My Dear Postal

If anyone can say they relate to you, I can, 8 months ago I lost my sobriety after 3 years!  But I have not given up, no one can take away from me the clean time I had it is an achievement that proves I can do it again one day at a time, sitting around being miserable is only going to keep me in the sickness.

You make some really good points that I relate to:

PostalServicio wrote on 22 Jun 2009 03:28:


Never ever underestimate the power of addiction, it is far stronger than we ever will.  Addiction is an insanity that only ever get progressively worse, how many of us started off by being addicted to masturbation, then onto soft porn............ each time swearing by everything holy that we will never get worse and before we realise it we have crossed that line.  Before I came into recovery I went to see a renowned Dayan in London as I was going through a really bad phase of misfortune and I attributed that to Hashems wrath, the Dayan asked me if I had crossed a certain line and I got really upset and said "I only have a problem with the internet I would never do THAT!"  Well guess what within a year I did just THAT thing I thought I would never in my life do.  Further part of the insanity every time I act out my disease tells me that I will get a different result, but in truth I am beating my head against a brick wall and expecting a different result each time - How insane is that? 

PostalServicio wrote on 22 Jun 2009 03:28:


You write that many of us have given it our all? I do not want to be harsh on you and neither am I judging you, I know from my experience that very often I will "appear" to take the right actions but when I do an in depth soul search of myself I will have to admit that there are further lengths I could have gone to,  Hashem is not going to "fix" me He wants me to put in the effort, when I daven to Hashem to relieve me of the addiction I have to mean it, I cannot give up to Hashem my addiction with one hand and hold onto it with the other hand.  The AA program talk about rigorous honesty, which is very difficult for me as an addict to do this as I am so used to justifying the unjustifiable.  When I have slipped in the past I have to do an in depth Chesbon Hanefesh and see where my program was lacking where could I have taken a different action.  You also talk about the "moment of insanity" for me the 12 steps have been crucial in this respect, the program gives me a choice before I act out to either take an action like call someone or act out, this choice is only there for a split second.  When I was in active addiction I never had a choice, as soon as the compulsion struck I was like a robotic slave and went and acted out, now in recovery I have a choice and it's up to me.  Just last week I was sitting in my office dealing with some very difficult financial issues and a major craving to act out hit me, I made some phone calls to members but did not get through, that’s when the choice came either I can continue to try and get hold of someone / leave my office or I could act out.  Unfortunately I chose to act out and the insanity set it.  Thank G-d I did not progress into a binge and I have been sober since, and thank G-d since then whenever the compulsion has struck I have been able to make the right choice, I also know that the longer I am sober the less the compulsions are likely to strike.

In summery all I have written is steps 1 - 3 of the program.  Step one I am powerless over my acting out, and when I act out my entire life becomes completely ruined,  Step 2 I by myself cannot cure myself but Hashem can restore me to sanity, if I use Step 3 and trust in Him take the right actions.

Most importantly, is to keep coming back.
London

Reb Pintele, Although this a disscussion in itself and I'm not about to get all in to it here and now (I sound like a broken record) I just want to point out for accuracy's sake that Torah and Tefiloh do wonders for an addict when they're done right. In short, you need to know three things
1) Who you are
2) Who you are davening to (If for ex: you think c"v that it was a bad idea to give you this nissoyon then it's not Hashem that you're talking to "Lo osi karasa yaakov ki yagata bi Yisroel")
3) What you are davening for.

When you get that all straight Tefiloh does wonders and when you learn the right way (I discussed it a little in the other thread) then that also does wonders.

Rabeinu Guard, it's exactly the perspective that we were discussing over here. We are talking about addicts, and it's the same material.




On the contrary it was the meetings that gave him the perspective.

In answer to your question, the y'h never gives up. Even what we already know very well he will always try to make us forget. The musser seforim say it all the time. And that's why the M'B says that everyone is mechuyav to learn musser every day. But if you want to know if he really needs to continue going to meetings or he can move on to something bigger and better, now that's a good question. I think it may be related to the question in #6 above

True, but every situation in life requires a particular perspective. How can one achieve the proper perspective for beating addiction? By going to those who are "melumadim" in the right perspective for this particular situation.

Second, even Dov could never have done it with perspective alone. Till today he is still joining meetings and calling sponsors. 11 years!! If it was just perspective, don't you think he would have gotten it by now? 

