battleworn wrote on 20 Jun 2009 20:22:


Not what Boruch said? I am Boruch, and unsurprisingly I am quite aware of what I wrote originally. It seems that besides not realizing that both posts were mine you missed my original point.

The original question was what can the AA program that cannot be found from mussar and Rabbeim. Addressing that I wrote the following including the part about one alcoholic helping another the way no non-alcoholic could,

It was suggested that someone whose addiction has gotten passed p*** and mast. can't do it without the groups, while someone who's less infected could. I think we have proof here that the first half of that statement is not accurate (I can think of "Mevakesh"). And about the second half, I wonder what Boruch would say.

A while ago someone made a totaly different chiluk. He suggested that if someone is really seriously actively concentrating on it, then he can do it without the groups but otherwize they won't make it. (My personal feeling is that one of the main secrets of success in SA is that it makes you be very proactive [going to therapy is not the same thing at all because it's largely passive])

I would suggest perhaps another chiluk. Maybe it simply depends on what else is available to you (see #3)

Of course it can also depend on your nature, your level of emunah, your connections (for EX: if you have a rov or rebbe that is equipped to deal with it) Your chinuch etc.

If anyone can shed light on this, please post.

A lot of great points were raised in the "Torah and..." thread but I also feel that there's a lot of confusion. You see, I have a very analytical mind and I crave clarity. So I'm sure for a lot of people it's great, but for people like me things really need to be clarified.

Furthermore, I loath debate. When I was a young man I spent more time arguing than most people do in a lifetime. I was quite good at it, so I usually won all the arguments. And it was a HUGE waste of time. Arguing does NOT lead you to the truth. Discussion on the other hand, does. I think that we all want the truth and if we discuss these issues we can help each other get there. I'm not saying we have to agree on everything, but I do think that if we search together with an open mind, we will end up agreeing on almost everything.

I will start, be"H, with a list of things that, it seems to me, need clarification. And then I'll elaborate on each one iy"H. Everyone is welcome to comment, question and/or challenge anything I write, but please no attacking. (And please don't put words in my mouth. If you think I meant to imply something, you can allways ask)

1) In the topic name, does the word "Torah" refer to learning Torah; or does it mean the Torah as a whole, in other words Judaism or Mesorah?

2) "The 12 steps": are we discussing the actual steps; or does it mean joining SA?

3) Those who found that the Torah couldn't help them, was the problem with the Torah in general; or perhaps with what they did or didn't learn?

4) Does this problem depend on the level of addiction; or on other factors?

5) Is SA an alternative for those who the Torah didn't work for them; or is it a Tachbula to get the Torah to work for them?

6) Why do some people feel that they needed to slow down in their Avodas Hashem while others feel the exact opposite?

7) Are there dangers in using Torah that we need to warn people about?

8 ) Are there dangers in using the 12 step groups that we need to warn people about?

9) Are there limitations to the eitzah of Chazal -"Moshchei'hu l'beis Hamidrash"

That's enough for now. If you feel I missed something, please say so.

Dear GMA,
Wow. When I read your post, it really gave me a feeling of deja vu. Just last week I posted the following.

"To be honest, I'm jealous (in a good way) of everyone who is putting together large amounts of days while I'm not. This somehow seems harder for me than everyone else (although, that might not be true). Could it be that my 6 days of battle is equal to 16 days of battle for somebody else? Could it be I'm not trying hard enough?"

'Hoping' responded with the following: ""A fall while on the journey is worth more than a clean day while you aren't trying."
Gma, I want you to repeat the last sentence to yourself NOW!

------------------------------------
I also wrote myself the following words of chizuk:
"Our struggle is like a baseball team (us) playing against (struggling against) another team (the Y"H). Although they try to win every game, that's super rare. The key is for them to win a lot more than the amount of games (battles) that they lose.
A winning streak puts them of fire (and we feel invigorated the more days we remain clean). And sure, if they lose one after a winning streak they get upset, but they don't give up! They have to get up and try again the next game. Although breaking a winning streak is not a goal of any team, and it breaks up the momentum built, it doesn't mean they lost the season (or for us, it doesn't mean that we've lost the war). It's just a small setback.
However, after losing a string of games, they feel demoralized. The difference is that in sports, there are a limited number of games that don't go past one year, so, if they lose too many, they are really out of the playoffs and they end their season. However for us, if we lose too many battles, we have many more years ahead (until our deaths), and we are never out of the game until we die.
As long as we're alive it's never too late to start losing and start winning!" 

------------------------------
GMA, I also suffer from loneliness and depression. This is a very hard fight, but there are good reasons to do it.
I'd like you to read my "10 commandments" that I wrote after reading the GUE handbook and the 12 steps. It might help you. I firmly believe that if we read and follow these commandments every day, we'll beat this thing.

