boruch wrote on 23 Jun 2009 09:55:


Please can you explain, I have not seen this.  What I have seen is that SA will only help me with  my lust addiction only.  I have issues with food and money for that I am working other fellowships.  There is emotional truama that I have suffered from my childhood that I deal with in therapy.  I do not believe there is one size fits all approach, people do not become addicts in a vaccum, and a person in recovery needs to go to the core of himself and find out why he has become an addict and fix the damage.  SA is a tool in this process, however if I am not sexually sober I cannot deal with anything, sobriety is the foundation, if I am not sober, no mussar or therapy in world will help.

London

battleworn wrote on 21 Jun 2009 13:24:


Chochom odif minovi - the wise man has something over the prophet and certainly there is no requirement to have actual direct experience in every facet of life to discover the correct mussar approach. There are some situations, however that are so complex that without direct experience there is no way to adequately give advice.

I have a friend who is a recovering addict with 3 years of sobriety who told me that he originally went to HoRav Chaim Kanievsky Shlit"a and asked him about his addiction and whether he should do the Steps. HoRav Chaim Kanievsky Shlit"a told him that he cannot answer that question and he should go and ask HoRav Aron Leib Shteinman Shlit"a. HoRav Aron Leib Shteinman Shlit"a told him that he is not personally familiar with the Steps and therefore cannot express any direct opinion on the Steps but he has heard of SA, has heard that it works and he told my friend to join and do the Steps.

That is the difference between gedolim, who only speak of what they know, as opposed to me who posts on forums as if I am some sort of expert without really knowing what I am talking about.

Pintele Yid wrote on 22 Jun 2009 09:42:


Pintele,
I agree with almost everything you write.

There is no question in my mind at all that there is nothing absolute about the 12 Steps and their current wording. When the first 40 alcoholics sobered between 1934 - 1939 (the 100 men and women referred to have been explained by some to have included wives and family members who also belonged to the groups in those days) there were no 12 Steps. There is much evidence that when Bill W the founder of AA later wrote that the early AAs (the Alcoholic Squadron of the Oxford Group) had either 4 or 6 word of mouth Steps that was just his later interpretation and analysis of what had worked then, rather than a factual description of a concept of Steps that existed at the time. The Steps only came into being with the creation of the Big Book in 1939. So it was and is possible to get sober using the basic methodology of AA without 12 Steps and without AA literature. The main difference that the literature and Steps made was the unprecedented growth. It had originally taken 5 years to get 40 alcoholics sober, whereas by 1955, only 16 years later, there were nearly 6,000 groups and 150,000 recovered alcoholics.

It seems very clear to me that Bill W who created Big Book and the Steps did so in the light of his own understanding and culture. There is no question in my mind that someone qualified taking the same basic elements of recovery and expressing and developing them in Torah terms would come up with a different and almost certainly better system. Even if it were no better, at the very, very minimum it would be more culturally appropriate for Torah Jews. To my mind that would be the direct equivalent of what Bill W did in 1939 when he took the system of recovery that his Alcoholic squadron used and expressed it in 12 Steps.

There will, I believe, undoubtedly be some who will try to insist that the 12 Steps are what has worked and the Big Book is what has worked and if it is not broken one should not fix it. I suggest that they take note of these words in the Big Book,

"Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us."
(BB p.164 - A Vision for You)

But here we must be extremely careful. Bill W did not create the Steps on a notepad after his recovery in 1934. He created them after 5 years of having lead a movement that sobered 40 alcoholics. I encourage anyone who successfully creates groups that have sobered at least 40 alcoholics with a minimum of 5 years of experience who feels that he understands both AA history and the process of recovery to do the same. If Hashem gives me the merit of creating groups that are instrumental in a minimum of 40 recoveries with a minimum of 5 years of experience, then, if it is His will, I believe that with His help, at the appropriate time I would take the necessary action.

PostalServicio wrote on 22 Jun 2009 19:21:


Dear Postal

I would like to share with you and this forum an amazing experience I just had.  My seven year old daughter is going through a difficult time at school at the moment, both socially and academically.  This morning she made a massive tantrum that she is not going to school, refusing to eat breakfast and throwing her bag around.  In the car on the way to school she told me how sad she is that she does not have friends etc, I was able to sympathise with her and told her that I will speak to her teachers.