Dear Chabura Kadisha,

I had stopped commenting on this post for a while because I was doubting my right as a non-addict to respond. How could I have an opinion if I never tread on the "Admas Kodesh" that you have experienced? I decided to respond because Hashem told Moshe "Sha'al' Na'alecha Ma'al Raglecha" but never told him to leave.

What does "Sha'al' Na'alecha Ma'al Raglecha" mean? To me it means that you should have no "covering" and be very sensitive when you enter a place where you are an outsider. With all that said, I ask mechila if I cause anyone pain by saying what I am about to say.

It is blantantly obvious that Torah and Tefillo have not been the solution. Some have related that they actually made the problem worse.

Some have stated that it doesn't work because addicts are too sick to relate to it.

The question that I have been grappling with since the thread has began is why? How is it possible if "Istakel Beoiraysa Uburah Alma", that Torah is the blueprint of the world, so Torah should be able to solve everything? If you have any doubt, it says that Torah is the "Tavlin", the cure for this addiction?

To those who say that the Gemorah is not referring to those who are sick, I say that the Gemora doesn't say "Huchu B'maiy Askinun", "when does this apply", when the person is not an addict, but when the person is an addict then Torah doesn't work.

Therefore, I humbly feel that this is not the correct answer.

The other possibility is what others are saying that since Torah is unstructured, and since there currently doesn't exist any Torah based 12 step program, then of course anyone who had tried to use Torah to heal their sickness failed, because they weren't implementing Torah in the correct way to solve the problem!

When Harav Miller said he couldn't help the addict, he was saying the Emes, because he personally never implemented the Torah in the 12 step program! Therefore the only solution, was to go to a professional implementer of the 12 step program.

This post is a challenge to all those who have somewhat succeeded in beating their addiction using the 12 step program and are versed in Torah, (especially those who are well versed in Torah concepts and have initially failed because they used it wrong),  with much Tefilo for Syata Dishmaya, to band together to create a Torah based 12 step program or a 12 step program based on Torah. Whatever you want to call it.

Such a program would attract many in our community who have mistakenly stayed away from the program because it wasn't based on Torah. I also think that ultimately, the koach of Torah will help solidify the program and make it more successful for all.

Since the advent of this Website, which has gathered together addicts in "numbers" into one "Chabura Kadisha", there is no greater Eitz Ratzon than now to create it. It could be that the whole reason for some of you who failed through trying to use the Torah to succeed, is specifically so you should create this program for many others to benefit from such a structured program.

Heliga Guard, I don't know the appropriate method of getting this done. Whether it is a periodic "call in workshop" or through a forum. That could be up for discussion. But it seems to me that the bottom line is we start with step one and then search for relevant concepts from the Torah to put into that step, and then bsyata Dishmaya move on to step two etc.... 

For example, learning mussar won't help you in the heat of the moment, but maybe fleeing from your immediate environment (home or wherever you might be at the time) might be the right answer. You see this from the Torah. Yoseph Hatzaddik didn' t learn Mussar after 10 drops of zerah left his fingers, he got out! He might have fled to the nearest cemetary for a reality check. Rav Amram Chasida didn't say Tehillim when he started climbing up that ladder, he cried fire so others would come and help him out of his mess. Today it is the speed dial on the cell phone (as has been implemented as a result of the 12 step program).
Hope this suggestion makes sense.

Pintela Yid

I think that it shows that no matter how badly addicted one is, the answer still lies in perspective!!!

One more point:




I don't know if you read #3 where I discussed this. It seems that you agree with Dov on this. (Ayin shom, you'll see that I asked a kasha on this pshat.) I would like to also know what others have to say about it.