Here they are:

Commandment #1: Fill my day with chizuk
Today I'll read through the GYE handbook when taking breaks at work instead of surfing around. I'll read and responses to other people's posts and to my posts, and get chizuk from them.

Commandment #2: Remind myself of my addiction
I am addicted to lust and it overtakes my life if I don't try to control it, and that I can't control it all by myself.

Commandment #3: Strengthen my belief in Hashem
I believe in Hashem who will help me with my battle. I also have a circle of friends here on this forum who are helping me.

Commandment #4: Make Hashem's will my will
* In matters of anger and control: I believe that Hashem controls the world and it's outcome. Therefore, I will try today not to get angry when something happens against my will. I have a natural tendency to want to control my life, my environment, and other people's lives. I will try to learn to stop fighting and let You, Hashem, run the world the way You see fit. I need to learn to accept myself and others.
* I matters of lust: While I will try today not to give in to any of my desires that are against Hashem's will, however, Hashem, You are only one who can relieve my addiction. Please take it away from me!

Commandment #5: Remind myself why I must remove lust from myself
I have to stop lustful emotions as soon as they start by reminding myself that I WANT to let myself go of the lust, because of the following:
* Pleasure is fleeting, false fulfillment, and cuts me off from the world and doesn’t let me feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem, doesn't bind me to the goodness in the world, makes me lose appreciation for my wife and children and be unable to find inner peace.  I remain closed up within a shell.
* Happiness is ever-lasting, real fulfillment, reconnects me to the world, makes me feel the tremendous kindness of Hashem, see the goodness in the world, helps me gain appreciation my wife and children, and find inner peace.

Commandment #6: Break up the day, be happy
Today I'll be happy. I'll break the day into 3 segments: morning (when I wake up until lunch), afternoon (lunch until I get home), and night (when I get home until I wake up). For every hour, and especially after every segment I stay clean, I will be happy about it.

Commandment #7: Guard my eyes
Today I'll guard my eyes in the office and on the street. I will use my filters to guard my eyes on the internet. When I feel weak, I'll try to read from the GYE handbook instead of trying to bypass my filters.

Commandment #8: Make fences
* Today I'll not touch myself.
* Today, when I feel like acting out, I won't. I'll wait 10 minutes, sitting or walking around if need be, and by then the lust will have passed.

Commandment #9: Doven better
Today I will direct my energy and spiritual vigor into my prayers. Today I'll focus on davening with more kavana.

Commandment #10: Love, not lust
I will work on understanding and living the difference between love and lust.

------------------------------------------
We're human, not angels, so it's OK to fall. If we learn from our mistakes and use them to raise us up to even a higher level than before the fall, our fall turns into a mitzva (thus the Chazal that our sins turn into mitzvot after teshuva me'ahava).

Best of luck! You are not alone! We are here for you holding your hand every step of the way!

Hi Chaim, welcome home!

The Gemoroh says in B"K מבעה זה האדם a person is ratzon. Hashem -who controls absolutely everything, gave us one thing: RATZON, that and nothing else. The more ratzon you have [for ex: to stay clean for 90 days] the more you are living. But if you think that YOU have the ability to control the y"h, then you're in trouble. Letting go doesn't mean c"v to cool off your ratzon. Rather it means to rely totaly on Hashem that HE will give you hatzlochoh!

The result of that is -like the Chovos Halvovos says, מנוחת נפש הבוטח -total calmness. The y'h and especialy the addiction thrives on stress. But once you have bitachon he's a goner, because not only does the stress dissapear but you actually automaticly get the siyata dishmaya that you need. (How and why is a whole discussion in itself)




This is so true. In fact, this is our mission in life. We most definitely have to focus on it and always be proactive. {In fact the same people who say "Let go..." also say to be very very involved.}




In my humble opinion this is a different issue. I personally have a lot of experience with this particular trick of the dirty despicable vicious menuval. First of all it needs to be exposed for what it is. Once you realize that it's the menuvals tactic, you can conciously avoid it.
It's also very important to recognize that you're an addict. Because the fact that you're an addict obviously gives you a blanket פטור from being mashgiach on everyone else problems. You just have to explain to the y"h that Hashem has other people to take care of these things; you have an official exemption.

But I don't think it has to do with letting go. Ad'raba part of taking action is avoiding triggers.

Hatzlochoh Raboh! and Chazak Ve'ematz!

Whose words are these? (If you don't mind my asking)

This is not exactly what Boruch said earlier. And is therefore not what I meant to bring a source for.

This is what he said:




To me there's a very important difference between the two.

What should be obvious from the Mesillas Yesharim is, that if someone does have experience, and he's offering to help you when you're stuck (IE:you haven't managed to find your way out and there's no logical reason to think that things will suddenly change) than you have to be a fool not to listen. Whether an addict can get help in a different way or not is a totaly seperate question.

