phil heilger tzaddik

koidim kol you are not talking into thin air this sie is testimony to KOL YISROEL AREVIM

second of all here is a itsy bitsy secret (keep it secret) bardichev (thats me) is a very humble SB(shalom bayis) expert

feel free to pm me i will bli neder get back to you

For myself while I was in the heat of  my addiction I THOUGHT my SB was perfect

only when I started to work the way out of my addiction ( I stopped cold turkey pun intended) did I realize how I was TOTALLY self centered

I have some EITZOS but NO magic wand

hatzlacha

bardichev

Thought airing time is crucial. I wish the thoughts that came out would make sense. Working this thread is weird - it feels like I'm talking to thin air - even with responses from dedicated moderators. It's rather refreshing actually.

So for the moment, I'm going to write a letter to myself. Anyone who reads it though should feel free to comment/disagree/ignore/

Dear Philpher, (amoosh)

My mind at the moment is torn between two concerns. My primary battle is not my addiction. (Am I the first person to have said this on the forum?) It is true, that removing the addiction is crucial. It is more true, that the new methods I have been using to combat the addiction have been far more successful than I dared imagine. It is even better that the results are more worthwhile than I could believe, in avodas Hashem, in learning, in tefilla.. the list is too long. But the difficulty that faces me most is from a different source.

B"h I am married with some kids. But although the sholom bayis is reasonably stable, the difficulties that my bayis has to struggle with are overwhelming. Both for her, and obviously for me. My emotional energy is finite (although I know Hashem can alter these things - v'Kovei hashem yachalifu koach) - or at least when it seems to be finite, is the time when my urge to indulge my addiction returns.

It seems that clearing up the addiction is so obviously connected to the other issues, which are primarily beyond my control (health/relatives/finances.....(add your own) that I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Clearing the addiction certainly helps simplify everything. But it seems to be constantly superseded by all the other concerns.

Yours,

Philpher.

r guard is on the money, as always. If something is forbidden and we do it anyway, then our lives, by definition, are unmanageable. Doing something against the Torah is going against the essence of what G-d wants a human being to be. Having a sickness does NOT release us from responsibility to heal that sickness, as some people erroneously think. Having a sickness means we MUST seek treatment - there are no excuses. We will be held accountable for not seeking treatment! Success? WE hope so. But Hashem wants us to try, to put our efforts in. The yetzer hara starts out like a spiders web, the more we feed it, the thicker it grows. By the time the addiction sets in, it is like a thick rope. By that time, we need more than just learning and mussar - we need what is available in the velt at that time, and at this time, it is the group support and the 12 steps. They are an ingenious tool, just like doing a heart transplant on someone who suffers from heart disease.
As far as the titles, I'm not a rabbi or the son of a rabbi, and i am FAR from perfect. I went trhough he-- in my life and I am 50 and still trying to overcome and undo the effects from those bad times. Finding GUE was another step in that direction.

Let me pose another issue I am having and I would appreciate anyone who has advice as to how I should go about dealing with this situation.

My wife has a job that requires her to own a laptop and her employer provides the laptop for her. Because of the administrative restrictions she and in turn I cannot download any programs onto the computer (i,e, k9 or covenant eyes). I ask her constantly to please put the computer away as I dont want to waste time on it. She has no idea that I view porn and the like as I am more tech savvy than her. My complaint to her is that I waste time and I would spend my hours in a more productive setting if the internet was unavailable from home.

Her response;

The internet is everywhere. Its more important to work on yourself than to remove internet from the house. When the kids get older we will get rid of it because "you know how dangerous the internet is for kids". Ha!!

While I cant tell her I am addicted I want to convince her to get rid of it. Keep it out of the house. I dont want it. I have it at work but that is not a struggle for me because I am surrounded by employees. Thank G-d for the cubicle.

Please any advice as to how to approach this serious subject with my wife .. ..

There are various levels of addiction. For those who want to stop because it's "wrong" and because it's a "Yetzer Hara" issue, then maybe more Torah and Mussar will be able to help them stop, really. And even if not, there are 13 tools in the handbooks before coming to the 12-Steps at all.

But, if it has become a sickness, as today's chizuk e-mail talks about (#512), then we will need the 12-Steps as the best medicine currently known to mankind for this sickness. You ask, why stop if it's a sickness? That's like asking "why get cured from cancer?" This sickness will destroy us. And although Hashem may not judge us for our "disease", he will judge us for why we didn't go for "treatment"!

Recovery is 100% our responsibility.

As the 12-Step books say:

- will power alone, is not effective in dealing with the complex problem of sex addiction
- powerless does not mean helpless.
- powerless is never an excuse to continue
- we are responsible for our recovery

Reb Jack shlito"h (I honestly feel that you deserve that title and more). I have a question on your mehalech. There are quite a lot of people here on the forum that there's lives never even came close to being unmanageable. The only reason they tried so hard to stop and searched for help is because they knew that what they were doing is forbidden. So I ask you, if it's only a sickness why bother stopping?  