After she left the car a huge craving swept through me to act out.  My daughter is suffering, which is in turn causing me great emotional pain as a father.  I am also an addict and have pre-programmed to medicate myself whenever I face difficult situations  with acting out or food.  However what my program has taught me is that difficult feelings won’t kill me and I was able to sit through the craving until it passed then I experienced the sadness for my daughter and I cried for the first time today in  many many months.  I also phoned my sponsor and shared with him what had happened, not to get advice but just to share with another person who understands the way I work.  He encouraged me to pray for my daughter and told me as they say in AA “this too shall pass”.  I am so grateful today for my program that is giving me another choice, to be able to experience difficult situations without acting out.  There is no way I can do this on my own I need other people to constantly to fall on to give me strength for their encouragement.  Through this I can accept my situation and daven to Hashem that  his will not mine be done today.

bardichev,

What Post?! lol

Just Kidin

Reb Guard,

You are right, I will try to get work done (I don't think it will last very long, I'm an addict! to this site. I might have to stay off this site for 90 days.   lol) so if you don't see me that much don't worry I'm just working. but I really feel that I must help if I can. I know what I felt like when I am/was in the dumps & I just see it as a huge Zechus to try to help others out if I can.

Besides it gives me a boost as well.

P.S.
If you think you can't keep up now you better get a lot more help because unfortunately there are so many more Yiden out there that in a matter of time will hopefully find this Heiliger Beacon of Kedusha GYE website & to say that your hands will be full 24X6 is an understatement.

E.L.

Ninety,

Its very important like the Heiliger Guard says to Read the Guard your Eyes Handbook & Guard your Eyes Attitude books that you can find on the Home page.

Its the basics you need to start, & they really work if you actually follow what it says.

Its aint easy, but its easier then living the life I was living before I started on my road to recovery.

Keep on posting as it is essential to have the support and advice from so many Tzadikim on this site that went through and are going through the same you are or worse & yet are making great progress.

So lets go, jump on board!

Yes We Can!
Efshar Letaken

Dear pintele yid , aaron, etc.,

Pintele Yid wrote on 22 Jun 2009 20:57:


Pintele, et al., I agree 100% that the gemora is to be taken literally. It should apply in all circumstances. Still, it may be the "packaging" or our "approach" to Torah realities that really sets some addicts up for failure in controlling their problem using Torah.

Nevertheless, you, in my opinion, are missing something, here. That "something" is the basis for my beliefs that leiv nishbar is the main ingredient needed rather than "Torah" per se, and that an addict needs a change in approach to Torah for it to have any real useful meaning to him.

There are two parts to the 12 steps experience in recovery:

Part 1- quitting and not starting back up again (step one)

Part 2- learning how to live in such a way that the addict will never get so uncomfortable that he will need to use his drug, again. (all the other 11 steps)

Once a yid becomes an addict, he is no longer dealing with the yetzer hora AT ALL. And that is ultimately why Torah doesn't work for him.

All my correspondence about this Torah issue has been regarding the steps, ie.: recovery. The steps are part 2, and not for quitting. The last 11 steps are certainly in Torah and are ultimately (through the oxford movement) based on some Torah sources. The ikkar freedom experience of the "program", though, is not in these 11 steps. It is in the 1st. And that simple self-preservation isn't in Torah, at all. Rather, it is clearly a gift from Hashem into the individual addict directly. You cannot teach that.

For all of us who have not yet stopped, or still use our drug on a regular basis, I believe the pegamm is probably not with the 11 later steps. They are either simply not ready for them or need to work them all over again from scratch. Rather, the pegamm is mostlikely in their acceptance of true mental illness, physical illness, and spiritual illness. Step one has just not happened yet (or it keeps getting "taken back" for further "experimentation").
Torah and tefillah are not a tavlin for this person, at all, because his problem has nothing whatever to do with the yetzer hora any more.
Hashem tells us His Torah is the tavlin He made for the yetzer hora, not for the result of following it. The confusion resulting from the bashed-in head the addict got for a tryst with his female friend (whose husband discovered!) them will certainly not be healed by learning Torah.
Once I was addicted, whenever that occurred, my desire problem became a disease, like having my brain work differently than normal as the unfortunate result of getting my head bashed-in by that guy above, or - for a drug addict, getting a physical dependence on his drug (documented in gamblers, as well!).
Part of the problem here is that many pesukim refer to the YH as a "disease", RMBM (Sh"P) refers to bad middos as "illnesses", and we use that jargon all over the place because of the similarity to the human experience of physical illness. This blurs the lines, in my opinion, though I use it in my kavvanos in tefillah every day to my Eternal Best Friend, Hashem. This is not just a comparison, like Mishlei's "prostitute" meaning the YH for apostasy, rather, it is actually a real illness. This distinction is crucial.
But for the innocent, frum, early recovering addict it is mostlikely impossible to tease them apart. He may wish above all else NOT to be told he is mentally ill. "Hey, the YH is a badge of shame I can wear just like y'all do! Just don't call me a pervert, cause that means I'm really screwed up!" (And they'll say this in jail. I know, because I have been there with them.)
The next thing you know, even the addicts are conveniently convinced it was their YH all along, so all they have to do is "really learn and really daven."
AA seems to believe that "once an addict - always an addict". If I ever view my addiction as a personal weakness or a moral/religious struggle, I am dead. Really dead. Certainly you do not suggest that non-addicts can have any opinion whatsoever on whether AA is right or wrong in this yesod? Help me understand what is going on here, please, friends.
This was the main point in my first post on this forum a few months ago, and dayenu if it'll be my last point.
I love you and look forward to Hashem's gift of continued recovery together, each person according to his need. - Dov