Dear Battle, The first tool in the GYE handbook is called "Attitude". And for that tool alone, we created a whole "Attitude handbook". Most - if not all - of the things that you wrote in reply #3 above appear in the Attitude handbook. This is indeed the first tool that anyone who has not been successful until today, needs to try. He needs to try to change his entire attitude to Yiddishkeit, to Torah and to understanding what Hashem wants from him an is purpose in the world. HOWEVER, this is only the very FIRST tool. This can be helpful for many people who have not reached more advanced stages of addiction. But the moment that the addiction has progressed a little further, attitude alone won't be enough. That is why the GYE handbook lists another 17 tools! Live SA groups is step 15! That means that before we encourage someone to go to the live groups, we try the other 14 steps first. That is the Mehalach on GYE. So those posts that you claim say that "the only way is the 12-Step way", are talking to people who have tried tool #1-#14. For such people, they MUST join a live SA group if they value their lives, if they value their Yiddishkeit, if they want to save what's left of it! London explained this very well above. And so did Boruch in the other post about Torah and the 12-Steps. People whose addictions have advanced to a certain level can not take the cure out of the Torah, in just the same way that they can't learn how to grow peppers from the Torah (even though Shlomo Hamelech could). So I don't understand the "diyun" here. You are right that before someone goes to an SA group they should try getting their attitude straight. Everyone agrees with that, that is tool #1. And if that doesn't work, they have another 14 tools to try. But if all that has still not helped, SA is the next and best tool that Hashem has blessed the world with. And anyway, SA is the ABC's of Yiddishkeit as well. It helps us develop a whole new perception of our connection with Hashem, but that can only come through the live groups. I ask you to please read Reb Dov's amazing post yesterday to "gma316" (reply #33 over here). It is a bit long, but well worth it!

Take 2:




This is something I have thought about long and hard.
I think that it stands to reason that if someone considers the Groups an alternative rather than a “tachbula” (see above #5) then they may be in great danger. For Ex: I know someone (not on the forum) that seems to have a very very cold attitude towards Yiddishkeit, and a very enthusiastic attitude towards the 12 steps. And I know that in his case he definitely looked at it as an alternative to Torah.

B’H all the members of the forum are Yirei Shomayim. But just sometimes (definitely not a lot of times) there are posts which seem to be saying “The only way is the 12 step way and not the Torah way, because the Torah can’t deal with addiction” At least that’s how it seems to me.

Assuming that I’m at least partially right, it would Le’choira be in place to warn people that they must have the right perspective. They have to have it very clear that the 12 steps are not an alternative to Torah but rather a way to get to Torah. What do you say to that?

My friend, battleworn, sometimes I am still deep in the darkness.  I have found though that the darkness is different than what it used to be.  Six months ago (and before) so much of the darkness was self-imposed, a direct result of my addiction.  How difficult it is to rise up when one is emitting the darkness onesself!  I return to the event that finally shook me enough to take action and take it seriously beyond anything I had done before.  It was Shabbos Parshas Vayeishev, which this year fell on the Shabbos immediately prior to Channukah.  Nobody in this town really knew me then, so there was no way anyone could have known, but I was called up for the fourth aliyah.  The aliyah of Onan.  I know the aliyah is primarily about Yehudah and Tamar, but to me it will always be the aliyah of Onan.  I am not exactly fluent in Hebrew (or rather I should say not fluent at all), but I knew the history of Onan was in that parshah.  As soon as I returned to my seat and checked my Chumash, I found my suspicion was true.  I have rarely felt that kind of fear in my life.  Oh, I have felt the fear of nearly being hit by a car or a panic attack from the sudden barking of a vicious dog on the other side of a fence.  This was different; I would call it existential fear (those of you who have ever read 20th century continental philosophy will perhaps understand what I mean).  To explain: most fear has a specific object to which one can point, a car or a dog, for instance.  One cannot point at G-d, though, as if He were a specific object.  He is beyond our so-called objectivity, limited as we are.  In one school of existential philosophy, they spoke of something called Angst, which roughly translates as dread.  For these people, fear had an object and dread or Angst did not.  This is what I experienced: for the first time in my life I knew what it was to fear Hashem, truly and deeply.  I know that many say that fear really means awe, but I am not sure that is really the case.  At any rate, that moetzei Shabbos, I acted out for the last time, and I felt sick.  The next evening, I lit the first candle on the Channukiah and I began to have a new light in my life.  It was just a few days later that I began posting on this forum.

So I had learned yiras Shemayim.  I still needed to learn ahavas Hashem.  I have has no such dramatic experience in this arena (as yet).  It is just the day by day effort of committing myself to Torah study, trying to keep Hashem foremost in my thoughts, doing mitzvos, etc.  Looking back, I realize that gaining yiras Shemayim was actually a great gift from Hashem, who actually does love me.  In fact He loves me enough to give me a big enough smack to get my attention.

