechomah for my acting out and in the long run allowed me to save face enough to continue my stupid struggle. A man proudly standing against a tsunami wave. Idiot. But I did not know any better and really thought I was supposed to struggle and be patient. Patient as my relationship with my wife deteriorated under the weight of my mounting secrets; Patient as I became melumad in my twisted brand of "avodas Hashem" that was all about a new kind of "veHachayos Ratzo Vashov": looking at porn, lying, chasing lust, more lying, hiding and acting out, and then come (really) screaming and crying to Hashem, "Take me back!" Ach and Vei. Not exactly what the malochim are doing around the Merkavah, is it? So: no. Learning as an active addict did not seem to be Maigin for me in addiction. If anything, it made it worse at that time.
I do not accept that most people are addicts. I do not accept that Dovid hamelech was shayich in a personal way to, nor struggled with addiction, though he surely new of it like he knew of every other tzorah, l"a. I do not think that normal people are really made for the 12 steps as presented in the AA literature. It's actual implementation ("working them - not reading them) usually seems to be unnessesarily heavy for them. Nonetheless, Rav Twersky seems to operate along those very lines, using the 12 steps for everyone. That does not make sense to me, but - who am I? (AA: "We are not experts - on anything").
My wish is for everybody to be free of addiction and have all the fruits of the program w/o needing the steps. But it sure is nice for me to finally have a shaychus to: really living (at least a bit) for Hashem, (some) freedom from fear, emunah that really works, usefulness to people(often), a close (and growing) relationship with my Eternal and True Friend, and let's not forget good old Sanity! I needed the bidieved derech for it and - as I was - could not get it from Torah. Theoretically, maybe it's nebach for me. I choose not to accept that, though. Maybe others can afford to. But to them, instead of arguing, I'd respectfully say like the Baal Hatanya wrote: You don't win a battle with a dirge, but with lively marching music you go ahead to victory! So it is a good thing many of us just accept the facts as they are on the ground, hold our heads high, and grow using this derech as though our very lives depend on it. It may. At that point, it is certainly better than just lechatchila, it is certainly the precious and holy derech Hashem for us!

For R' Yaakov S. -  I rarely feel I am fighting. When I do have a temptation in lust, I choose not to look at it as a YH issue. I view it like a "little tentacle" of the beast of my addiction. It had total relentless control of my life and seemed to be a sure bet for keeping it! Now, B"H, it's "body" is locked in a "dungeon" guarded by Hashem till He decides to "recycle" it, bimheira beyamieinu. In the meantime, it's tentacles are dangerous, having a connection to the same beast (much like neshikah from a bohr to a mikvah) and can destroy me totally, though they now appear to be weak and thin. Just a "thin string", if you will. But bitter. I use the same tools in the same way as I always did, from the very beginning. It's just faster ususally, and not as big a deal as it used to be. (occasionally, like the last day or two, it has been scary. Nu, what do you expect from an addict? B'H it's getting better, and your support is appreciated)! So I talk about it like it is the beast itself, even though I may be able to have confidence and self-assuredness to beat it or start a new derech, who knows? It might work for a long time, but seems silly for me to try. Along the way, some people think because of the way I share and frame/describe my challenges that I am still listening to or watching or running after shmutz or acting out just like before! I know I need to face it the same way as Dov-the-newbie, or I'll trip, get stuck, fool myself, act out, and eventually - die. (I once sat through a long verbal thrashing about selfishness because I shared that I believed in some way I was still selfish and disrespectful to my wife. Whew. The guy had 2 years of sobriety and I had five but kept me mouth shut tight, even afterward. Who knows, maybe it was good for me or him!)  Better to be a (safe) fool in peoples eyes for a few minutes than to Hashem (permanently). I do owe you the explanation, though.

