battleworn wrote on 25 Jun 2009 15:22:


Battle

I would like to bring a quote from the AA Big Book page 30 "Most of us have been unwilling to admit we were real alcoholics. No person likes to think he is bodily and mentally different from his fellows. Therefore, it is not surprising that our drinking careers have been characterized by countless vain attempts to prove we could drink like other people. The idea that somehow, someday he will control and enjoy his drinking is the great obsession of every abnormal drinker. The persistence of this illusion is astonishing. Many pursue it into the gates of insanity or death.

We learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost selves that we were alcoholics. This is the first step in recovery. The delusion that we are like other people, or presently may be, has to be smashed.”

A sponsor is someone we can talk to and check in any situations in life that we are going through to make sure that our addictive thinking is not getting in the way.  Addicts have an ingenous ability of justification, and the sponsor is there to ensure that we are not falling into this trap.  Addicts can pull the wool over most peoples eyes except another addict one of my sponsors told me that you cannot BS a BS'er (excuse my French). Where in our comunity is there such a support system available.

I would like to make a suggestion to you dear Battle, it is well known that when ever we find fault in another we have to look at ourselves, there is clearly something here that is bothering you and no answer posted on this forum has satisfied you.  I am not taking your inventory or judging you CV, however I would like to encourage you to look into yourself and try to see your part in this.

Let me know what you think.

London

boruch wrote on 24 Jun 2009 23:12:


battleworn wrote on 25 Jun 2009 09:17:


Battleworn, I have to thank because without you there would be no discussion and I really want to get the bottom of this. 

The point of my post was that the 12 steps does not make a person more religious and I liked that because then it doesn't have to bother me that I’m working on becoming a good Jew through a non-jewish program.  All the groups were doing is making my life manageable again so I could do what I want with that life. 

Boruch, you seem to imply that you want more religion in the groups, seems the opposite of what I want.  If they were to preach religion it would be JC and his group and that is the last thing I want.  Battleworn, you also seem to want religion in the rooms but orthodox Judaism, not gonna happen anytime soon but the mubo-jumbo nonsense is good because that separates the groups from religion so we can work on our addiction not on our religion.


guardureyes wrote on 25 Jun 2009 13:30:


Wow, what a dance that was , Dov, your post are always beautiful and well written.

guardureyes wrote on 25 Jun 2009 12:57:


I can't talk for Dov (he's an amazing guy, I could tell from his posts!), but you touched on a core point that bothers me about the 12 step program.  Most frum yidden at the groups seem to see themselves just like the rest of them not believing for a second they are any different, what happened to us as yidden, bnei avrohom yitzchok v'yaakov, yiddishkeit is all about being different and having a special relationship with Hashem, in these meeting you have the same relationship with hashem as the guy next to you has with Yoshke. I hope you get my point.

Hi Battleworn! It is hard to get to know someone just from posts, but I am doing the best i can to understand where you are coming from and respond for both our benefits, and maybe for that of others, too.

What I am about to share with you is not tooting my horn, at all, with Hashem's help. It is to let people who may not understand become aware of what it is like for this sexaholic yid to have a roman catholic sponsor and still be going tomeetings and using the steps while in the twelfth year of Hashem's gift to me of recovery from all-consuming addiction to lust.