Many things in my life are not yet resolved, and at this point seem far from it.  I still have deep concerns about the Yiddishkeit of the rest of my family and what will become of us.  I honestly don't know if my marriage will survive in the long haul.  My wife has said how deeply she loves me, but she is not at all attached to Torah and Mitzvos.  If I (and the beis din) knew the doubts my wife had about observance, I doubt my conversion would have happened three years ago.  The fact is though, that it happened.  I am fully committed to Yiddishkeit and to klal Yisroel.  I cannot and will not turn back.  It has led me to confront the deepest, darkest part of myself and brought the light of Torah into my neshamah.  That light will also come into my family life.  May it be that the light of Hashem and His Torah will draw my wife and children, and not drive them away.  May it also be, that I should be a light to draw them closer, and not such a jerk that I drive them away.  I have spent some time reading the Garden of Peace, so I hope that the latter won't be a problem, but continuing review of that book certainly won't hurt.  It is difficult to be alone in my family, insofar as Torah is concerned.  They observe a minimum of kashrus, Shabbos, and taharas hamishpacha, but only so I can actually live with them.  G-d willing, things will change for the better and soon.

Dear, sweet fellow addict:

Your contribution to this thread is indispensable! Here is my share to you be"H:

#1: I love you because you are a fellow nivroh; especially because you are a yid; and especially because you are a fellow addict. In fact, the more pain of failure and loss that your share in your posts, the more I love you. In addition, the ahava/respect I have for you will never change, even if you get better, because I believe that "once an addict always an addict" (so it's not an ahava that is teluyah b'davar!).
Love means: I will do anything I can to help you, without any expectation of payment, at all. It also means I will help you gladly, and the only thing you can do for me would be to benefit from my help.

Before i go on, please pause a moment and think: Can you believe me? please take note of your answer (maybe write it out?) and then continue...

#2: You may have heard/read divrei Torah in a similar vein, but please just forget all the chochmos for now and consider your own "torah", your own emess. I'll share mine with you: Certainly Hashem loves you more than I do, more than your daughter does, and more than anyone ever did, or will. He must also even love you if and while you are acting out, actually. Not approve, but love - and love the same.
This is very important.
Whenever I calmly think about:
a- "who/what" Hashem is,
b- that He created us al korcheinu (pirkei avos) and even though He didn't have to at all, and that
c- He must be freely and only giving since He has no needs at all, I recognize that bishvili nivrah haolam really means that He is 100% totally - unconditionally - ON MY SIDE and always will be.

How about you? Can you accept that? Even partway? I believe acceptance of this fact was an indispensable ikkar of 12-step recovery for me. I actually came to it by doing my fourth step, truly recognizing and accepting for the first time who I really am (good and bad) and realizing that Hashem still has a relationship with me! Shortly after that (it was 1.5 years in the program), I discovered completely by chance that I could actually smile at who I saw in the mirror, for a change. It was incredible. And it still is.

#3: You call acting out "defying Hashem". I doubt you ever acted out to defy Hashem, at all. But I guess you are choosing to view the evil of what you did from His perspective. So, let's get perspective here: I believe we all "defy Hashem" really, as we are ultimately all selfish ignoramuses when it comes to recognizing our total and constant dependence on Him, yisborach, yes or no? And we probably always will be. The best we can ever do is really not much. (our tafkid here is to recognize we are handicapped and react with a resounding: AF AL PI CHAYN! HERE I GO! - and do a mitzvah besimcha, rather than to lie to ourselves and pretend - out of gaavah - that we SHOULD at least have some of the hisbatlus of the avos. Don't you/we blame many such lackings on our acting out, "if only I wouldn't be so bad"?) Even when we do His Will, it's us deciding to do it, no? That itself is selfish in a sense (not bad, mind you, just selfish). The malochim were correct when they tayneh'd vs. Moshe rabeinu - and his answer wasn't an argument with the facts, just "hey, do you have kin'ah, die, desire, steal, etc?") And He still wants our shirayim of avodah! Remember the story of rav saadiah, or whoever it really was, and the inkeeper who recognized him only after his stay at the inn? he said "I'd have done better yesterday had I only recognized you for who you really were!" and the tzaddik's reaction was to burst into tears and cry to Hashem: My avodah of yesterday is a shame to me today, for i know You better today! Gevalt! Forgive me and help me do better! - then he moved on!) This is an indispesible reality-check as well, I believe.

