Mordy-
I can relate very well to your position. I am a very similar kind of 'addict'. If not for halacha, i would not consider myself to have a problem at all. I can't give any advice that matches some of the more experienced people on this forum. I would suggest, however, that you don't allow the fear of what will be involved in getting better to stop you from trying. Start by taking the first steps including posting details on this site and possibly talking to Elya K or another sponsor if you have not already done so. Read the hand books. Take it one day at a time. People on this site will continue to give advice as long as you want. They have done so for me.

Wishing you much Hatzlacha.

I appreciate your investment in time, in order to help us all learn this Chazal, lemaaseh. You are right for going to one of the main sources for inspiration.
I will add a bit of Perush and some additional questions

1. The gemara is on Daf 52. A siman to remember the daf is that 52 is gimatria = BeHaMaH.
As Chazal Say in Sotah, about the Sotah woman: that her actions are like a BeHaMah and therefore her meal-offering is Barley, which is Animal food.So we see that going after the ways of the YH of illicit relationships is called being a BeHaMah.
This adds to my understanding of being addicted. As is pointed out many times on this site - when confronted by the nisayon - it is almost impossible for an addict to resist. He has NO free choice. This is what it feels like to be a BeHaMa, just animalistic nature with no thinking capabilities.
Obviously the addict has a choice whether to enter the whirlpool intentionally with the surety of being sucked in - or to Let Go & step away and around the YH.


2. The Great Eulogy is also interpreted as referring to the Moshiach ben Yosef being killed. This will be around the time of Moshiach ben Dovid, who is referred to later on. The physical aspects of the geulah, represented by Moshiach B. Yosef - will have reached their peak, and will need the infusion of the spiritual powers of Moshiach B Dovid in order to bring new, higher "life" to these material gains.

Similarly, the end of days, will be a time that the Yezer will no longer be needed. Hashem will Shecht him. The game is up! The YH was needed to enable free choice through battle with him. No Longer. The Tzaddikim can now rest (after they finish crying - which will help them internalize & appreciate their previous Avodas HaShem ).

3. Section #4. Some added questions:
What are the different aspects of Torah referred to as Water and Bread?
How does each one deal with the YH?
What do coals on the head of the YH mean? What happens to him?
The coals seems connected with section #9 where the Torah is compared to Fire
What does the YH contribute to me as a friend?

Thank you again

I was just looking through my paperwork to find a document, and I found a leaflet given out at one of the JSS (Jewish Spiritual Shabaton) weekends I attended, containing AA clich?s, which I will share a few as they made me smile:

 Anger is but one letter away from danger

 Before you say I can't........... say I'll try

 Change is a process not an event

 Don't quit before the miracle happens

 Every recovery from addiction began with one sober minute

 First we stayed sober because we have to... then we stay sober because we are willing to... finally we stay sober because we want to...

 Knowledge of "the answers" never made anyone slip - it was failing to practice "the answers" that were known

 (my favourite) - You need newcomers to tell you where you came from; old timers, to tell you where you can go, and a sponsor to tell you where you are at

 (another favourite) - A 12 step meeting is where losers get together to talk about their winnings

I would post more from this but I have a ton of work to do  next installment tomorrow  :D

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 08:04:


Dear Battle

A few years ago I sat with R' Zvi Baskt a Mashgiach in Gateshead, who has sent many people to 12 step fellowships, he told me that he has been through the 12 steps with R' Matisyohu Salomon and R' Matisyohu confirmed that there is no part of the 12 steps that is contrary to the Torah.

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 08:04:


This question is academic as this does not exist, as I posted yesterday - if Torah and mussar works then great if not the Gedolim of today have advised to use the 12 step fellowships.

Dearest Boruch and London,

Let's see if we can agree on a few things.

1) Breaking out of addiction is "Pikuach Nefesh".

2) The only system that has been known to work was always AA

I think those two statements are not negotiable, if you don't agree please tell me.

3) That being the case, OF-COURSE the Gedolim have been encouraging people to go. It doesn't mean that they studied the whole thing in depth and came to the conclusion that there's nothing in all the AA tradition that's contrary to Torah!

In fact it tells us nothing about SA that we didn't know before. All you can possibly prove from it, is that they (the Rabonim) have their heads screwed on straight. [And most of us knew that anyway]

Again, please let me know if you disagree.

4) Reb Boruch, I'm sure you agree (correct me if I'm wrong) that the reason R' Shteinman said to go, is not because SA was built out of experience, but rather because it was the only thing known to work.

So let me rephrase my question: If, say, R' Don Segal would come and say "I have found that lust addiction is a big problem in the frum community. So I was choiker vidoresh the sources and B'H I came up with a system that will definitely work for whoever tries."