Before and during the years i was acting out i was exposed to yiddishkeit (product of modern orthodox day school, yeshiva high, etc) and always a bit attracted to the frum, feeling there was an answer there, to something...
I cried at NCSY singalongs and felt a strong "deveikus"-like thing in me; went to eretz yisroel to yeshivah after high, and stopped masturbating for two years except one or two times during the summer while at home in the US. When I got married it got much worse, as I described a bit in my first post on this forum in May, or whatever. Look at it if you want to get to know me any better...I'd be glad to describe the details of my behaviors in addiction privately, if you'd like, but this is not the best venue for the gory details.
Anyhow, after starting SA in 1997 and fast forwarding to my past five years, as my avodah began to warm up. I was still going to meetings and using the steps I had worked, in daily life. My sponsor shared how he worked them with me. He is now more of a friend than a "sponsor" (as his sponsor now is to him). I have many program friends, sponsees, etc., and get and make recovery calls many times through the day. I do not see any advantage in pretending I got back on some kind of track and am OK now, because I have experienced that my allergy has not gone away. I am free of lust almost all the time and my focus is on living with Hashem, as i'll elaborate on in a bit. I go to one meeting a week.
Over the past 6-7 years my avoda got a boost from my finally going deeper into sfas emes, bnei yisoschar, and divrei chayim. This occurred around the same time I had a little trouble with lust and finally started to work the steps in daily life more seriously. Gemorah and TU"R has become more of a success over the past three years since I joined a Dirshu morning program (initially w/a SA chavrusa!).
I B'H gravitated toward kisvei ARIz"l with a chevra learning them in my neighborhood and began finding deep meaning in my davening. This is inconsonance with programmie concepts, as well, Boruch Hashem. This was bolstered w/shaarei RMCHL x 3 years, now; my chavrusa and I should be moving to KL"CH soon, Be"H. I was moved to start wearing Rabeinu Tam tefilin about a year ago and find going to the mikvah a great experience. (Though I look forward to one day keeping takonas ezra for tefilah, I'm not ready for that, yet.) I ask a tzadik in my neighborhood for advice regularly and surrounded myself with experts on chumash, mussar and kabollah as much as possible. For the past two years I have been going through much of the Shelo hakodosh on the parsha and sharing ideas from him w/friends and family when I can. My physical relationship with my wife, as well as my relationship with all people has been growing in ways that I see described in the seforim, thank G-d, and it is exhilirating. I am mostly able to be motivated by being useful, rather than by getting/taking. Enough said there.
My experience (which my wife -being very stable - does not understand) has been that: either I grow and change, broadening and deepening in avodah, or there is no point in it. I feel like "a horse running bevitz'ei hamayim" as the medrash describes Avraham Avinu - NOT to say I am like him at all, just that as he felt tremendous drive to mesaken more and more in the world and advance Kevod Shomayim, so do I percieve a force more powerful than I can understand drawing me closer to Hashem. Still, I feel at peace most of the time. Because of being awakened by the steps I want above all else to live with and be useful to people, more than ever before, yet be alone with Hashem all the time. My formerly very self-centered avodah never allowed me to do that, even though I was convinced I was a "kodosh". In fact, before, the idea that I am be'etzem a kodosh was a tremendous ball and chain for me. It made failure so much more dissapointing. And please consider not assuming that "if only someone would have explained to me what it really means I'd have been "OK"". That is not my experience. For most sexaholics and alcoholics I know, the holier they think they are the worse and more depressed or pompous they get. I know what you really mean, I just believe you can TELL addicts about it (or even convince them that they SHOULD believe it) but you cannot CONVINCE them it is really true. This is a concept non-addicts do not ever seem to grasp. (I do not refer to you specifically, Battleworn, as I don't really know your story, but I hope it's helpful anyway.)
Finally, I have been able, for the most part, to avoid looking at "normal" yidden who do not seem to need the depth and intensity of a relationship w/Hashem as unfortunate. I also avoid shoving my percieved awareness in their face by asking them why they say berachos in a rush as opposed to they way we'd say "thank-you" to anyone real. You know, stuff like that. I have seen others give this "mussar" as though it's their own. It is not pretty, and it's unhealthy to pretend I deserve any awarenesses I got through addiction/recovery - they were all free gifts and will stay that way. I assume I'll lose them (with my sobriety if I forget that acting like they are "ubesoraso - mine").

So I ask you, what more should i expect from myself, a sexaholic? I am sure we can all do better, me most of all folks. But do you really still think i need to be cried for and that the fact that I look up to a roman catholic man for sharing his sanity with me is hindering me? Do we understand eachother any better? And if you still feel the same, do please continue the tefillos - maybe it'll help! Hashem is not done w/me yet!

Finally, I do not accept that my addiction was aveiros and the YH, as you are describing it. I have tried to explain this in other posts but I respect fully your opinion. I choose to just live right today, and rely on Hashem to make the tikunim. It is clear that recovery has lead me on what - in retrospect - the sforim describe as teshuvah. i choose not to "understand" the process that much and leave it to Hashem.

I admit I'm a little uncomfortable stepping in here. I am a newbie, on the wrong side of the mechitza, and am far from knowledgeable about the steps. But my conscience won't let me sit by the side.

I have no intention of getting into the nitty gritty of the issue at hand (although do have a personal opinion). What is bothering my A LOT is the tone this thread has taken. Aren't we all here for the sake of personal growth and to help each other? Have I missed a point somewhere? If Im not mistaken, we're in this galus not because of pritzus, erva or any other addiction synonym. Im pretty sure chazal say that sinas chinam got us into this mess to begin with, and sinas chinam is keeping us here. How many talmidim did Rabi Akiva lose? 24 000 = 700 each day! Hashem wasn't playing games trying to get His message across that lack of respect for each other bothers Him more than just a tad!