I actually have a whole lot to say about this and about this thread in general, but I don't want to hog up this thread. So iy"h later today I'll start posting my thoughts on a new thread, over here: rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=571.0

Pinteleh tiereh,
Take a look at sefer shmiras halashon vol 2 chapter 2 where he says what u r saying with a beautiful moshol that if the house is full of "dirt" all the adornments in the world is not going to the house into Home Beautiful;) first get rid of the "sewage" and then call in the interior decorator;)
Ok this forum is becoming an addictio in itself with no known 12 stepsgroups and I promised my wife that a little helping hand......
Gut Shabbos to all (for real now;)) I'm sighning out
NB

Well, this Wednesday was 30 weeks clean. I have just about no urge to do anything which I should not. On the other hand, the further I get from my starting point, the more I can "feel" spiritually and emotionally. People tell me that I look happier and I act nicer. I am also starting to feel a void because I'm not married. However, this is not the kind of void I would have felt before (a need to feed my lust), but rather I feel like I need someone to have an emotional connection with. I certainly don't look at women the way I did before. I can talk to them when I need to without feeling disgusting and having disgusting ideas and images going through my head. I do realize that for many people here the damage is deeper and cannot be fully undone. This has nothing to do with your strength. If you were addicted for a much longer period of time, you may never be able to see a woman without being overwhelmed by lust. Again, this has nothing to do with willpower. Hashem was kind to me and let me get out of this early, and for that I'm very thankful. But each person here must do what can be done to avoid things which are triggering. If that means never speaking with women, that is what must be done, and I have much more respect and admiration for those people who fell to that level and have still broken the addiction than I do for myself and others like me.

EDIT:
I'm spending so much time on this forum because I feel obligated to read every single new post. As the forum continues to grow, I don't know how I'm going to keep up. I hope to see this "problem" continue to grow.

Hi JD! Welcome Home and thank you so much for joining us. From the amount of guys here that have had the same problem it really does seem that it is related to our lust problem. My experience has been that even when my addiction was under control, as long as the taivoh was strong it interfered.

On the one hand my wife definitely came into marriage with some kind of psychological problem.
But I have found that the less physical desire I have, the more the problem dissapears. (I think it's pretty easy to explain why, but it's not important.)

Just one question: Putting this issue aside for a minute, in general is your wife happy?

Either way, stay with us and soon we'll all greet Moshiach together.

Have a great Shabbos!!!

"So... maybe this addiction is actually the answer to my prayers! In other words, davka through this huge spiritual nisayon, Hashem wants me to draw closer to him! Isn't that an amazing thought?

The handbook expresses the idea that Hashem can put us into this challenge just so we can grow and become better Jews. That has really uplifted me, because until now I didn't feel worthy to fight, worthy to become close to Hashem. But the handbook helped me put it in the right perspective; that it's a nisayon just like all others and that I will overcome it, just as I have overcome others. This is not about me, it's about a challenge and mission that I have, in order to serve the almighty even better."

Dear Heiliga Yid,

What you are expressing in other words is the Bechira vs. Yidiah issue. This issue discusses that if Hakodosh Baruch Hu knows that you are going to sin, and the bottom line is that we can never do anything that is against his will, then all of our sins were his will to begin with. So what does Hashem want from us since we never had real Bechira in the first place?

Although throughout the generations, this question has been discussed by many, I have read about it in depth in a sefer called B'gan Emunah from Rav Shalom Arush. I advise everyone on this forum to learn it. Rav Moshe Wolfson said that this sefer was written for our generation.

Although he doesn't attempt to answer the question, and says that the answer is beyond our comprehension, he said that we have to implement both sides of the equation. When we have a nisayon, we have to totally believe in the concept of Bechira, free choice. But after we fall R"L, he states what you so elequantly said "davka through this huge spiritual nisayon, Hashem wants me to draw closer to him!". Basically, this was the "Yidiya", the Ratzon Hashem and you/we never had a choice but to sin.

This concept not only helps ease the guilt that accompanies failure, but on the contrary, drives a person with Emunah Pshuta to meet the challenge that his holy tatte set out for him, because utlimately, if Hashem wanted him to fall, it was because he knew that this person can climb out of the mess. This is clearly stated in the Gemorah in Avoida Zorah on Daf Gimel Umud Aleph. Hashem doesn't give us a test that we cannot ultimately handle.

Hatzlacha Rabbba! It is evident that you are extremely bright and Bezras Hashem, together with all your new friends on this site, you will succeed.

Pintele Yid

battleworn wrote on 19 Jun 2009 14:04:


Very true, once I realize, with the benefit of R' Yisroel Salanter, that I need someone with very specific experience in the area of my challenges.