What will you do?  A)Will you say it can't be because the big book says that you need experience?
                        B)Will you trust him because he's more worthy of your trust than the big book is?
                        C)Will you say that the big book is right for Goyim bur we have "Chochma Eloki"?
                       D)Will you say something else?

In addition to Reb Boruch, I address this question to all the 12 steppers. I'll be grateful to all those who answer.

Dear All,

Firstly I would like to thank you all for your responses.

As a little background information to know where I am holding, this is basically me;

The issue started early in highschool after being exposed to inappropriate material. Currently I am single and am in my young 20s. After highschool I spent a significant amount of time in a reputable Yeshiva and although I took that time very seriously, the issue that continued into my yeshiva life (albeit to a lesser extent) surely stunted my spiritual heights , it actually made me very upset at times. On numerous occasions I have tried and failed to stop this, yada yada yada, you've all heard that story at least 100 times before. That's basically me, no massive story.

There is much talk about how an addicts "addiction" controls his life until it is "unmanageable". Would I say that my life is "controlled" by this to the extent that my life has become "unmanageable"? I think not, but then again, it depends on what unmanageable means. If it means that one has desires and temptations when one wishes not to have them, then maybe my life is unmanageable, but, I doubt that's the meaining because then everyone would have unmanageable lives.

I believe that this issue really bothers me, mainly if not only because, I am what one would categorise as "frum". If not for my "frumkeit" I don't think I would make an issue out of the issue, it wouldn't really bother me. It is because of the grave sin involved that I am mostly concerned, if not for which, I would be living what most people in the 21st century of today would consider to be a normal lifestyle. 

I am currently living at home whilst studying in college. I have the internet at home and have in the past asked my father to password protect our computer so as to prevent my use. My father will not do it, it seems as if there is not much I can do about that. If you wish to suggest that I sit down with my parents and explain them my situation, please don't, all families are different and that advice shall not be heeded. I wish not to go into details about my family matsav, (it's nothing crazy, just maybe not the ideal that most would like to imagine).

I have been contemplating attendance at SA meetings. I just don't know that it is for me even though I can not stop (my longest streak that I can remember which was roughly 2 months ago, was 37 days(with the help of this site)). I would absolutely hate to have to go to one of those meetings, I can't tell you how much I would hate to go, and, the thought of having to go for the rest of my life? OY, R"SO!! Also, if it is not for me, it may create more damage - that worries me. Having said all that, from all which I have read on this forum and elsewhere, the only people that seem to be content and successful are those who have been to SA meetings, that's why it seems to me as if there is really no other option.

So, here I am today, a young bechelor that has tried time and time again, and, quite frankly am sick and tired of being a "loser". Is there a way to win? Please let me know!

Regards,

Mordy

Dear 90, the first step to recovery is ADMITTING that we are addicted. So welcome aboard!!

Please read the handbooks, and please join one of the new 12-Step groups starting soon. See this page.

Hi Mordy - It's so nice to read another "hello" from a yid who has actually gotten sick and tired enough of whatever to actually post on this site! When I came to the meeting-rooms of SA, I was so desperate to stop and salvage some control over my life, that it didn't occur to me how long I'd be attending meetings for. After about three months I decided that SA was working for me. That's when I decided to keep attending and working the steps until I felt I no longer needed to. Now I take it a day at a time and it has been nice discovering my life for the past eleven years. It is shocking how much waste of energy it took just to maintain a double life. The great life I was expecting (really demanding) to have before getting sober, was completely out of my reach because of my stupid addiction.
Anyhow, if you want to read my first post on this forum for part of my story you are welcome, of course. Whatever you do, it all depends on what you want: if your problem really began 10 or more years ago (or even just the roots of it), why expect it'd take only a few months or a year for you to really get better? If what you have now is not what you want, how valuable to you is living a really good life?
So, no - there is certainly no lifelong commitment, but I bet you have a personal lifelong commitment to living a better life, and that is all that matters.

Finally Mordy, I challenge you to reevaluate whether your problem is "boredom", or not. Some of us engage in our habit because we simply believe it is the only way we can really trust to feel good :o. Maybe you'll discover some stuff you don't expect in the meetings or on this forum. Who knows? Hey, it's not as predictably useless and upsetting as you-know-what.

this morning I met a pre-war  Talmid Chochom, an elderly Tzadik whom i said to  "please give me some chizuk?" he replied  "u want chizuk? say a hundred brachos everyday".

this is how this YID explained it to me - if every time a Jew says the words 

ברוך אתה ה Blessed are You Hashem
and pays attention to what he is saying - You Hashem are THE source of absolutely everything, from the coffee i"m about to drink to the pastrami on club I"m about to bite into  :D :D(not at the same time) :D :D :D
its coming from You Hashem,  directly to little me with the greatest of LOVE!!!!!

