Reading the handbooks is a very important step. Many of the questions you ask are answered there. But don't think you have to read it all in one sitting. Take your time and go through it carefully. Share your questions, thoughts and comments on this board, that we created especially for this purpose.

You ask, what is your problem? The problem we all need to accept is an addiction to Lust. This is a spiritual disease, that will destroy us if we don't deal with it. You could have been predisposed to addiction because of low-self esteem of any other HOST of issues. But it doesn't really matter what exactly might have brought it on. The bottom line is that you have the disease, and although you should not consider yourself responsible or guilty for getting it, you are 100% responsible for your recovery.

It is not an issue of Emunah. As you will see in the Attitude handbook principle #10, fear of heaven is not sufficient in dealing with addiction. It can only PUSH us to take the steps that ARE sufficient for dealing with addiction.

For a partner, please see here.

As far as how it works with K9, please follow the instructions here Tzadik.

Keep strong and may Hashem be with you!

This was one of the funniest lines I ever read! ;D

The way I see it, spirituality is not the same as religion. Religion is an "organized" set of principles and divine service to a specific G-d. "Spirituality" on the other hand, requires only the acceptance of a spiritual higher power. I believe that Dov meant simply that an addict needs spirituality to be able to regain his sanity. For him, it is much like "food". All the particulars of religion though, are completely irrelevant to the healing process that happens in the 12-Step groups. So Dov is still right. Problem solved!

Gut Voch.

Firstly - a thank you to everyone replied. The responses are all taken to heart and absorbed with the greatest of gratitude.

Secondly - Post Shabbos, I am 3 days clean again.

Thirdly, another thought that I had about improvements in my struggle. The intermediate period between falls has improved, as previously remarked upon. What has also improved, is that each fall is shorter (and provoked by less, which is a bit of a concern) AND - here's the next chiddush - once I fall, I seem to only act out once. It used to be repetitively (since I have fallen, I might as well stay down here for a while....  ???) but now the bounce back seems to prevent that! An unintended, (although obviously crucial) improvement. A freebie perhaps? Since I haven't specifically worked on this area of my addiction that is. Any thoughts about people's own experiences with such will be gratefully received.

Finally, another chiddush perhaps even greater, but this will have to wait for later because I have  run out of time.

Wishing everyone a mighty week of Y"H avoidance and purposeful reconstruction of their lives.

Philpher

I just noticed this:

MosheF wrote on 25 Jun 2009 18:03:


Moshe, even Clarence Snyder of Cleveland who was a fundamentalist who had his sponsees surrender to Yoshke would never discuss religion in groups. There is no reason to discuss the specifics of religion in groups at all. Furthermore there is no reason at all to bring up religious specifics when sponsor and sponsee do not either share religion or religious viewpoint. So that is not the issue at all.

The issue is the meaning of the Third Step.

Among religious people the Third Step Surrender offering ourselves to the G-d of our understanding is all about becoming in the words of the Big Book "Agents" and Employees of G-d. We can share the generic part of this with all religious people who identify with serving G-d. We do not need to get into any specifics. Becoming an "Agent" and Employee of G-d is what all religious people understand as becoming His servants. And that is a good thing. We Frum Jews call that becoming avdei Hashem. They say, Thy Will not mine be done, and when we say that we mean battel retzoncho mipnei retzono - the highest form of avodas Hashem.

Yet I have a frum sponsee who had no problems with Hashem, who nevertheless understood from his former sponsor, a secular Jew, that he should not identify the God of his understanding with Hashem. Rather when he was a child, unbeknownst to my sponsee, it was really his father (at least that was this sponsor's theory) and now it should be something else, presumably the group.

This may be a somewhat extreme example, but I believe that it is indicative of the tone of much of what I have heard in the rooms and much that I have read on this thread about how Spirituality is allegedly entirely different from Religion.

As though a Frum Jew could be in program a Spiritual secular employee of Hashem and in Shul or Beis Hamedrash a Religious religious employee of Hashem. I believe that anybody out of program would recognize this for the meaninglessness that it is, and yet I suspect that more than a few in program might in all sincerity believe that there may be something to this convoluted thinking.