The problem that I had for the longest time was that I thought that the general advice of the mesilas yeshorim when he gives the moshol of the maze to learn from Chazal's experience and do a bo'u cheshbon (clean house) was all I needed, and that I did not need any more specific advice than that.

If it were obvious from the mesilas yeshorim that it takes one addict to help another in a way that no non-addict could, then it is very likely that we would have had no dilemmas and debates of "Torah vs 12 Steps" in the first place.

So, I agree with your "tzu shtel" and comparison entirely, but like the best chiddushim, it is only obvious once you have seen it!!!

Here are the sections.  Please check back here every few days for updates.  There will be 15 sections in total
_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #1- Eulogy of the Yetzer Hara
Statement: The pasuk in zecharia makes a vague reference to a hesped (eulogy) that will take place in future times whereby men and women will be seated separately.  The Gemara quotes one opinion in the Gemara that understands that this will be the eulogy for the yetzer hara when it gets killed.
The Gemara asks: Why will there be a eulogy for the yetzer hara?  Why will people be crying? There should be joy to the world when the yetzer gets killed.
The Gemara Answers: We can understand this based on the statement of Rabbi Yehuda. 
Rabbi Yehuda:

• In the future times, Hashem will slaughter the yetzer hara in front of both the tzadikkim and reshaim.


• The tzadikkim will perceive the yetzer hara as a huge mountain.


• However, the reshaim will perceive the yetzer hara as a thin thread.


• Each one will cry.


• The tzadikkim will cry and bemoan, “How could we ever have conquered such a large mountain like this”. [Rashi explains further that they are crying as they remember their pain.]


• The reshaim will also cry and bemoan, “How could we have not conquered that small thread”.


• Hashem will also be shocked at them (not clear if it is referring to the tzaddim or reshaim).  The Gemara then proceeds to quote an ambiguous pasuk that supports that Hashem will be shocked at them.

Yaakov's Comment:

• What is the idea of Hashem Slaughtering the yetzer hara?


• Why does the yetzer hara look different to the tzadik and the rasha?


• Why are they both crying? The reason the Gemara presents does not seem to suffice.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #2-Thin to Thick
Rabi Yosi: The yetzer hara starts off like a thin strand from a spider but in the end it will be like large heavy ropes that can pull a wagon.  The Gemara quotes a pasuk to support this idea.
Rashi explains:  if a person gives in to temptation, even a little bit, the yetzer will get stronger and stronger and eventually control him. 
Yaakov's Comment:

• Hmm…Sounds strikingly familiar to something in my life.  Hint hint.


• Why is the yetzer hara referred to as a string altogether?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #3-The Seven Name of the Yetzer Hara
The yetzer hara has seven names.  Each name was assigned by someone else:

• Hashem: רע(Ra).  This is usually translated as evil or bad, neither is comfortable with me. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Moshe:ערל (A’rel), barrier or covering.  The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Dovid:טמא (Tamei), impure. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Shlomo:שונא(Sonei), enemy. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Yeshaya:מכשול (Michshal), obstacle. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Yechezkel:אבן(Even), stone. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.


• Yoel:צפוני(Tzafoni), concealed.  The Gemara quotes a pasuk.

Yaakov's Comment:

• What is the significance of each name?


• Are these seven different perspectives or seven aspects of the yetzer hara?


• What is the significance of the fact that Hashem called it Ra, Moshe called it A’rel, etc?  Meaning, is there a connection between who called it which name?


• How can Hashem call it Ra(Bad)?  Isn’t the purpose of the yetzer Hara to create bechira? Isn’t the greatest gift to mankind the gift of bechira?  If so, shouldn’t the yetzer hara be the ultimate Good in the world?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #4-The Reward for Combating the Yetzer Hara With Torah
In the middle of the previous discussion, the Gemara mentioned that Shlomo referred to the yetzer hara as an enemy.  The Gemara expounds on the pasuk that it quoted and presents the following beautiful idea:
Mishlei 25 אם רעב שנאך האכילהו לחם ואם צמא השקהו מים כי גחלים אתה חותה על ראשו וה' ישלם לך
Translation: If your enemy is starving, feed him bread.  If he is thirsty, feed him water.  By doing so you are stirring hot coals on his head.  Hashem will pay you back.
The Gemara comments:אל תקרי ישלם לך אלא ישלימנו לך
Translation: Do not read the last words of the pasuk as “pay you back” but rather “He make you feel complete and at peace”
Rashi: The pasuk is teaching us the idea of combating the yetzer hara with Torah.  If your yetzer hara (who is your enemy) is hungry you should feed him bread, meaning Torah.  Torah is compared to bread.  If he is thirsty, feed him water, meaning Torah.  Torah is compared to water. If you do this it, you will burn the yetzer hara with coals.  Hashem will then make you at peace.  Meaning, he will turn your yetzer hara from an enemy into a friend. The yetzer will no longer try to sway you to sin and make you be lost from the world.
Chaim's Comment:

• What are the different aspects of Torah referred to as Water and Bread?