אלוקינו our Hashem

השגחה פרטית MY HASHEM
I have to ask myself "what does this mean to me personally?

even the angels מיכאל וגבריאל  cant say אלוקינו only the immortal Jew has the great awesome zchiya to say this one hundred times a day at least.
(more if you are a קאווא איד and also a pastrami Jew  (a little milseh d'bdecheesah to be mesamaich for the olam!!)

so when the Jew, I, repeat to myself over and over and over these awesome messages that are contained in the brachos, (even according to my little understanding of them), how powerful and awesome of a message am i telling myself? !!!
this is how we can understand the POWER and the secret  of the segulah of  מאה ברכות בכל יום a hundred daily blessings>



and now to relate to our battle and to tie this in as a tool to fight the addiction _ the  מאה ברכות בכל יום [hundred daily blessings} gives us a greater awareness and connection to Hashem that we can, with more realism speak to Him and give over "our addiction to Him". but  without any "real" connection to Hashem its mere lip service our giving up to Hashem the battle.

Torah [u]and[/u] the 12 Steps
NB
Thanks EL for being an additional מעורר to this powerful segula  in the name of הרה''צ ר יעקב מאיר שכטר שליטא

Guard and Bardichev - Thank you for your replies.

I have contacted the 12step programme - I'm awaiting info as we speak. Looking forward to being in "active recovery"

On the other hand -


I'm looking forward to the pay off (on this world). I am worried because I have fallen at this stage numerous times before. Getting past 10 days seems particularly difficult. The inertia of starting well wears off, the depression of kicking an addiction sets in and the combination is deadly. Any suggestions anyone?

I have a partner that I discuss these things with who provides reliable and frequent support.

Currently I have 7 full days of cleanliness - my last attempt was almost 9.

guardureyes wrote on 23 Jun 2009 10:54:


My personal belief is that almost everyone who goes voluntarily to an SA group will be unable to remain sober without continued meetings, addict or not. The addict needs to work the Steps while the non-addict can just use the tools of meetings, fellowship, literature and other tools.

Mordy, Boruch is talking about someone who is a real "addict". I do not know if that is your situation.

Mordy wrote on 23 Jun 2009 01:23:


Addiction is like diabetes - it is a chronic condition. There is no cure, only a daily maintenance. So the Steps have to be worked every day for continued sobriety. Step 12 means helping other sex addicts, and there is no better way than doing this through continued attendance of meetings. Roy K, the founder of SA writes, that if he were to forget his own story he would "go back out there and try and lust like a gentleman (lusting in moderation)". If, after the hundreds of thousands of addicts he has helped, he feels that he still needs to remember where he came from, it is certainly true for the rest of us. There is no better way of remembering where one came from, than by attending groups. I personally believe an argument I have heard, that any addict who stops group attendance will sooner or later stop doing the Steps.

As to how many meetings one needs, I believe that in the long term, 1-2 meetings a week should be enough if you work a good program. The key is to work the 12 Steps. The 12 Steps are the program, and their implementation is described in the literature, and they should be taken with either a group, sponsor or both.

Hi Mordy, welcome to our community. Please see this post and download the handbooks. They are the foundation of our community, and they contain much advice on beating this addiction, as well as advice on the 12-Step groups.

To answer your good questions:




I do not know your exact situation, but the only lifelong commitment we need to aim for is "sobriety". If you join the groups for a few months or a year and feel "recovered" for life, then no need to continue with the groups. If, however, the pattern of falls continues, or if you realize you have an illness that is not going away, you may need to continue in the groups for as long as it takes to keep you "safe". The 12-Steps also teach us, that the best insurance for long term sobriety is to continue helping others. So even if you feel strong enough to leave the groups one day, it is advisable to continue helping others for the long-term. But again, it's up to you and your state of recovery.

To find an SA group near you, see here.

May I perhaps suggest though, that for starters you might want to try out one of our new anonymous 12-Step phone groups starting hopefully next week. (See this page).




By being in "active recovery", joining meetings, getting a sponsor and helping others, and by learning the secrets of the 12-Steps - which teach us how to "think right and live right", you will learn how to feel comfortable enough in your life to not have to reach for your "drug" when feeling bored, stressed, anxious or vulnerable, as you did in the past.

London wrote on 23 Jun 2009 10:17:


I went for years of therapy and my last therapist of eight months told me that his only achievement was persuading me to go to SA. My SA Step 10 motivated me to join OA for my food issue and my SA Step 10 and SA Step 11 Guidance motivated me to join DA for my money issue. Hashem sent me to a sponsor with the right message and my sanity returned. I was able to go off my therapy and medication and I am calmer and happier than ever. That is a solution that I got only because Hashem sent me to the right SA sponsor.