tzaddik beleive me if i can you can too

there  is no magic here but try it will work

keep in touch
bardichev

When I came to this site I read posts of people describing their addictions to pornography and the like.

While I regulary viewed pornographic material I never considered myself an addict. I always thought I was able to stop cold turkey. Different stories I read over the past couple of weeks have ignited a spark in me and have caused me to want to reach 90 days of purity. However, today as I struggled and failed I realized that I really was not in control. It is just too hard. I guess I realize the first step to recovery. I know I am addicted and I will act accordingly.

All the best to everyone and thank you for this site.

ninetydays

aaron4 wrote on 22 Jun 2009 19:26:


aaron4,

I think the question, is very direct. Either Torah can be Tavlin for every level/degree of sickness, or it can't help in every level/degree of sickness. If we take the position that Torah can, then the obvious question is "why isn't it helping"?

You Dov and others have answered that it is not a problem with the Torah but a problem with the person who is sick. You are coming from different angles, but it is still the same line of reasoning. Pardon my stubborness, but if we follow this line of reasoning, then you are still left with the problem that Torah cannot heal sick people in all circumstances. This is not supported by the Gemorah that Torah is Tavlin and makes no exceptions of how sick a person is, or what he personally needs to get him out of it. Whether his problem is that he doesn't have lev nishbar, or he needs psychotherapy etc..., it doesn't make a difference, because all these reasons point to a deficiency in the person, and the Gemorah doesn't make any distinctions on what qualities a person needs to have for the Torah to be an effective Tavlin.

My reason is different because it doesn't focus on deficiencies in the Torah, Chas Vshalom or even the sickness. It focuses on the implementation - period. If you don't know how to implement what the Torah is offering, you can be as "healthy as a horse" but you will still fail. Therefore, the Chesuron is not in the Torah nor the person - just the implementation. Since to date, implemetation of the twelve steps within a Torah framework is non-existent, and we all agree that a real addict can in most circumstances can only be helped if he uses the 12 steps, how could anyone have been possibly successful using Torah to combat addiction?

It is precisely that reason why I suggested we develop an implementation of the Torah utilizing the twelve steps. Either start from the 12 steps and then find Torah (Tanach, Mishna, Medrash Zohar etc..) that fit with each step, or start with the relevant Torah concepts and then slot in where they step they are relevant to.

This will then give those addicts familiar with Torah concepts, a foothold into the twelve steps, and you would also have access to many more Rabbeim, educators etc... who would be more open to using them to deal with the issue correctly, instead of either saying they have no idea how to help you or worse, tell you the wrong thing.

Pintele,

First you say:



Then you say:



I don't think these are mutually exclusive.  It is precisely because someone is sick that they are unable to implement the Torah in the correct way.  If your emotional needs are not met, if you're in a negative environment that you cannot escape, and yet you're told 'learning is the only way!  If you're upset, go open a sefer!' then it's no surprise that for you, learning Torah will become a negative experience no matter how full of Kedusha is really is.  Once in this state, you're "sick".  You cannot relate to Torah properly, certainly not to address the very thing you used as an escape in order to alleviate the pain of learning (as experienced through the negative environment)!  And therefore it is impossible for Torah to be applied correctly.  Interestingly, although I believe the 12 steps works wonders to address addictive behavior, I don’t think it alone is sufficient to change the way you relate to Torah without recognizing the reason for the negative reaction and realizing for yourself that the problem was not with Torah but with you environment.  For this, one needs therapy.

One guy wrote me:

I have been going to the SLAA on line group for a year and have stayed sober that way. I have a goyisha sponsor who uses the AA big book and knows the program very well. According to your own progressive Tool format in the GYE Handbook (which makes a lot of sense), there are probably others like me in the community that don't need to take the risk of voice recognition. We are working the steps, getting sponsors and accountability partners on line; we have three meetings a day if we need it, and we can go on-line anytime between meetings for support or just to chat.