• How does each one deal with the YH?


• What do coals on the head of the YH mean? What happens to him?


• The coals seems connected with section #9 where the Torah is compared to Fire


• What does the YH contribute to me as a friend?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #5-The Damage of the Yetzer Hara
At the end of section #3, the Gemara mentioned that Yoel referred to the yetzer hara as the concealed one.  The Gemara expounds on the pasuk that it quoted and will present a beautiful idea. To properly appreciate this teaching, I will present the reader with the necessary background.
Background:During the times of Yoel, the Yidden did some terrible aveira. Hashem sent locusts to the entire land of Israel, which brought economic disaster as the crops were all destroyed.  The pasukim describe with great emotion the trembling that these locusts brought to the people and the great destruction it brought to the land.  Yoel encouraged all the Yidden to do a mass teshuvah.  This was one of the most inspiring teshuva movements in all of Jewish history.    One will find in Yoel the most beautiful and moving pasukim in all of nach.  After Hashem accepted the Yidden’s teshuvah, he promised then prosperity.  The Navi proceeds to desribe how Hashem will rid the land from the locust.    It is on this pasuk that the Gemara will comment.  The pasuk reads as follows:
Yoel (2, 20):את הצפוני ארחיק מעליכם והדחתיו אל ארץ ציה ושוממה את פניו אל הים הקדמוני וסופו אל הים האחרון ועלה באשו ותעל צחנתו כי הגדיל לעשות
Translation:And I will remove the northern one (referring to the northern group locust) far away from you. I will then drive him into a barren and desolate land.  I will take its face (referring to the eastern group of locust) and drive it into the eastern sea (referring to the dead sea).  Its end (referring to the group in the west), I will drive it into the western sea (referring to the Mediterranean sea).  Its stench (from the dead locusts) will rise.  Its spoiled smell (from the remaining dead crops) will ascend.  (And why will hashem act so harshly against the locust) because it already did great things (great disaster).
The Gemara's Drasha:Now the Gemara will explain each part of the pasuk homiletically. The basic idea is that the pasuk is not only referring to the physical locust but on  a deeper level it is referring to the yetzer hara.

• ואת הצפוני ארחיק מעליכם [tr: And I will remove the [b]northern[/b] one (referring to the northern group locust) far away from you] – This refers to the yetzer hara that is hidden and stands in the heart of man. (chazal are learning from the word הצפוני , which can mean north or hidden. The literal interpretation is northern. And Chazal are learning homiletically that it refers to the yetzer hara. )


• והדחתיו אל ארץ ציה ושוממה [tr: I will then drive him into a barren and desolate land]  - I will drive the yetzer hara to a place where no man is found so that he can longer fight with them.


• את פניו אל הים הקדמוני [tr: I will take its face (referring to the eastern group of locust) and drive it into the eastern sea (referring to the dead sea)] – I am doing this because he had his eyes set on the first temple, destroyed it and killed talmidei chachamim.


• וסופו אל הים האחרון [tr: Its end (referring to the group in the west), I will drive it into the western sea (referring to the Mediterranean sea)] - I am doing this because he had his eyes set on the second temple, destroyed it and killed talmidei chachamim.


• ועלה באשו ותעל צחנתו [tr: Its stench (from the dead locusts) will rise.  Its spoiled smell (from the remaining dead crops) will ascend.] – I am doing this because he decided to ignore the goyim and put all his attention to fighting the Yidden.


• כי הגדיל לעשות [tr: because it already did great things (great disaster).] He put most of his attention to the talmidei chachamim in order to destroy them.

Yaakov’s Comment:

• How did Chazal interpret this pasuk as referring to the yetzer hara, when at face value it is referring to the locust?  Is there any connection from the allusion of Chazal(i.e. the yetzer hara) and the literal meaning (i.e. the locust)?


• Why does Hashem need to send the yetzer hara away from mankind; why doesn’t he simply kill him?


• Why does the Yetzer Hara have such a vested interest in the Talmidei Chachamim?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #6 – Greater People Have a Greater Yetzer Hara
Story: Abayei once heard a man talking with a certain lady.  The man suggested to the lady that the two of them should take a walk together.  The woman agreed.  Abayei decided he will follow them in order to prevent them from sinning (as abayei could only imagine how he himself would react in such a situation).  He followed them during their entire walk.  At the end of the walk, the man said to the lady, “your company was very pleasant. Thanks for joining in my walk.  Now we have to each go our own way”.  Abayei was shocked that it ended uneventful and that they did not succumb to sin.  He then admitted to himself that if his own yetzer hara was with him, he would not succeed in fighting the temptations.  This made abayei depressed.  How could it be that this simpleton person was able to avoid sin, and abayei who was the Gadol Hador would be nichshal.  Until finally an old man (perhaps Eliyahu Hanavi) visited him and told him the following important principle.
Principle: כל הגדול מחבירו יצרו גדול הימנו   
Translation: He who is greater than his friend has a greater yetzer hara.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• What is the reasoning of this principle?