Hoping some of this megillah was helpful,
Dov

I have no evidence I will ever be cured. I do not know if what they say: "Once an addict, always an addict", is true. I just choose to apply it to myself for lack of a reason not to. I assume I'll be going to meetings till I die, which is good because it seems I am more pleasant to live with when I have meetings in my life. I get to help addicts, too, jusr by being there. If I somehow become certain that I am cured, I may not go to meetings any more and hope to let you and others know. If you think you are cured, gezunterheit and I assume you are right until proven otherwise. It is not clear to me exactly what the litmus test would be, though. One acting out? A pattern? Arrest? Feekling cruddy?

My goal in life is to be a pure and total eved Hashem. I know this deep in my heart. Most of the 12 steps are truly Derech Eretz Kodmah LaTorah, like the 2000 years Tohu, as far as I am concerned. The 11th is about moving on from the steps and starting your life as a Yid (in my case), it seems, no? Is the 3rd step Shma? yes, in retrospect. I could not and would not have "gotten it" from that had you taught it to me that way. I had been saying sh'ma all those years in addiction and yet: He still wasn't truly in charge enough, wasn't on my side enough, and wasn't able to help me enough, as far as I was concerned, to really trust Him. It was all too complicated in my experience of Yiddishkeit. I had to hear and learn all that in a different way, get off the 18-wheeler (or airplane, helicopter, blender, whatever!) and get on a nice, quiet bicycle with training wheels. That's the 12 steps. Simple, focused, and real. Now, certainly Torah is the ikkar and hopefully a frum recovering addict will be able to maintain enough sanity to make Torah the ikkar and grow in it. Nu, I have met some who can't yet. Let's daven for them to have what we have, too. 

I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to read everyone's replies above - I've been super busy, but I just want to write the following to Barditchev,

Heiliger Barditchev,

I agree with you that the Torah we learn, even while addicted, are part of the zechusim that we accumulate for Hashem to help us to ultimately find the right tools to break free. And I also agree with you that once we are stable, or even in the process, we need Torah - and our goal should be to get back to Torah, which is our life. However, the forum is a place where people discuss healing from this addiction. Almost everyone on the forum tried Torah for years, you included, and it wasn't a tool on its own to help them break free. We can talk about all types of things on the forum, Chesed, Avodah, Torah, but the main focus on the forum needs to be what TOOLS we can use to break free. Torah doesn't function as a tool in this regard, only for those who did not reach levels of addiction yet. Maybe in previous generations they still knew how to use Torah to understand how to break free of such things, but we are too small today to do this on our own... So if you want to discuss Torah on the forum, it is important to make it clear that it isn't a tool on its own in cases of addiction. None of the 18 tools of the handbook talk about "learning more" (although #6 includes this idea a bit).

Dov and I don't disagree with you, but we want to keep the focus on how to break free. Otherwise, we'll end up with people trying to learn more and more, and become frumer and frumer, but crying under their desk just the same :-)

Thank you for understanding.

I must say this thread is getting so exciting.  What did rashkebehag do to deserve the most exciting thread?  :D

Honestly, it is getting hard to follow what each person is coming to argue with the next, as often happens on these threads. And I am not sure that bardichev's point was fully understood.  So, bardichev correct of I am making wrong assertions in your statements, but I am just trying to create clarity. 

I think we need to understand what bardichev was coming to address.  He was commenting on a particular post dov sent out earlier stating how learning maamarei chazal are pointless.  bardichev was explaining in his usual language how that is not true. 

In his second post he explained how the 12 steps are not holy.  Only the Torah is Holy.  What he meant by that is 12 steps are just techniques, but it would be ludicrous to submit ourselves to every diyuk in the 12 steps (which even the experts cannot agree what some of these things mean) over the enlightenment of the Torah.  The Torah is our life.  The Torah is the world.  To separate our lives from Torah would be committing suicide.  This is not a matter of opinion.  This is not about "what works for me". This is about understanding the world from an objective standpoint. 

The main issue he was addressing is that we are not only justified but rather healthy jews by wanting to understand maamarei chazal through our addiction.  How beautiful. 