That's because they are doing a secularist version of the program that not only does not go into Religious specifics, it secularizes the Third Step by divorcing serving God of your understanding (which in secularist groups is just secular wording for doing program) from serving Hashem (Religion).

Of course for atheists and agnostics this is no mumbo-jumbo, it is a vital lifeline which enables them to begin a climb to accepting G-d. But for us frum Jews, to whom are you offering yourself in the Third Step if not Hashem?

dov wrote on 25 Jun 2009 22:20:


OUR Hashem wants NON-JEWS to talk about HIM and if we do not want them to, then we are in it for ourselves and not for Hashem.

dov wrote on 25 Jun 2009 22:20:


I think that I do well when I am not on the defensive about religious AAs.

I do well when I do not have to treat Hashem saving those who put their own houses in order to the best of their ability, those who help fellow addicts and those who Trust in Him to keep them sane, as if it were about food and not about religion.

To me rigorous honesty demanded by the program is about facing uncomfortable truths. Yes, I have a disease but it's root was a Spiritual disease, a disease that came directly from my own selfishness, resentments and fears, and a disease that came from my lack of honesty, openness and willingness to admit and fix those problems. Had I done that hishtadlus and had I trusted Hashem, I would have been sober much more than 10 days when I initially joined SA.

If I would, for myself, succumb to any temptation to believe some of the claims on this board, claims that have no basis in AA/SA literature, no basis in AA/SA history and no basis in common sense, for me at least, it would be nothing more than excuses and lies. It would be the problem and not the solution. Of course, for others perhaps it is about progress and not perfection, and if it works for them, well for today, that's fine. When I hear frum SAs struggling with the perceived "threat" of the religious AAs and SAs I do not doubt that they are doing the best they can with the program that they have received.

But for those who know from the program that they must remain teachable there is much to learn. An honest look at the Steps shows that it is not about food, it is about the Third Step, offering ourselves to Hashem, not as food for Him to eat but as His servants. It's that simple.

And it doesn't even matter whether everyone in program is teachable. Because there are enough people who are desperate for anything that has better results than what for too many is a program of relapse and there are some who are open, honest and willing enough to discover something better. Sooner or later people will see that there is a better way. And as Rav Noach Weinberg Zt"l used to say,

Rav Noach Weinberg Zt wrote:


Frum Yidden are smart when they see that others are on to something good they will want it too

Rabosai,
I am sorry for not updating the thread in a few days.  Every day that I came to the forum to update I ended up posting on other threads and then ran out of time. 
So here are the two new section
Section #11 – Internalizing the Yetzer Hara
Section #12 – From Passerby to Master of the House

These two deal more with addictions.  Enjoy!

I really want to thank the chabura for taking part in this especially PostalServicio, who was hesitant.  I have a secret for you PostalServicio. As you know, you took a break for a while from GYE.  However, every week when I went to the kosel to daven for all the yidden on the site, I would look at your name and wonder whether I should take the name off as perhaps you are no longer a member.  And I knew you would return.  So I continued davening.  We need you here. 

Chaim, thanks for your elaboration and "introduction".  It was really very beautiful.  One question to think about.  If the idea of shecting the y"h was because we no longer need him, why did hashem shect him? Why not just kill him?

I want to now summarize some of the ideas that have been presented so far.

Section #1- Eulogy of the Yetzer Hara
Why are the tzaddikkim crying:

• Noorah:they are crying from HAPPINESS. That they forged ahead anyhow. [see maharsha who says in theiry this is a good pshat but rejects it because the gemora calls it a eulogy]
 

• Postal:they no longer have the opportunity to fight, to grow, to show H' how much they are willing to do for Him. The tzadikim realize how much they actually needed the yh in order to get them to reach great heights. For these reasons, they cry and mourn for their "friend"; their opponent is gone, so the war is over...so now what? Their existence is no longer what it was when the yh was around.  Wow!  Chaim's explanation helps a lot understand.

Both of these explanations should give chizzuk to ourselves as we rejoice in our efforts and realize how good life is. 

Section #2-Thin to Thick
Why is the yetzer hara referred to as a string altogether?