Dear Moshe, welcome to the great discussion!




Please read the Ohr Hachayim Hakadosh here. It seems like he's talking about addiction to me! He directly addresses the complete powerlessness that a person who is involved with lust will experience. But he suggests an answer to this problem in a way that only suited his day and age. He suggests that the only way to succeed is by completely stopping to see and think about sexual matters. However, if the Ohr Hachayim had lived in our generation where this is almost impossible, and where the entire world's sewage is available with a click of the mouse, he may have come up with a 12-Step program, who knows?   And he also does touch upon the core of the 12-Steps, which is that it is ONLY Hashem who can fight for us, not our own will power... This Ohr Hachayim will blow you away. Definitely worth a read!




The Tzetel Katan of the great Chassidic master, R’ Elimelech of Lizentzk states:

One should relate before one’s teacher, who instructs him in the way of HaShem, or even before a good friend, all of one's thoughts that are contrary to the Holy Torah that the Yetzer HaRah causes to arise in his mind or heart. [Whether they occur] when he is learning Torah, praying, sitting in his bed, or during the day. And one should not withhold anything because of shame. He will find that by relating these things, he will gain the power to break the strength of the Yetzer HaRah so that it will no longer be able to overcome him other times. This is in addition to the good advice that he will receive from his friend in the ways of Hashem. And this is a wonderful remedy.

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 14:40:


Group as Higher Power is not idolatry. It just means that the addict has to surrender that the group as a whole is wiser than he is and follow their instructions and not his own desires.

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 14:40:


I believe that there is no problem whatsoever with the original and early Orthodox AA. I believe that all the problems are an outgrowth of modern and later AA.

The venue of the meetings is neither here nor there and in my opinion is just an excuse to make a big deal over nothing whatsoever. Bemokom tzorech there is no question that classrooms or the like are a permissible venue for a meeting. In my opinion anyone who suggests otherwise is knowingly or unknowingly subscribing to chassidus of the Chosid shotteh.

The problem with some of the ideas and attitudes of modern and later AA is a problem that can be fixed.

That said there is nothing at all wrong with looking for a Torah approach as long as no-one is held hostage waiting for such an approach to be formulated and to get significant enough results. So for those who want to exclusively use the religious non-AA methods described on this site, I would say if you believe that is what you should be doing then go ahead with maximum hatzlocho.

I today have a very good inkling of what my own Torah approach would be, however for myself I will not trust it at all and will not even discuss it until I have the significant amount of experience referred to earlier in this thread.

Those of us that like myself were persuaded of the need to use the 12 Steps, can in my opinion do so lechatchila ulechol hadeios if they follow a traditionalist model such as the Back to Basics model that I got from my sponsor.

here is my answer to you.the torah was not meant as healing for sickness.it was meant as a spiritual guide to make us better in morality and ethics, more than any other system that exists.when it says hafoch bo vahafoch bo d'kule bo, in my humble opinion, this does NOT refer to sickness.that means everything moral and ethical is in it, and absolutely nowhere else.but you want to learn how to be a brain surgeon? you wont find it. you have to go to medical school.in the yeshivos they dont teach brain surgery.and in the yeshivos they dont teach about addictions. One person told me that he went to a BIG godol and asked him about addictions. He said 'just stop'. This is no surprise, or a fault, chas vshalom. It is because they dont learn about addictions in yeshiva- for that you go to a doctor. And many times the psak of a rabbi will be 'what does the doctor say?' imagine that! the rabbi asks what does the doctor say! and on that he bases his psak.so, don't be surprised that addictions and sicknesses are not dealt with in the torah, because that's not what the torah is there for.

Dear moshF, welcome home this is where you belong. By all means keep going. As far as avoda zora is concerned, I was actually wondering about the factions that make the group their "higher power" if that actually may be avoda zora. But I hope you're not with those guys.




If it was piku'ach nefesh you would!




This is just my personal take on the matter: When Amora'im said "ייתי ולא אחמיניה " they were refering to things like this. Because for sure the secrets were hidden in the Torah but it wasn't revealed. I believe that in our generation it was largely revealed, but it still needs to be organized and spread around. The handbooks are a beginning, did you see them?




Among "chaburos" of "ovdim" it's been common practice for at least a few hundred years. I think R' Elimelech mentions it.

MosheF wrote on 24 Jun 2009 14:16:


In general, as explained in Rambam Hilchos Teshuva anyone who does aveiros in public has to admit them in public and anyone who does them in private should not disclose them to others. However as explained in Bill W's "12 Steps and 12 traditions" on Step 5 experience showed again and again that any addict who did not admit to at least one human being did not stay sober. The reasons why an addict needs to admit are explained there in 12 and 12. But what is relevant is that it is obvious to anyone that if experience has shown that an addict has to admit to at least one other person to stay sober there is no question whatsoever that al pi Torah it is mandatory.