Now I think the larger picture is this.  Every person needs to define his goals and understand what he wants out of recovery.  I do not think a goy can understand kedusha.  This is a commandment for Jews.  For Jews that have sunken into p**n and related sins, the essence of the yid has been tampered.  My goal is to become a yid.  How in the world can a goy teach you to become a yid?  My goal is kedusha to the top.  If I do not strive for it, I will not get there.  I will plateau out and fall, c"v.  I need to understand my obligation as a yid.  I need to understand what G-d wants from us as he expressed through his Torah, not based on "well of course g-d would say...".  My Goal is kedusha.  My goal is coming closer and closer to hashem.  I have read 12 steps over and over, and I do know them.  But they in no way describe the relationship with G-d that you will find in Rabeinu Yona. So there is great limitations.   

Now I am not denying you can gain a lot from 12 steps.  I have used the 12 steps myself to get myself out of my slump and I am forever grateful. I think it is a wonderful system.  I have only spoken highly about it, and continue to support it.  I would suggest it to almost anyone.  I even found lots of wisdom in them.  However, to those familiar to the Torah, there is not much great chiddushiim (except for the parts that are not really true.)  But my goal was not to live by 12 steps.  If there was an idea that I did not agree, so move on.  No harm.  12 steps was a very helpful framework where I used it as a springboard for traditional Jewish thought.  But CHAS V'SHALOM should I replace it with TORAH. 

I think it is a terrible mistake to quote R' Twerski in this context.  He has written in some of his letters how the bottom line is to increase yiras shamayim.  The 12 steps helps a person get focused again.  But yiras shamayim is the goal.  There is even the famous letter he wrote to a p**n addict to learn mesillas yesharim to heal himself from his addiction.  Apparently, R' Twerski understands that a Jew needs to keep his goals in focus and can in fact get healed from sifrei mussar (which even I think is extreme).

There is a well known concept from Rav Yisroel salanter that when the gemara says to bring the yetzer hara into the beis medresh, it means to learn all about the yetzer hara you are dealing with.  I think that is what we are doing here when we dwell on a gemara.  This in fact gives a person Siyata D'Shmaya.  Like Battlewron wrote the other day, even if you do not see the impact of your tefillos and torah it is there.  I am convinced that I have been saved through my Torah.  I am not going to elaborate on the amazing journey of my recovery, but I can say it was miraculous. 

It could be we all misunderstood Dov and so it is beneficial that we spoke this out for clarity. 

But I should explain something further and perhaps this is what Dov was addressing.  A person has to know how far his addiction has taken him. For myself and others it was a very bad aveira that I have done for 15 years of life as I lived an otherwise happy life.  What brought me guilt and sadness was that I could not live life like a Jew.  My life was under control.  But there are people that have fallen so deep.  Their desires were so strong.  Their whole lives are upside down.  Almost in jail.  They have hit level 3 addicts.  This is scary.  facing divorces.  Theses people would gain very little encouragement from maamarei chazal. Their hearts are so closed and they are truly subhuman.  My impression is that Dov's addiction has brought him down to level 3. Dov, correct me if I am wrong.  And the truth is that is why his story is so inspiring.  a person who fell so low, and even after 11 years continues tio have MAJOR struggles, is yet continuing to fight and never give up.  He managed to remain sober throughout all those hard years of difficult nisyonos. That is amazing.  This gives great hope to many people who are no where near Dov was.    And for such a person this is pikuach nefesh. This may not have to do with an aveira anymore.  These kind of people (not DOv, I know he learns torah) probably do not learn Torah on a regular basis and probably cannot feel any type of spirituality of emotional feeling. 

But, Dov, if after 11 years you still feel the need to attend 12 steps you continue to have major impulses could it be you need to move on to something else or do you believe you have an internal defect that cannot be cured?  Do not answer if you do not want to. But I know you are honest and open.