Differences of opinion are fine, as long as we can be respectful and mentchim about it. It seems to me that certain members have lost their objectivity.  It's no longer l'shem shamayim.

Please; I beg of you, lets all remember why we are here. Every neshama has it's own journey down here. Why would we think that each will be taking the same path back home? What works for one doesn't have to work for the other - and that is fine. As long as we can respect our differences, and help each other grow closer to the Borei Olam.

7up

I'm a bit suprised that someone of you're caliber somehow forgot that if you don't know your kochos then they're useless.[I regret that I wrote that, as it is inappropriate and disrespectful]

BattleNEVERWorn, you don't think what Dov and London are writing here is giving Hashem tremendous Nachas Ruach? What makes you think that the future of Klal Yisrael depends only on coming up with a new system based on Torah? Maybe for the non-hardcore-addicts, yes... (for that, see tools #1-13 in the handbooks)... But for the level 3 addicts, Klal Yisrael depends just as much on guys like Dov and London passing on these truths to other suffering addicts, people who have lost their "soul connection" to Yiddishkeit... by letting them know there is hope!

Battle, I would make you the Rosh yeshiva of the non-addicts of GYE any day, but I'd make London and Dov the captains of the REAL addicts in GYE!

Dov

I thank you from the depths of my heart for that answer, as this is my story exactly.  But after being in recovery for 4 years the ice is slowly starting to thaw and my desire to be a true eved Hashem is increasing.  My recovery process has given me a firm foundation on which to build on.  I would add that working the steps are a major part of this process, for me when I came in to the program I had major resentments with the system.  After doing my step 4 & 5 and getting closure on these issues, being forced to look at my part in the resentments was I able to start building on my religion again.  Growing up I often felt that I had no choice with my Yidishkeit, that this is what is expected of me this is what you do no questions asked.  After going into recovery I am now rebuilding within me a true connection, today I have the choice.  I was discussing this point with a member today he shared with me a victory he had over lust and he told me that the program gives him his "bechiro back" as when he was acting out he had no choice he was a slave to his addiction today he has the choice not to act out, he was sharing how when he was acting out he felt so inhuman and how recovery has given him his humanity back.

It is then no wonder that during addiction and early recovery our religion will suffer but as we keep trudging the road of recovery and keep getting victory over lust we start to feel like humnan beings and not animals, after all the only difference between man and animal is choice, so today in recovery I am given the choice to do the next right thing.  Recovery is a process not an event, and because my acting out is a misplaced connection, recovery will give me back that connection to Hashem, and my Yiddishkeit will flourish.

This is so beautifully profound! Deeper than deep! It answers this known phenonmenon (that Moshe describes of feeling cold in yiddishkeit while in recovery) - better than I ever could!

Moshe, Moshe, read this again and again and start to dance!!

An interesting phenomena was reported to me by Jews for Judaism professional Motty Berger. He said that after successfully "deprogramming" a jew for yoshke, they never become frum. "Hey - wait a minute! You accepted the "new testament" after a yoshke guy "proved" it to you from verses in the Torah/na"ch. So you clearly accepted the idea (as they do) of Torah-min-hashamatim, no? So why are you dropping it (the Torah) now?"

Clearly there was a negiyah that got these people to accept the yoshke stuff "based" on the Torah. They never really had full faith in the Torah to begin with, and still do not. Same here: The aspects of an addict's avodah that were fake or mostly due to negios (approval, people expecting it of him, fear of retribution, etc.) tend to fall away for anyone in true recovery. Boruch Hashem! Now they can start to work from honesty.

MosheF wrote on 24 Jun 2009 21:21:


Dear reb Moshe,
You really started something - yasher koach! The thread seems to have addressed your issue of decreased depth in avoda as something that has some bearing on the 12 steps in general. You also mention at the end of your (beautiful) post that the steps do not seem to make people tzadikim. I presume you mean it doesn't seem to reflect onto their avodas Hashem in as positive a way as you'd expect from any "spiritual" program. In fact, sometimes they seem to do less mitzvos/avodah than they did before sobriety. I agree with you.
As I have posted before, I had a very upsetting coldness in my avodas Hashem during the first two years or so of my recovery in the program. So, I can relate. First let me share that things are much different for me now, as - after growing into my 11th step and being sober for a while by Hashem's grace, my avodah has been steadily increasing. I feel the quality of my faith, as well as the avodah I am fortunate to be able to do is far more than it ever was. If you want me to detail this for you more, I will in a personal message. So hang in there and trust Hashem that if you really want a close relationship w/Him and know what that means, that He will grow your avodah, together with you over time. Also, consider not looking as much at others (I have found that very helpful - "ein malchus (asiya) nogaas bechaverta afilu Kemolei neema", shteyt!.
A few basic additional points:
One, it may be far better that a yid is putting on tefilin less and doing less mitzvos but is clean from acting out. The chillul Hashem and personal gehinom that many addicts go through is a decent trade off for freedom even at a lower madreiga, it seems to me. People who stop often feel this way, and also the ones I meet who don't stop, when they finally end up in the toilet.
Two, lets be honest. The quality of our faith is definitely lacking in some way if we are looking and porn and masturbating, or worse.
As you posted:


It is likely that some of the mitzvos an addict does while inactive addiction are like the old story of the guilty husband bringing home flowers to his (oblivious) wife on the way home from a tryst, to counterbalance his own guilt. Better we should be lower and honest with Hashem, no? This is Hashem we are talking about here. He definitely has a fully functioning B.S. detector...it all depends on what you want. More shallowness, or less.
An interesting phenomena was reported to me by Jews for Judaism professional Motty Berger. He said that after successfully "deprogramming" a jew for yoshke, they never become frum. "Hey - wait a minute! You accepted the "new testament" after a yoshke guy "proved" it to you from verses in the Torah/na"ch. So you clearly accepted the idea (as they do) of Torah-min-hashamatim, no? So why are you dropping it (the Torah) now?"
Clearly there was a negiyah that got these people to accept the yoshke stuff "based" on the Torah. They never really had full faith in the Torah to begin with, and still do not. Same here: The aspects of an addict's avodah that were fake or mostly due to negios (approval, people expecting it of him, fear of retribution, etc.) tend to fall away for anyone in true recovery. Boruch Hashem! Now they can start to work from honesty. Even though "shelo lishma certainly maivee to lishma", for an addict in recovery there is often a lot of garbage that needs to be thrown out as they slowly grow into the honest and real people they desperately need to be in order not to die an alcoholic/sexaholic death.
Finally, look at the time frame here. I acted out for over fifteen years, so  ayear or two of sobriety before starting to feel anything ain't so bad, no? Why not be patient for something if it is really precious to you?

This is all I have to share at the moment cuz I gotta go! Much appreciation for your honesty and best wishes for our continued hatzlacha!
Dov 

Moshe asked:

 
Battleworn also asked me in a private e-mail, why it is that people like Dov can't move ON after spending 11 years in basements with Roman Catholic sponsors, and why can't they now use the Koach of Torah to SOAR!!

I would like to try and answer both these questions together (I just sent this to Battleworn by e-mail, but I want to post it here as well).

The way I see it, the 12-Steps provide the Even Hayesod of what it means to be a TORAH JEW. Some people ask a good question though. Chazal say Torah Bagoyim Al Tamin? So here's my take on the matter, and I'd be happy to hear if you agree or not...

The underlying purpose of Torah is really to become selfless and do everything for Hashem's sake. Now, the goyim who learn the deep yesodos of the 12-Steps achieve something called "enlightened self-interest". This means that they are able to internalize that becoming humble, selfless and living with Hashem, is really in their best interest. However, a non-Jew can't get past that, by nature of the fact that their souls are not capable of true Lishma (as Rav Shimon Bar Yochai said, kol ma de'avdin legarmeihu avdin). That's why "Torah bagoyim, al tamin". They can't achieve the true PURPOSE and reach the true SOUL of Torah. However, a guy like Dov, although he'll never admit it, and his lev nishbar wants to see himself as an addict just like them, still, by nature of the fact that he has a Jewish soul, he is able to internalize the Yesodos of the 12-Steps as TORAH. A Jew is able to truly reach high levels of Lishma and Emunah that no goy could reach. Because a Jewish soul has the quality of "kofim oso ad she'yomar rotzeh ani", even if he was brought to this state because he was about to DIE, still, deep down every Jew wants to do everything for Hashem. But a goy can only reach "enlightened self interest".