• Noorah:Perhaps the analogy can be understood as follows: the purpose of a string is to bind together 2 disparate objects. When the menuvel first stops by to solicit our business, we may say to ourselves "look let me sample the wares, I can always send him packin on his way" that thought "that I can sever the relationship at any time that I feel like" is the "thin strand" but in the end as the business relationship progresses the "ties" that connects and attaches us to the menuvel becomes more n more shall we say "binding" pun intended

I just realized that I may have been misundertood, when I mentioned the story about the bochur. I did not mean to imply, that in 40 min. of speaking to the right person, an addict's problems will be taken care of. Even in the case of the bochur; if there would have been follow up, he would be so much better off now (2 years later) than he is.

And a lust addict is a whole lot more complicated. My point in bringing the story was just to give a simple illustration how there are ways to get these yesodos through to people (provided that they're interested). If you need an example of a lust addict, you'll have to take me and some of the other fellows on the forum.

Today is 15
I was saved today by an Etza I got here in the forum that an addict is patur from keeping track of others, and "making sure" they aren't doing something illicit.

Maybe this was the Mistake of Abaye when he went to "keep" the man and woman on the walk from sin. This allowed him to enter into dialogue with the YH. He therefore felt he might have sinned himself, whereas the unknowing man and woman were just naturally - going somewhere, with no awareness of sin. While I'm not saying that it was allowed or good for them to be alone on the road, the'r mind was not even occupied with sin\spiritual battles. Just Abaye.

This is an example of how davka us religious guys, can fall. Because we look at women in  a lot of ways as sin-stations, If I just park my senses for a while and rest -- I'll sin, in thought or deed.
Again I'm not in favor of befriending women, but I hope you get the point that the regular religious Yeshivish Chinuch warps our mind. Then we have to deal with the issue as sick allergic people would - stay away, be careful OR ELSE!
Is there a chance for normalcy?

I think the answer is quite simple. Klal Yisroel has known for thousands of years, that a time is going to come when things will be so dark that we simply will not be able to find the tools to deal with it. It's a rule of nature that light only comes after dark.

The light of the Geulah is going to be an all-encompassing light that is so powerful and clear that there won't be any confusion at all in the world. Everyone will see Hashems glory perfectly clearly etc.

According to the rules of nature that Hashem established חק נתן ולא יעבור, the only way that, that great all-encompassing light can be revealed is with first having a great all-encompassing dark fill the world. So the fact that people search and search is really no chidush to me. The chidush is when we don't give up. And mind you, that's a great big chidush.



All this, has also been my experience. All I'm adding is that there are people in the world that, can get all this through to people, without having to slow down at all in Avodas Hashem. Instead we take our tremendous, above average, spiritual energy that has until now been hijacked by the y'h and diverted to lust; and redirect it towards it's natural direction of Avodas Hashem.

Shalom my dearest chaver,
I had a similar problem and I told her the story of Reb Amram chasida in the gemarrah wHere the holy sage reb amram who the ohr hachaim hakadosh calls the rabbis of all pious in other words he was the chief of them all and yet when confronted by an overpowering lust he almost succumbed (I think I may have read the story from inside the gemarrah at the shabbos table) in any event, I said to her "I don't trust myself, I'm only flesh and blood" I also added that a person who thinks that he ca be smarter then sages is doomed to fail. I told her that I'm not embarrassed to admit that even the big tzadik that I am is not allowed to be myached with arroyos (nothing embarrassing about that, Moshe Rabienu and the Chofets chaim were pretty big tzadikim and yet even they were not allowed to be left alone secluded with arroyos. Many times I repeated to her that un filtered internet is like an "erveh" and yes I don't trust myself.
After a few of these discussions, when my ears heard what mouth was saying, I said to her "sweetheart I'm going to ask you to put in a password in the filter and if I  ever ask you for it (its a sophisticated fir wall that sometimes I need to adjust for legitimate purposes) promise me that you will change it within the hour".
I also taught her how to make sure that the filter is set properly to block all the bypass shenanigans that I had used in the past .
Does my wife suspect that I may have stumbled in the past? Could be!! The wives are usually a lot smarter then we think! I know that mine is a lot smarter the me, yet she is also smart enough not let me know that she is smarter then me!!

She hasn't said anything outright to me, and for this I'm very greatfull to her. If she suspected anything then she left me a "fig leaf" to hide behind
Either way it doesent matter to me now! I think She respects me more for this!
My dear ninety, I guarantee u if u do it the way  the guys  on the forum are suggesting, only good can and will come out of it.