I’m going to add my two cents to this important debate, as a member of the 12 step program, I believe that regardless of who is correct in this debate I have no choice but to continue working the steps unless a better solution is found in yiddishkeit (unless of course following this program is considered avoda zora (iv’e heard that), then I would have to stop going).  For too many years I have acted out because I didn’t believe in this program and refused to attend meetings.

However, what bothers me most about 12 step vs. Yiddishkeit is the fact that I am learning how to be a yid 24/7, how to have emunah peshuta, how to daven, believe in hashgacha pratis etc.  from non-Jews, from a program created by Christians using their concepts.  I wouldn’t send my kids to the local church group to learn basics in yiddishkeit even if we share mutual ideas and they won’t impose their god on my kids.

I wish there was a solution in yiddishkeit but to the best of my knowledge there is none. There is hardly mention of the concept of addiction or a solution in chazal or mussar seforim.  This begs for an explanation that I don’t have.  Dr. Twersky responds to one such question here http://www.guardureyes.com/GUE/Tips/12StepsQuest.asp “Whereas forbidden sexual activity certainly occurred, I doubt that the phenomenon of sexual addiction was ever brought to the attention of the authors of sifrei mussar.”  I have a hard time accepting this answer because Chazal understood the human physcology and yetzer hora extremely well and they didn’t have to be told about a phenomenon to write about it!

It may also be true that all of the 12 steps can be found in the torah, the only thing I believe  clearly is not in the torah is to admit your shortcomings (aveiros) to another human being (and your group). Vidduy is between you and Hashem and nowhere that I am aware of does it say you should admit your aveirus on yom kippur to another human being.  I assume this was taken from other religious where confessions are practiced or it may simply be a physiological benefit.

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 13:47:


The main reason, aside from experience, that one addict can help another as no other can, is that an addict will fail to listen to non-addicts by rationalizing that the non-addict cannot and does not understand. So Rav Don Segal could create the ideal system but no-one could give that system over like one alcoholic to another.

Today is Bar-Mitzva - 13
This reminds me of the happiness of the event.
But did I use my budding physical maturity wisely?

I had been masturbating even before I could ejaculate. I am not sure - But I think a goyish maid of the family - did some sexual things to me when I was really small, and I don't even remember. This went on for years, with w\o porn that I got my hands on, or in my head.
Even going to Yeshiva and realizeing this was bad - didn't help. I also had a girlfriend...
I finally stopped masturbating after one year in Yeshiva - aged 19, when I got raw, and somehow decided that was it.
Since then BH I have never done it! 28 Years! I had years of tremendous yissurim with getting all these memories and urges out of my mind - but I never stimulated myself physically.

I am very thankful.

However, about 9-10 years ago, I fell into a pattern of looking at P*** on the internet, once is a while, which gradually got worse, and for longer periods. Most of the time I was able to watch my eyes on the street! But would fall on the screen. Crazy?
I used to fall while checking out what my son's or students got into, and then shamefully would go myself.
The reply about being an addict gives me a ptur from policing whats going on around me - was very helpful - it helped m yesterday
The p*** no longer really excited me, but I found it hard to break off - sometimes a week or months, and sometimes every day.


Sometimes I think about how HaShem has entrusted all of us with an unfiltered internet - our minds and eyes,
along with some heavy heavy SurroundExperience effects - like the sexual sensations that can are so strong, especially for a young man!

Would I give this type of thing to my son? Even if I warn him about the dangers - he doesn't really know what I am talking about until he discovers it for himself.
Like the story in the gemara: what can the boy do and NOT sin?

Add to that, most every single one of us - doesn't have the emotional & spiritual relationship with anyone wiser in order to advise him on these issues, and most of us will never have!

This almost inevitable downfall gives me some solace, in knowing that I am not alone, and that HaShem wants us to find him for ourselves - from within our own bodies - Mibsari Echaze Eloka
As I heard:
It is not for naught that every father cries out at the bris of his son:
"Ana HaShem Hoshiya Na, Ana HaSHem Hatzlicha Na"
will my son have the courage, wisdom and emotional stability to keep his bris tahor?

It makes me humble.

It also motivates me to help youngsters be aware of the pitfalls and try to be there for them with love and acceptance. To give them good guidelines and warmth - so the won't feel like looking for "warmth" from the fake fire of the YH. This is not at all easy as anyone with kids or student knows.

This is truly a hard universal battle.

This site is a great beginning. Thanks for sharing I spent this afternoon on the site, and this kept my free time from being used badly, adraba - I grew from reading about your struggles, and ezus, and contributing what I can.
Thanks

battleworn wrote on 24 Jun 2009 08:04:


None of the above. I will simply say that if any godol says that he has a system then it is certainly worth a try.

If HoRav Don Segal Shlit"a said that he had discovered the best system for an oil change I would look into it. But having not heard any claims on oil changes from gedolim I would not go from godol to godol asking about oil changes. The same is true for addiction. I have heard no claims that the gedolim have any system for overcoming addiction and unless I hear otherwise I do not expect that there is one.