• What does this really mean?
 

• When we look at the world, it does seem to be true. 


• Could it be that Abayei would succumb to the sub human level and commit such a terrible sin?


• Why wouldn’t Abayei’s Torah protect him?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #7 – Every Day the Yetzer Hara Increases
Rabbi Yitchak/Rabbi Shimon bein Lakish: Every day the the yetzer hara gets stronger and seeks to kill you. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #8 – Must Rely On Hashem to Succeed
Continuation from previous section: Without Hashem’s help, it is impossible to succeed. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• Why? Doesn’t the Gemara say that everything is in G-d’s hand except for fear of the L-rd?  Isn’t one’s fight with the yetzer hara all about fearing the L-rd?


• Doesn’t this Gemara seem to negate free will?


• What should we do different knowing this Gemara?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #9 – Combating the the Yetzer Hara with Torah
Rabbi Yishmael: If you meet up with the menuval (despicable one) pull him into the beis medrash.  If he is a stone, he will melt from Torah.  This is because the water can destroy stone and the Torah is water.  And if he is iron, he will explode from the Torah.  This is because the iron can explode from fire and the Torah is fire. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• Why label it as a’ menuval’?
 

• We normally label simply as ‘yetzer hara’. 


• What do chazal mean when they say if it a stone or if it is iron? 


• How come this trick does not seem to always work?

_______________________________________________________________________________

Section #10 – Dual Loyalty of the Yetzer Hara
Rabbi Yonason: The yetzer hara sways a man in this world (to do bad) and in the next world will be the witness to testify against him regarding all his bad deeds in this world. The Gemara quotes a pasuk.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• Isn’t the yetzer hara part of us?
 

• If not, isn’t he at least a relative?
 

• If not isn’t he at least an enemy?


• And if so, how could he testify against us; the Halacha is that a relative and an enemy cannot testify.

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Section #11 – Internalizing the Yetzer Hara
Rav Hunah: There is a contradiction in pasukim from Hoshea. 
First Pasuk(Hoshea 4, 12): כי רוח זנונים התעה
Translation: The spirit of harlotry has caused them to make mistakes
Second Pasuk:לא יתנו מעלליהם לשוב אל אלכיהם כי רוח זנונים בקרבם ואת ה' לא ידעו 
Translation: They did take to heart their bad ways and to teshuvah because the spirit of harlotry is within them.
Comment: The Gemara is bothered because the first psauk presents the ‘spirit of harlotry’ as an external force that is fooling them.  But the second pasuk presents the ‘spirit of harlotry’ as an internal force that is implanted in the heart.
Yaakov’s comment:

• It starts as an external force.


• But if you do not fight the yetzer hara and give in to temptations, eventually it will become a part of you. This will become your real desire.


• And based on the pasuk, we see that when this happens, teshuvah is out of bounds and to the point where the heart no longer wants to know hashem.  Yikes!


• This is why addictive people have such a hard time just picking up and doing teshuvah.

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Section #12 – From Passerby to Master of the House
Rava: The yetzer hara is originally called a ‘passerby’.  He is then called a ‘guest’. He then becomes the ‘master of the house’.  The Gemara quotes a pasuk.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• This is another classic gemora for addiction. 


• The more we give in to the yetzer hara, the more control he has on our lives, where he eventually becomes the master of the house. 
  He takes the control away from us.  This is why addicts lack self control. Yikes!


• This is why our Holy Rabbis have told us that many addicts are considered as if they are coerced (ones) in their actions (Steipler, Arvei Nachal parshas Shlach, beis haleivi parshas bereishis to list a few).

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Section #13 – The More You Feed The More You Need
Rabbi Yochanan: Man has a small organ (the reproductive organ).  If he feeds it, it will become hungry.  If he starves it, it will become satiated.
Rashi: If man indulges in marital relations (albeit permissible, but there are limits) he will be weak at an old age.  If he starves his desires for marital relations, he will have strength at an old age.
Maharsha/Tosfos: The more man indulges in marital relations, the hungrier he will be for it.  And the more he starves his desires, the more satiated he will be.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• Is the Gemara suggesting that we completely refrain from marital relations?