It's easy. You can do it right now. I just go to www.slaaonline.org. Then in the left column ("contents") I scroll down to the "Main Room" and click Canada Java (because I just have Java, but everyone says that the other one is faster and has color options -mIRC). Then you type in your screen name, say "Guard", and your email address, and when they don't recognize your name you'll be taken into a private room and they'll tell you that for the protection of our members they need to know if you are either a sex or a love addict? If you say that you are, then they'll let you into the meeting. The meetings are at 12pm, 4 (or 4:30pm) and 10 (or 10:30 pm Chassidisha) EST. At night we sometimes have 40 people in the room.

This is a great form of group support and learning the 12-Steps!

Dear Battleworn - I think pintele means that the problem is not in the Torah and Tefila but in the way they are approached or packaged. That needs to be altered for an addict to use them successfully.
This point has some validity. I have already said too much about this already to go on, now.
The ingredient we cannot lose or circumvent, though, is the leiv nishbar. For me, and I believe for others as well, it comes bedavka from recognizing that we need to sit in a room with a bunch of recovering perverts (mostly goyim and perhaps even in a church basement) because our illness.

    Wouldn't it be great to teach sexual purity to your children and NOT be a hypocrite? Sounds like a great idea. But, alas, if you are addicted to S & L, which means you have a medical condition, this wonderful logic won't work. In fact, no logic will work to help an addict. What to do? The first thing is you have to sincerely WANT to change for the better. No one is going to force you, including the Creator of the universe. As we learn in parshas shlach, Hashem allowed Moshe to send the spies, even though Hashem knew it would end in tragedy. So what do I do? You come to GUE, you call the weekly phone groups, you get a sponsor, you ride out the 90 days (not an easy task), and the addiction starts fading. It never completely goes away, but it doesn't exert so much pressure as it used to. Scared to call the phone group because someone will find out your phone number? Don't worry - it's done in a way that your phone number is not displayed. When I made my first call, I was so scared that I used a public phone booth. But after wasting many quarters I said to myself 'just use your cell phone and hide your #'. I didn't have to do that either. Elya even discovered my real name - how terrible! So get over the fear, and make the call. Way back at the beginning, it was not an addiction - the yetzer hara was a spider web - easily pushed away. But the more we fed it, the thicker it became - until it became as thick as a thick rope - not as easily pushed away anymore. Now we have to find a super-deluxe cutting implement to cut through that thick rope, so we don't have to be hypocrites anymore. Hatzlacha to everyone! Jack

Dear Postal - Ditto, Guard and London said it better than I could.

Questions:

Are you alone in this "fight"? Meaning, are the only other peoplewith you, us forum-people?

I ask because I'd never had gotten any sobriety had I been alone in any way. I needed fellow addicts, fellow losers-against-lust to see and talk to, daily. I would never have worked the steps alone. The tendency of most guys I meet (including myself) is
1-to deny they are actually out of control of their behavior, and
2-almost as soon as they have a period of sobriety they start to doubt, inside (where it counts), that they are still unable to struggle and win against lust. They thus renew their "lust license". The result is that they "fall". I have come to see that I have never had a problem with lust, and likely will never again, without first renewing my "lust license" subconsciously. I simply cannot struggle with lust at all. That means I have no business looking at or even thinking about things that will begin the struggle. Among them are: "hey, what wouldv'e happened if..." and "I wonder if she...", and other greatest hits, like "I know I could've beaten it last time if I wouldv'e just stopped after...instead of after...". Most of us apparently find we can't even afford to regret the past. "One day at a time" means that, too, you know...
If I was doing this w/o meetings, a sponsor, and daily contact w/other addicts, forget it. I'd have gotten permanently lost in the gaava of "I can beat this!(w/Hashem's help whatever that means)",  or "I'm better now", or "If I can't understand it, I won't try it", you know, stuff like that. I would still be trying to do it my way, and I'd certainly be dead by now. Really.
So consider reading the first couple of chapters of AA and see if your story is similar to Bill's (or read SA member stories in "Recovery Continues" - I recommend AA better)  because it was only possible for me to finally get better once I accepted that I was not just another guy with a real bad yetzer hora, but actually an addict, just like the drug addicts on the news. I consider it just another madreiga of "Leiv Nishbar veNidkeh Elokim Lo Sivzeh" - the heart needs to be broken when the ratzon is not enough.
Love,
Dov