A note of caution, be prepared that if your wife does confront you point blank, it may not be the smartest thing to tell her the truth! She probably will not be able to handle it and its no sin to just say "I don't want the temptation period".
The old "dicretion is the better part of valor"

You may want to consider saying to her that you just
realized that this a halachic question that we need to ask a Rabbi/Rov not any less in importance then any other shailos in laws of yichud.

Please keep us posted, we are all with you in our joint struggle!

With eternal love
Noorah BAmram

philpher wrote on 25 Jun 2009 13:41:

Dear philpher,
Your honesty and desperation are like refreshing cold water on my face! Thanks.
Being in kolel is wonderful, as is being married, having a family, etc., etc. But. No, you are not the first person to get overwhelmed with problems associated with or unassociated with your addiction (or whatever it is). For my wife, the best day of our lives together was the day she realized that I had started to change. It was after about a year of sobriety. Soon after my
4&5th steps, which I felt I had done a lousy "job" on, incidentally.We have never watched our wedding video since I got sober and it's been a bunch of years...she has no interest in it because it pales in comparison to what is going on now. We are really a unit, though far from a perfect one. I tell you this because your story is painful, touching, and you seem to grasp the absolute supremacy and preciousness of your sobriety. You are oozing hope.
Therefore:
Please consider that you are really only recognizing the tip of the iceberg when you say, "having a handle on the lusting is proving to release enough energy which can be more profitably used elsewhere". It is much, much more than a waste of your precious energy. It is actually deforming and poisoning every aspect of your life with self-centerdness, disproportional comaprisons, and irrational thinking. Clearing away the reckage of your past and present will occur in tandem with your recovery. It's not just easier, it is impossible w/o sobriety. If you take hold of the steps and actually work them the way your sponsor did, get a sober chevra to stay sober with (preferably alive and talkable, like a meeting) and make calls as needed, your chances are really good. Any problems with that (or are you doing it already)? If you feel I am "pushing too hard", please consider that I'm not telling you what to do at all, just sharing what worked for me. That is what loving someone is about, no? Hatzlocho and good Shabbos, brother!

battleworn wrote on 25 Jun 2009 08:59:

Dear Battleworn,
1- I think I should let you know the respect I have for you to make a point of saying you are an ex-addict. I have heard others say this in meetings. I don't believe it's the approach for me and apparently others feel the same, but it is apparently working for you and alei vehatzlach!
2- Perhaps there are people who can even convince addicts of the many basic concepts that a healthy jewish mind is made of that were listed. I looked precisely for that in therapy (four+ shrinks - enough to change a two lightbulbs!), rabonnim (a minyan), and the ARIz"l's mikvah (perhaps the bravest of my efforts!), and let's not forget the Creator Himself: I asked Him a lot of times to help me out. Why didn't He listen? Is it just another "Holocaust kashyeh"? i think not. Hashem only comes in where people let Him in, and I had no room for Him in my life. All I wanted was to be able to still act out and yet get better at the same time. (Kinda like we'all did at Sinai w/that eigel statue - we wanted to keep the luchos, too!) Until my own personal "luchos" broke, before my very eyes. You know, i have completely forgotten where i was going with this...
Oh yeah, the awareness thing. Well, it took the recovery of some of my sanity to get back to faith in Hashem's personal interest in me, and many of the other beautiful things that were listed.
But Battleworn, you are leaving something out - the "knowing it" approach is a bit simplistic for another reason: I and anyone else i know sober and in recovery is still growing in these awarenesses, every day. Not because I read (and learn be'iyun) the RMBM explaining to me that i am halachikly required to, nor because Rav Dessler explains why it is really logical that I should. It is only through experience and struggle in avodas Hashem with sanity that Hashem gives these gifts, in my experience.
Now, it may very well be different for non-addicts. I'll end with a story:
Never mind, just read the heiligeh Divrei Chayim (in vayeitzei?) on the Ba'al Shem Tov's wonderful explanation of the posuk "Kayl nekamos Hashem". Good Shabbos, amigo!!