(This is not to say, "why bother trying to be a tzaddik, or any better at all!" No, I am just pointing out that if you want to call your choices "defying Hashem" or "evil", then at least recognize that the best any of us will likely ever do is still rather pathetic, though every bit of improvement towards goodness and perfection - His Ratzon - is precious beyond our ken. That's just what we are! Like babies w/o true da'as, compared to Him.)

So, please consider some alterations to your perception of reality and "cool your jets" of self-condemnation - and you'll be able to get better.


Please pardon my harshness, in summation, but I believe it is our YH that says: "Hashem only really loves me when I am good (if He loves me at all), and even then only after I do some teshuva", and "but what I did was worse, so His hands are tied and he can't be in love with me!". These (normal) sentiments (particularly for us who have been taught the standards hashem wants us to live up to for our own benefit) are rubbish. They are poison and were a convenient cop-out for me, actually, leading only to a downward spiral and to a more unrealistic understanding of HKB"H.

Some quotes from you and my shares to you:

"regret that I have lost yet another streak I do not know if I should stay on the list or chart as I cant seem to fight any more how far I have fallen from who I was"
I'd like to know who fed you the idea that if you only try hard enough, you will "beat it". Who told you that you are locked in a mortal combat of wills against lust? Whoever it was, they may want to re-evaluate because it seems that you only need to fail a few more times before you have no more ability to fight - and then what? Apparently you will just keep losing, basically giving in to what you call the YH completely, no? You sound just as I did once upon a time. I was sure I'd get better. Later I wasn't so sure. Finally - after meds, shrinks, near-arrest and near-death twice and near-divorce, I was sure I'd never get better but drew comfort from the fact that I'd keep my secret to the grave. Not a life for a nice jewish boy.

My dear friend GMA, This is not the way of the program that I am familiar with, at all. No, the 12-step program that works for me and others is not for the man who needs help to try harder - though it'd help him, too - it is for the one who is hopelessly lost and realizes he cannot win because there is something wrong with him. It's especially for the one who everyone else finally gives up on. He needs an honest and realistic partnership with the G-d he thought he had. (You can read about this in "The Doctor's Opinion" at the beginning of AA) The program I know says to this one, the she-eino yodeah lish'ol (or maybe even the rasha?): There is hope, even for you! Just take these steps. (You can read exactly this, at the start of ch 5 in AA) We are talking about your life, here.

"how can I expect him to be good for me or even provide good for me if keep on falling to my yetzer harah and defying Hashem?"
Well, see the above (and Tomer Devorah) to see that Hashem is big enough to be really, really good - even to you. Please see the Heiligeh Divrei Chayim in Toldos (or Vayeitzei?) on the posuk: vayikra lo keil, elokei yisroel  to see exactly how Hashem takes "revenge" on people like us! Amazing. It tells my life story all the way through, BTW!)
Again, if you have a love-affair with this "yetzer hora" business, good luck. But if you look honestly inside and decide that you may be addicted, then consider reading AA's first couple of chapters for Bill's story, then decide if you are just as hopeless as he was. If you are, we have an answer that may work for you as it does for us.

"Instead I have brought this terrible illness of lust upon myself and I feel until I break it nothing postivie will come to anymore as I do not deserve it"
More of the same. Maybe you are at fault for bringing this terrible illness upon yourself, maybe not. I don't know. Kaballah seforim have much to say about proclivities, responsibility, bad levushim from one's parents, etc. It is all a complicated and confusing issue, really. It is also irrelevant. What I do know is that you are calling it an "illness". To me that is a worthy of a rikud (hopefully with the berdichever!) as it may mean that you feel in some way ill. Now maybe you'll consider that perhaps you are handicapped and stop beating yourself up. I hope you will get the help that ill people like you and I need instead of doing what I did for over ten years: watch my life go by in a valiant struggle.

"get a relationship with the ribono shel olam"
Bingo - You hit the nail on the head! If this is what you really want then you'll be OK. But first, recognize the relationship you already have, as above, and learn how to go from there.

"the loneliness gets too much for me, I turn only to hashem and the hand books for help," 
Again, you are obviously a deep and holy Jew, yet you are still lonely. Now, how about connecting a little more than you currently are, with other lust addicts? This forum is a nice start, but being in a chevra and having a human sponsor/role model was indispensable to me.