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Section #14 – Hashem Regrets Creating the Yetzer Hara
Rav Chana Bar Acha: The more creations that Hashem ‘regrets’ creating. One of them is the yetzer hara
Pasuk(Micha 4, 6):אשר הרעתי
Rashi: The Gemara is interpreting the above pasuk as saying that Hashem takes the blame for the Yidden’s sin because he ‘caused’ the wickedness by creating the yetzer hara.
Yaakov’s Comment:

• What does it mean that Hashem ‘regrets’?
 

• If he regrets it, why did he create it?

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Section #15 – It is Not Completely our Fault
[u]Rabbi Yochanan[/u]: There are three pasukim that illustrate that the Yidden’s wrongdoings are partially to be ‘blamed’ on Hashem.  These pasukim are therefore testifying that it is not completely our fault.  Without the testimony of these pasukim, the Yidden would never be able to exist, as the blame would be too much.

• Micha 4, 6:אשר הרעתי


• Yirmiyahu 18, :הנה כחומר ביד היוצר כן אתם


• Yechezkel 36: והסירותי את לב האבן מבשרכם ונתתי לכם לב בשר 

Rav Papa: There is a fourth pasuk that portrays the same idea

• Yechezkel 36: ואת רוחי אתן בקרבכם

Yaakov’s Comment:

• Does this negate free choice?

bardichev wrote on 18 Jun 2009 20:52:


Hello bardichev, Sholom uvrocho,
A Step is exactly what it's name suggests, a way to get from place A to place B.

To get successfully from place A to place B you need two things, the theoretical knowledge of what it takes to get from one point to another and the practical recognition of how to apply and use that knowledge. So, for example you could study driving in theory by reading the best instruction manuals but until you take driving lessons and get practice in how to apply that knowledge all the theory will remain useless.

The Ramban in his hakdomo to Bereishis says that all of chochmo is learned from Torah and that Shlomo Hamelech was able to plant peppers most successfully by deriving his knowledge directly from Torah. The level of Shlomo Hamelech's knowledge and understanding of Torah was such that he was able to master both the theory and practice of planting peppers directly from Torah.

How about if I need to grow peppers?

I could do one of two things:

1) Try and learn so well that I reach the madreigo of Shlomo Hamelech in Torah so that I too could derive both the theory and practice of planting peppers directly from Torah.

2) Get a book on agriculture, study it and then go down to a farm and spend time getting experience until I am ready to grow peppers myself.

Which one will I choose? Obviously the second. Does that mean that a book on agriculture and some months on a farm are somehow equivalent to Torah? After learning the book and spending time on the farm am I on the same madreigo as Shlomo Hamelech? Obviously not. It is just that for me becoming like Shlomo Hamelech is impossible.

Let us now move to the question of mussar and kevishas hayetzer. Rav Yisroel Salanter wrote in Or Yisroel (Iggeres 19) that Torah is the theoretical knowledge where practical experience is not required but mussar is the practical knowledge of how to apply Torah to life and for that practical experience is a must.

In Or Yisroel (Igros 19 and 20) he says that medicine and business have a large body of practical knowledge and have hard and fast general rules that apply to many circumstances and therefore the same approach can be used in different cases. Mussar says R' Yisroel, is different - different people need different paths and what works for one won't necessarily work for another (Iggeres 19). Furthermore he writes what works for one middah in one person will not necessarily work for another middah in the same person (Iggeres 20). For this reason R' Yisroel refuses to give written mussar advice to one of his talmidim and insists that they need to meet one-on-one at length before they can determine the correct course of mussar (Iggeres 19).

So as much as medicine and business depend on practical experience, mussar requires even more. That is why mussar advice requires great experience on the part of the Rebbe who then uses his own personal experience to work one-on-one with the talmid to develop the correct plan of action.

So, following R' Yisroel Salanter, if I needed mussar in parenting, in general, I would not be well-advised to go for advice to someone with no kids and in general if I needed mussar in Sholom Bayis I would not be well-advised  to go for advice to a bochur.

That is the problem with addiction. In general we do not have Rabbeim with their own practical experience of overcoming addiction to prescribe the right mussar. Is this a chisoron of Torah? No doubt Shlomo Hamelech could have used his knowledge of the secrets of Torah to have derived the practical knowledge to help addicts even without first-hand experience. But when an addict came to one of the most practical mussar teachers of our generation, Rav Avigdor Miller Zt"l, Rabbi Miller told him that he could not help him.

When I was fighting addiction, and my own mussar was not working for me, I had no choice, there was no Shlomo Hamelech to go to. So I went to the practical experience of millions of addicts.

Their experience is that the basic prescription of AA co-founder, Dr Bob (see a copy of his prescription here) to

1. Trust in G-d

2. Clean House

3. Help Others

is just what the addict needs. Their experience is that "Trust in G-d , Clean House, Help Others" is easiest to achieve through 12 Steps. Their experience is that the best way to get the 12 Steps is by working one-on-one with someone who has experience of the same addiction and experience overcoming that addiction by using the Steps.