So while we may be learning Torah through the goyim (in the 12-Steps), the goyim themselves are only giving us "Chachma". A Jew, without even being aware of it, is able to turn the Chachma bagoyim into Torah for himself. (As the chassidishe Rebbes used to take the tunes of the non-Jewish shepherds and uplift them to the highest levels of Kedusha). So I believe that in a sense, people like Dov are able to take the chachma of the Roman Catholics in the basement, and soar with it to true Deveikus. As Dov recently posted: As Chuck C said: "A belief in G-d is good, but it is not enough for alcoholics. An Alkie needs to live in the constant awareness of the living presence of the Creator." Sounds suspiciously like deveikus, but what do I know about such things really? And this, my friends, is the ultimate example of Shchina batachtonim if I have ever seen it. As is known in Kabala, the lower down the Madreiga reaches, the higher it extends upwards as well. When Moshiach comes it says "ve'amdu raglav al har hazeisim"... the highest levels will reach all the way down to our dark world.

And this also answers Moshe's question (above). I believe the answer is, that while the goyim do not get schar (well, maybe they do get some for their Emunah and selflessness, but still not much) because they are doing this for ultimately for themselves. A Jew though, even if he THINKS that he is doing it for himself, really wants deep down to reconnect to Hashem - for Hashem's sake. And therefore, his schar is unmeasurable in working the 12-Steps. And people like Dov and London will tell you that NO, it is not a religious issue for them, it is "life and death". And they convince themselves (like Moshe thought) that they are not even worthy of schar, but I tell you, that - ADERABA - the more they believe that they are NOT doing it for schar, the more Lishma it really is for them, since deep down, that's all a Jew truly wants: Real deveikus; Real Lishma. These 12-Steppers will come up to Shamayim and see what great schar awaits them for sitting for years in the basements with perverts, only to achieve true hisbatlus and a true connection with Hashem.

Some people feel that these people are "wallowing" in "Katnus", not "Hisbatlus". But do they truly understand the difference between katnus and hisbatlus? R' Shlomo Karliner (I think) said that the way we can tell the difference between them is that katnus makes us want to "go to sleep", i.e. to give up, while a lev nishbar/hisbatlus makes us want to try even harder. But which one do you see in people like Dov, London and Boruch? Do they look like they want to give up, or are they going "mechayil el choyil" every day?

BTW. Moshe, also to address the "Cold feelings" that you have now for Yiddishkeit, Chizuk e-mail #485 on this page might help a little... (I have a lot more material on this known phenomenon, but I'll have to dig it up).

boruch wrote on 24 Jun 2009 23:12:


Dear Boruch & Battle

I have been too many AA & SA meetings over the years, and in my time I can honestly say I have never seen anything forced down anyone’s throats.  I hear the message at the meetings I have been to all over the world of faith, trust and prayer, working on oneself to overcome this illness.  If a person is struggling in his concept of Hashem the program will tell you to not let that be an obstacle.  I felt let down by Hashem when I came in the rooms, I had davened to Him been to Rabbonim for help to no avail, the last thing I wanted to hear is about G-d and religion, and AA said to me that's ok look around the rooms and you will see people who are getting sober let that empower you let them be your higher power, reach out to them when you are struggling - what’s mumbo jumbo about that.  Slowly but surely as my mind cleared I came to regain my faith in Hashem. Further one of the major attractions of the 12 step fellowships is that they are religion neutral, and work on spirituality.  If you look around the frum world today you will find many people who are religious but totally devoid of spirituality.  Whenever there is a tragedy in the Jewish world the Rabbonim are really quick to go on about tznius or the internet, never do we here loshon horoh or sinas chinom.  This is spirituality and this is where for the addict if his spiritual life is not in check he will relapse.  In the meetings that I attend I hear the message that no matter what I do I cannot cure myself, only a power greater than myself can - who is that power Hashem.  Further in today’s frum world, we are given a completely misguided concept of Hashem all this does not help the addict, so when he gets into the rooms and hears about G-d infinite love for us even during our darkest moments it confuses his religious understandings.  The concepts of AA are not at odds with Judaism.  You will find that after talking to a lot of frum addicts they will feel let down by our religion and its leaders.  We read about the youth at risk and how they rebel, a lot of addicts me included have not rebelled in their youth openly but were in pain nonetheless so used acting out as a means of comfort until it turned into a beast against them.

In my experience, and what I have seen of others, when I came into the rooms, my yiddishkeit was totally empty, devoid of all meaning, and for me the neutral tones of AA helped me get sober so that my mind can gain clarity.  After a few years in recovery slowly but surely my Yiddishkeit is waking up.  Do not judge another until you have been in his shoes.