I love you!

Dov

Reb London, thanks for your concern, but no I am B'H not struggling.  





Why do you think I would be surprised? According to my understanding SA has all the nessecary components for success. I assume that the main reason that their success rate isn't much higher is because the rest or the people don't really want to recover. They're just going so they can say that they tried.




I have two motives. First of all, I love all Jews insanely and I want to be able to help people in the best way possible.

Second of all Emes and K'vod Shomayim are extremely important to me.




I'm not sure I understand the question. Did you read what I wrote?

Dear Battleworn

I am not sure of your motives in this post, and what exactly you are seeking to clarify.  There is an English saying "if it 'aint broke, don't fix it".  So my question simply is - is what you are doing now working, are you staying sober, staying stopped, and leading a purposeful life?  If you are then, great! Why the long Shabbos Hagodol drosho on the 12 steps?  However, if what you are doing is not working, then why not try working the steps and go to an SA meeting what have you got to lose?  We have it on good authority that the 12 steps are not contrary to Judaism.

In my experience long before I came into SA I went to speak to Rabbonim and Mashgichim, and they all sympathised with me, but none of them gave me the answer like the 12 steps do.  If the answer was so simple as to learn more mussar or daven harder why did they not tell me this, the answer to me is that most Rabbonim are way out of their depths with mental issues like addictions, they do not understand, and why should I expect of them to understand me.  Perhaps if someone has the occasional urge to look at porn etc the answer is to be mechazaik oneself with mussar etc.  Nowadays we do not have the capacity of the previous generations to look into the Torah and derive the practical solutions for the world’s problems.  I am sure beyond a shadow of doubt that there is a cure for cancer contained within the Torah, but which Rov would be so foolish to advise someone suffering with cancer r'l to immerse himself in the Torah to find the solution, he has to see a Doctor and start a treatment of chemotherapy.  Lust addiction is a spiritual cancer of the soul, that on any given time is only getting progressively worse as we try and maintain the highs.  The 12 steps is a spiritual chemotherapy.  For me (I speak for myself only) learning mussar in isolation would not work, I need the physical interaction of going to meetings, speaking with my sponsor, making and receiving calls during times of distress, and working the 12 steps.

Therefore R' Battle, if you are still struggling with this insidious addiction, perhaps you should try going to a meeting and asking for help, you may be pleasantly surprised.  For me working the steps has now given me a foundation of to my yiddishkeit, it is helping be a true Eved Hashem, for me it's not Torah v's 12 ; Torah is the 12 steps, the fact that it was originated by Non-Jews, I will leave that up to Hashem to worry about, there are so many inventions out there that were invented by the Non-Jews that we use to help us in our Yiddishkeit, let this join the ranks.

I will end of by quoting from the AA Big Book "There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

London

Yakv_Shwartz once posted his story, and I quote an excerpt from when he was in midst of the addiction:

During my first year of marriage, I would stand for long amounts of time at the top of a very tall building, ready to jump. I just asked Hashem to take my life. I can't bare this anymore. I would get on a bus, and daven to Hashem for there to be an accident and I will get killed. I will first cast away my problems, do teshuva and vidui. This way I can die with teshuva.

Today Yakov is the Rosh Yeshiva of the GYE Beis Medrash and has inspired hundreds of people on this forum with his posts!

So take HOPE.

Thank you. I knew that that was your post but when I read it on Friday I don't remember it saying that. Being that your post was edited, I wasn't sure if that was what you said. I do not see anything in your orignal posts that says that "no non-addict could". Yes of course you quoted it from the big book and of course it's true for them, but you know very well that we have something that they don't have.

I'll give you a little illustration from your own ex. of chinuch. I have a child that is in big trouble. I've spoken to experts with much experience. But a few months ago I had a little talk with R' Tvi Meir. He spoke very humbly, he doesn't claim to be an expert and he doesn't have experience. But it soon became abundantly obvious that he knew what he was talking about lightyears ahead of all the experienced experts. He poshut knew exactly what is going on in the kid and exactly what he needs, when the experts had no idea.

You already alluded to this in the quote that I quoted before. Right now I'm not sure where you stand on the issue, so please let us know.