Pintele Yid wrote on 25 Jun 2009 19:03:

Sholom aleichem again, Pintele Yid!
This is what I was getting at with the division of the steps into two portions, and thanks for wringing out the issue:

After being around a bit with yidden in and out of recovery, and then for the past few months on this site, it seems to me there are two basic concerns most yidden have with the 12 steps, SA, or whatever (please tell me if you have seen otherwise):

1- The first step. It sounds christian. Their whole message seems to be that we are all sinners, basically evil, and losers because of original sin. This actually oozes through, I feel, even in the 12&12 (which was basically written by Bill and the NY groupies and not by the "frum" Dr. Bob group). I don't have the page, but it was a discussion about the fourth/fifth step and how "we join the rest of the Human Race" when we recognize our powerlessness. Maybe there is a bifferent way to interpret that...Now, I was a "straight-shooting Mesillas Yeshorim guy ("nimtza, hamilchama eilav panim ve'achor!", etc.)" before hitting "the big time" in addiction followed by my slow and less-that-glamorous recovery. The big issue  for me was always bechira chofshis, nahama dekisufa, yadayadayada. We frummies of a religion based on personal responsibility, do not take well to the rather pathetic-sounding sine qua non of recovery: "Uh, oh...I'm sick (note no exclamation point) ."
To many, it's just impossible and we go to find a billion gemoras about how yiras shomayim is not in Hashem's hands, etc, to hang on to our suicide license. The implication of insanity in the 2nd step is just insulting, but for many of us this is more like sacrilege! Many end up in the meetings anyway, or somewhere else than a beis medrash in any case, for help. Gevalt. Whatever works...  First problem.

2- The meetings and entire venue is goyish. (I doubt seriously that the similarity to "confession" really bothers anyone enough not to use the 5th step and I feel similarly about the word "G-d" or "Power greater than themselves" in the literature; the assumption that relying completely on Hashem to remove our bad middos (6&7) is crazy and against mussar etc; the implication that the frowning upon the addicts' praying for any specific personal needs in the 11th; being doomed to lifelong "kiruv (alcoholic/sexaholic) rechokim" suggested by the 12th seems kind of severe. All these problems are small fry.)
Rather, I think the problem is just the general goyishe venue the fellowships and steps represent. It's in a church, they often use the christian prayers at the end! (my goyishe home group does not), and the people with recovery are goyim - and they are talking about MY HASHEM! They have to be, cuz they are having nissim, aren't they? How can this be? Most of us would rather not get involved in such a thing, period.
Well, no wonder people like me have accepted the illness model, given up on fixing ourselves, and gone to join these folks for help. We turn a blind eye at the two big problems, not even caring any more about the issues.
Then we find that Hashem feeds everyone and sanity is more like food than religion, problem solved! (even if some goyishe religious AA/SAs think otherwise, maybe even Roy K and Dr Bob)
So. Wadaya think, anyone? And...
Where do we all go from here?

battleworn wrote on 25 Jun 2009 15:22:


Battleworn, there is no reason at all to cry. You and many others on this site are just missing a vital piece of knowledge. There is no cure for addiction. Period.

After an addict has done his hishtadlus and bitochon by TAKING (not just studying, journalling or writing) the first Ten Steps, or any other religious method that achieves Trust Hashem, Clean House and Help Others, then, if done honestly and thoroughly, after a maximum of 3 months of "ten-stepping",  Hashem WILL lift the insanity, the obsession and compulsion, but only one day at a time.

Hashem gives no permanent cure to the addict, in the same way that Hashem gave once a day to the ochlei hamon, Hashem gives the addict one day of sanity for that day only and it is contingent on his daily working of Trust Hashem, Clean House and Help Others. Any day on which the addict fails to do that, no matter how many years he is in the program, Hashem will not give the addict his daily reprieve and the addict is vulnerable to massive relapse, no matter how many years he has been doing the program. Just like the ochlei hamon, no matter how many years they went out for the mon, if they skipped one day they starved. And with the addict to relapse for even one day is to risk everything.

The problem for the addict is that as vital as it is that he should mainstream (if the program was done as it was in the 1940s they would mainstream in months instead of years) when he is among others he is in danger of fooling himself that just like other people can get away without a day of Trust Hashem, Clean House and Help Others, so can he. That is why it is so vital to remember where he came from by helping not just other yidden but other yiddish addicts. That is why it is so vital to keep coming back to meetings. That is why it is useful to have a sponsor.