Dovid Hamelech tells us in Tehilim. "טעמו וראו כי טוב ה" It can't really be explained. As soon as you taste what it means to have an intimate relationship with Hashem, the question dissapears. This is one of the aspects of  זדונות נעשין לו כזכויות  because that very dependence and connection that has developed between the addict and the lust as a result of all the falls, is redirected to Hashem through  תשובה מאהבה. And that's one of the reasons why במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדין אין צדיקים גמורים יכולים לעמוד




I'll tell you something interesting. When I was in Yeshiva we were always told that only the first 11 perakim of the Mesilas Yesharim are relevant to us. I learnt through many of those perakim numerous times. But then one time when I was about 27 I learnt through the whole sefer. Even though I was reading about stuff that was way above my level, still reading through the whole thing had a very profound affect on me.

I don't mean to compare; I just think that in this case also there is great benefit reading the whole thing.

Dear heilige's

1- thanks for the chizzuk efshar letaken, etc, - a very close fellow addict in my homegroup told me exactly the same thing last night, "what else do you expect from an addict, but gam zeh yaavor!". It was helpful then and again helpful now, as most good ideas are just that: good ideas. I typically "forget" the "right thinking" quickly and often and need frequent chazorah over the course of the day, week, year, life...

2- Sweet berdichever - thanks for the clarity. We may disagree less or more, idunno, really. As far as your point about the holy monkey thing, I could not agree more. However, here is how I look at it:

The reason I lust/lusted, acted out, etc. is precisely because I am a holy yid! I was looking for what I eventually found in the steps and is waiting for me in the Torah: a true, full, and intimate relationship with Hashem (my Higher Power). As an addict, particular of this variety, I took the easy way out and made lust my god, serving it daily, religiously, and without fail. The 12 steps just helped mesee there really is a way to connect with the real G-d, that's all. BTW, I should really give some credit to acting out, because had I not done enough and gotten into so much trouble, I'd possibly never have been forced to look elsewhere than lust! This is how I understand Rabbeinu Yona's intro to Shaarei Teshuva: Tov veYashar Hashem, Al Kein Yoreh Chato'im Baderech" Hashem is Good and Fair, that's why He Throws (yoreh like by Har sinai: yaroh-yiyareh="shot down") the one making mistakes (choteh/sinner) onto the derech, meaning the derech of teshuvah to Him. The result of the addicts misdirected striving for connection reek havoc and failure (boruch Hashem!) and he is always (eventually) forced to find Hashem, often with loud (not quiet) desperation. Most people do not understand this and see the reaching for Hashem as the opposite of their addiction. Really it is the same reaching for the same motive, just to the Right Place.

MOMO-
I am not that experienced but in response to your concern about what will fill the void, I have had the same concern. The way I approach it is with the following two points:

1) If I first get control of my lust, I can then make the intellectual decision if I want to go back to it. As long as I am in the clutches of my addiction, I can never make an honest decision regarding whether the lust in a good idea.

2) More importantly, the feeling of the need for love is only satisfied for a very breif moment, followed immediately by a longer, more intense void. In the end, I never feel that I have helped myself by lusting.

Hope this helps.

Regarding my question in my first post today, I just read this in teaching #10 of the GYE handbook. The answer to my question MAY be here:

"Also, maintaining our addiction requires constant hiding, lies, and living a double life. This cuts us off from the world around us and doesn’t let us feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem that fills our lives. It blinds us to the goodness in the world around us, to our souls, and to Hashem. We begin to lose appreciation for our own wives and children. We are unable to find inner peace, we can’t stop lusting every where we go, and we remain closed up within a shell that no one can penetrate."

It goes to say that the opposite is true. If we break our addiction, we will reconnect to the world around us, feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem that fills our lives, see the goodness in the world around us, to our souls, and to Hashem. We'll regain appreciation for our own wives and children, find inner peace.

Is this the answer or are there different answers? The key is to push aside the physical fleeting feeling of escape and "love" in order to gain the spiritual feelings of reconnection to Hashem and to the world, and appreciation for our family.