Battle you write that we have inside knowledge that the Rabbonim do not have, how many 12 step meetings have you ever attended, you are basing your misguided judgments on what a few people in this forum are writing as opposed to the hundreds and hundreds of frum people who have been saved by the fellowships and their religious beliefs given a major overhaul.  Further it is well known that R' Twersky attends open AA meetings on a regular basis.  We also say in the fellowships take what works for you and leave the rest.

What an answer! Battle, do you see what greatness a Yid can achieve when Hashem blesses them with NO CHOICE?? I am in AWE. This is what I was saying to you before Battle, that all the knowledge in the world won't help an addict. It needs to be FELT in the HEART. Unfortunately, it takes "staring down the barrel of the gun of lust" to be ready to TRULY internalize these yesodos. And at that point, we can even get them from goyim. We have no where to go but UP. Maybe we should have a Jewish program one day. That would also work if it used the same Ikronos of the 12-Step groups. But what can we do that it doesn't exist yet? Not everyone who hits bottom can go to this "gadol" you mention and get the inspiration they need to recover from lust addiction. This Bochur made an about face because he was missing some understanding, some Yedia, some inspiration. But a lust addict like Dov needs 11 years of constant interaction with other addicts, meetings, phone calls, etc... A disease can't be healed with one meeting, no matter WHAT this gadol will tell him. At least I believe so. But if we had a Jewish PROGRAM like the 12-Steps, maybe...

Reb Dov, thank you so much for replying.



No I didn't mean that. But from experience, I know that there is a way to get people to really know these things. There are people in the world that have the power to get these things through to others. That's how I recovered. (But I'm not an addict, I'm an ex-addict) I personaly watched an Odom Godol change someones life in about 40 minutes. This bochur had abandoned his Yiddishkeit and was not keeping anything. The Odom Gadol spoke to him for 40 minutes and the guy made an about face. Two weeks later he was in Yeshiva for the new zman.

But I would also like to know if you were aware of all of them. And if not, which ones?

B'H back to Day 3.

I'm really trying to overcome my apprehension/hesitations with the 12 Steps. I'm not so sure anymore that what i've been doing in the past will get me the results I'm looking for.

If anyone has any answers (or can point me to an answer), I would very much appreciated.

1a)  Are all the 12 Steps and their insights found in the Torah?
1b) If so, why the need to create/join a whole fellowship when the Torah can be used instead
1c) Are we trying to re-invent the wheel with SA/12-Steps (because it'll probably come out worse than what H' gave us)?
1d) If so, why can't we just use those Torah principles that are the basis of the 12-Steps as additional to our avoda?

2a) By joining 12-Steps/SA, am I putting my faith/trust in SA/12-Steps to heal me and not in HaShem and His Torah?
2b) If you say that the 12-Steps/SA incorporate putting your trust/faith in HaShem, why not just interact directly with H' instead of through the 12-Steps?
2c) Are the 12-Steps/SA viewed as replacement to what is given to us in the Torah by HaShem?

3a) Are there any harmful ideas/philosophies in the 12-Steps that go contrary to the Torah?
3b) Has SA/12-Steps lead people in the wrong direction as far as Yiddishkeit (from engagement in this Western/non-Jewish program/organization)?

4a) Are the 12 Steps accepted by the Gedolim and other Rabbis (other than R' Twerski)?
4b) Are there Gedolim that vehemently appose the 12-Steps/SA?

5a) Do I have to be 100% positive (or close) that nothing else out there will work to help me overcome addiction to start Step 1?
5b) How would someone who advocates the 12-Steps/SA respond to someone who has recovered from addiction through his determination, Torah/Mussar, and Siyata D'Shmaya?

When I first joined SA,  I wanted to come in, recover and get the hell outa there.  I hated the reteric "once an addict, always and addict" "lifetime commitment", "disease" etc, it scared me more then anything and it surely stopped me from joining for some time.  Now that I’ve joined the groups I take it one day at a time, I am slowly reocovering and I know that what I messed up in 15 years I can't fix in 2 weeks so I'm willing to continue unitl I'm sober for at least another 6 months or year and then reevaluate. At that time I may try therapy, may decide to stay or leave and live happily ever after, or I may leave the program, relapese and come back untill I die.  Many old time members of SA know people who have left the program and have maintained sobriety, they usually admit this after giving you the whole diabities drosha.

My point is, Mordy don't worry so much about the future and don't let other people scare you, every addict is different and it may or may not be a lifelong commitment, either way it's not a commitment, you try as long as you want. Good luck.