But first a word about the sponsor. The sponsor in the 1940s was not a "rebbe" or mentor for living life. He was not a therapist, nor was he someone to depend on. He was a "Step chavrusa". No more. No less. That is my relationship with my sponsor and the fact that he is Roman Catholic is neither here nor there.

As it happens I do not know of ANY Frum sponsor in SA (including the Rov with the longest frum sobriety) who have a message that is anywhere near as powerful as the message that my Roman Catholic sponsor has given me. That message is powerful, not because my sponsor is Catholic nor despite it, it's powerful because it is the message that he got from those in the more religious wing of AA, those that still carry the torch of the early AAs and that's a message that so far has not penetrated the frum community.

Am I dependent even today at just 156 days of sobriety on my sponsor? Not at all. But his being many more years in program than I and having worked it longer than I makes him a valuable resource and so I am not desperately seeking a Frum sponsor with the right message for me (I personally am convinced from everything I have seen, heard and read that there is none) because I have a Rebbe and Rov, I have no need for a therapist and my sponsor can be as Roman Catholic as our Doctor, Dentist or mechanic and that's fine.

Furthermore I assure you there is no chisoron and nothing to cry about the fact that until recently we have not had a big enough all-frum community of addicts to be self-supporting.

Of course there is no exclusive reason to have a Roman Catholic sponsor, the main reason that in my opinion, people do, is that the Roman Catholics have a mesorah and understanding of addiction that goes all the way back to Esov (I am only slightly joking because there is a lot more truth in this comment than you would expect), there are a disproportionate number of Roman Catholic sponsors and they tend to have more traditional values.

guardureyes wrote on 23 Jun 2009 10:36:

I think the Guard has really crystallized what I was trying to say.

In this project, the backbone would be the 12 steps. Their is nothing treif/avodah zarah about it because as was described several times, there is nothing in the 12 steps that is kneged hatorah. Adaraba, since the world was initially totally spiritual (based on the Blueprint of the Torah), and was then transormed into physical, then spiritual teachings in the Torah provides the oros to other chachmos. That is how the concepts in the twelve steps eventually evolved. Our project just wants to enhance the "physical" implementation of the 12 steps by inserting the "spiritual" concepts from which it was derived.

MosheF brings up another important reason why this should be done. When frum people first try their hardest to use Torah to fight their addiction only to come up short, when they find success in something that on the surface doesn't appear to be Torah, then the natural reaction is for a spiritually inclined person to make the 12 steps their source for spirituality. They therefore "unburden" themselves from the Torah because in such a circumstance, the Torah creates unwanted noise.

By showing how each of the 12 steps is really rooted in the teachings of the Torah, the addict will then become to realize how the Torah can relate to them and how they can relate to the Torah. This would lead them to a healthier recovery, because down deep, every Heiliga yid's "Pintela Yid" needs the Torah to survive.

Reb Dov - I re-read your posts diffrentiating the 1st from the rest of the steps and I don't understand how a Lev Nishbar, recognizing that you are an addict, powerless, and totally reliant on Hashem for recovery, is not a Torah concept? Reb Eluzer Ben Durdaya, the ultimate addict, is a perfect example of that. I understand his hearing the flatulance and resulting comment of that zonah that he is not going to go to Olam Haba, as a perfect example of someone who attained some level of "Daas". Meaning that he finally knew 100% that he had to change. He then reached outward instead of inward and he asked the help of everyone except Hashem. He finally acquired greater "Daas" that the only way for him to succeed will be a Lev Nishbar (signified by putting his head between his knees). Without total reliance on Hashem he wasn't getting very far. He actually didn't go much further and he passed away - maybe because he didn't have guidance on the next 11 steps.

(Derech Agav, there are many lessons to be learnt for this Gemora and maybe there should be a post on the Bais Medrash portion of the site to discuss them.)

Boruch and others who feel they are not qualified for such a project should think again. The Koach Harabim of those of you who have really been helped by the 12 steps as well as the unbelievable Toeles Horabim that would result from such a project would make you I"Y"H succeed. Please take a moment and analyze if your self doubts are coming from the tzad of kedusha or the other side who desparately doesn't want such a program to succeed.