This is how it is summarized in the AA Big Book:

"one alcoholic could affect another as no nonalcoholic could... strenuous work, one alcoholic with another, was vital to permanent recovery."
(p xvi-xvii)

Does this mean that we need to get defensive about the supremacy of Torah? Absolutely not. Mussar, as R' Yisroel said long before the AA Big Book was ever written, depends on experience, and fortunately our Rabbeim had no experience of addiction.

Jack, that is what all the other 8 boards on this forum are for. But THIS board is strictly for Torah Chizuk, since some people haven't reached real levels of addiction yet, and even if they have, there are some people who this type of Chizuk helps. So like you say, "vus is shlecht?" Being Moisif Kedusha is NEVER Shlecht...

And remember, no debating on this board, as in the rules I laid out over here. All debates of this nature can be done on other boards, particularly on this thread, where Boruch just posted an amazing post (reply #69) in line with what you are trying to say Jack! It was so powerful that even Bardichev agrees now!!  ;D

Below you will find an incomplete list of gemoras, by daf.  These were gemaras that I have been reviewing over the past few months during my months of recovery.  I tried my best to outline the basic principles of each gemara, with few exceptions. 

Succa 52a
1. The more you give in to the y”h, the stronger it becomes
2. The greater you are you, the more challenging the y”h is.
3. The seven names of y”h(this will take a while to explain)
4. Hashem ‘regrets’ creating the y”h (This is a very deep yesod.  Behind this teaching is the secret as to the purpose of the y”h)
5. Both tzadikkim and reshaim will cry when they see their yetzer hara.
6. The y”h wants to kill you.
7. Using the Torah to fight the y”h [this is a very deep yesod and has never been properly addressed on the forum. One of the basic questions is why doesn’t is always work.]
8. Without Hashem’s help, it is IMPOSSIBLE to beat the y”h.
9.    The more one feeds his sexual desires, the hungrier it becomes.

Kiddushin 20a
1. Repetitive aveiros are harder to break because we become desensitized. (This is one of the most fundamental gemaras in terms of understanding the potential danger of addictions.  It also reveals how to properly heal oneself from addictive behavior.  This was one if the most powerful gemaras for my recovery)

Kiddushin 30b
Beating the y”h with Torah and other goodies.

Kiddushin 40a
1. Unbelievable stories of people who were ready to kill themselves rather than commit arayos [the Gemara 81a says that these people BECAME chasidim by the fact that they stood the test]
2. Repetitive aveiros get punished for the thoughts
3. What to do when faced with an uncontrollable urge.

Kiddushin 81a
1. Beware: Everyone has the potential of becoming powerless to lust, to the degree where in the time of nisayon can lack complete control
2. If a person has a nisayon and cannot extinguish the urges internally (even if he is maintaining a certain level of self control by holding back) he should use external means.
3. A person should be ready to do ANYTHING to protect himself from sin, even if it means making a fool of oneself.
4. Remember: It is better to be shamed in this world than in the world to come.
5. Do not belittle someone else’s nisayon.
6. With the merit of Torah one can be prevented from sin.
7. Temptations start from the eye.
8. Do not incite the the y”h(this is a rather esoteric yesod.  The maharal gives a beautiful explanation that it means do not try to beat the y”h on your own, it will only anger the Y’H.  Only with using the help of hashem one can succeed.)
9. Daven to Hashem to remove/destroy the y”h, meaning ask him to remove all temptations.
10. Even if you feel no temptations, even if you are an old man, keep davening.
11. Daven to be SAVED from the yetzer hara.

Avodah Zara 17a
Rabbi Eliezer ben durdei (see maharal in nesiv hateshuva who explains every detail)

Berachos 5a
What to do when faced with a nisayon (four step process)

Berachos 17a
The yetzer is labeled as sourdough (Understanding the principle can really help a lot in terms of identifying the y”h)

Berachos 20a
One needs to be afraid of the y”h in terms of refraining from entering into a situation that may lead to lust [even for good intentions]

Shabbos 34a
1. Punishment for those that engage in lewd discussions (נבול פה)
2. Punishment for those that tend their hearts to Aveiros (precisely lust)

Shabbos 64a
1. Bnei Yisroel needed kapara at midyan because they had hirhurei aveira.
2. Bnei Yisroel needed kapara at midyan because they derived benefit from looking at women of midyan.
3. Deriving benefit from even a small finger is like makom turfa

Eiruvin 63a
Is it better to fight the yetzer hara head on or avoid him and wait for it to simmer down (based on meiri’s interpretation)

Nidah 13a
masturbation and related topics

Bava Basra 57b
Darka achrina