I'm taking to myself here...

pesach is coming... we need hashem to take us out of Mitzrayim...

Mussar, Chizuk and inspiration are all niceties that don't always work very well with addiction. The only thing that can take us out of this Mitzrayim is a "strong hand".

There are two ways that this can be accomplished, either by willingly making the addiction suffer (like the 10 plagues on the Egyptians) or if Hashem pours suffering on the addict himself until he hits bottom and is ready to let Hashem take him out (like the suffering the Yidden underwent in Mitzrayim).

Of these two options, which one do we choose? Are we willing to cause suffering and "dinim" on the addiction by making strong fences for ourselves (like the TaPHSiC method), or will we have to wait until Hashem takes us out with His strong hand, like when our wives find out or our name gets ruined, or we lose our jobs, self-respect, our children's respect, our marriage, etc, chas veshalom?

Chazal tell us that when there is din limata (judgment below), there is no din limala (judgment above). For example, when Pinchas killed Zimri he halted the din limala and the plague stopped. Basically, this is the same idea. If we choose to make "din limata" and create "dinim" for ourselves on the addiction by making shvuos, fences and knasos, then Hashem helps us mercifully and takes us out of Mitzrayim will much less personal suffering. But if we don't take this route of din limata, we may only be ready to leave Mitzrayim when we hit-bottom, r"l, and then we'll finally surrender to Hashem and let Him take us out (the 12-Step approach).

Chizuk, mussar and inspiration are simply not enough when dealing with addiction. We must employ strong-hand tactics if we don't want to hit-bottom, c"v.

Gonna post cuz why not

B'chasdei Hashem by some divine nes, I'm still clean from p and m. Regular internet addiction is still as bad as ever though. Also still having almost incessant shmutzik hirhurim. Any help to mitigate these hirhurim would be greatly appreciated. I feel like I've tried everything from learning Torah to looking up pictures of cute puppies . Every day gets harder for me to not fall. My body feels like it NEEDS that "release". 

It's ridiculous how naive I was at the beginning of my streak when I thought this would be easy.

TL;DR: Just another Yid going through sexual withdrawal

BHYY, did you ever try "Alternative Fulfillment" ?

More often than not, an addiction is a psychological escape that we learned to use as a way to flee from the realities of life. If we can manage, in the early stages of the addiction, to keep ourselves occupied with healthy and fulfilling activities that we enjoy, and find more meaning in our lives, the addiction will often fade away of its own accord. Fulfillment often comes from finding realistic challenges and reaching the goals that we set for ourselves.

We should try to find new jobs or projects that will enable us to express our creativity, find enjoyment, and reconnect with life and the world around us. This will help fill the "void" that we were subconsciously trying to satisfy with unhealthy pleasure seeking.

Other ideas to help us start living "outside of ourselves" and feel more fulfillment in general, could include Chesed projects or involvement in the community in various ways. If you are a Bochur in Yeshiva, you might try and get the job of organizing the Otzar Haseforim, running a canteen, providing dry cleaning services, haircuts, etc... If you are not learning and also unemployed, try to find a job! The main thing is to keep busy, reconnect to the world around us and find fulfillment in a variety of ways that will counteract the "false fulfillment" that the addiction tries to provide us with.

Dear Guys
I started receiving emails from Rabbi Shais Taub.
Rabbi shais taub is a scholar with lots of experience in this topic including his own book on addictions and the 12 step program.
Dear Directors and moderators please ask Rabbi Taub to get involved with the website. He has been in touch with Rabbi Dr. Twersky ZT"L.
I have personally sent him a message and he answered me. 

Please look at the below links.

Eyes
www.soulwords.org/

player.vimeo.com/video/520414118?title=1&byline=1&portrait=1&loop=0&autoplay=0&color=&transparent=0

www.chabad.org/news/article_cdo/aid/5024639/jewish/Rabbi-Dr-Abraham-J-Twerski-90-Leading-Authority-on-Substance-Abuse.htm

cordnoy wrote on 05 Mar 2021 16:24:





cordnoy wrote on 19 Jun 2018 12:32:

Just trying to reconcile your posts. I believe this also used to be In your signature?

Unless, as I believe the answer is along the lines as changing (and to an extent myself) wrote.

Yes we perceive it as a need, but not that we perceive we will die without it, we just feel theres no point in existin without out

There is definitely a strong opinion against counting days and it applies to some people. 

Here is something "Dov" wrote about counting days:

Counting Days Can Backfire for Real Addicts
A string of clean days once in a while is very nice, but this business of counting the days can sometimes be one of the strongest weapons that tayva/lust addiction/the YH/self-defeating behavior (or whatever you wish to call it) has against you. I believe that the one thing that some of us can do to practically assure that we will fail again and just shlep along till we get really messed up, is to count the days clean. We are just letting the pressure build up without making any true inner change.

I am not posting this to you because it sounds good, nor just because it makes sense to me...but only because I have experienced it myself. Counting seems to be helpful for some people - yet total poison for others.

It starts with one ... and it ends with one .

The days we stay clean do not really 'add up'. They are over as soon as it is the next day. I have never seen a pile of days anywhere? Have you? As the sefer Gesher Hachayim tells us (and as Hashem tells us in the Sh'ma when He says, "Hayom" a few times), our time here is made of one thing: now . The past is over and the future hasn't happened to us yet. So there is no such thing as "being clean for two days," at all. It is just a fantasy.... and fantasy is apparently not your friend, nor is it mine.

It does seem to help other folks, but we need to look at what we are doing and admit if it works, or not, for us.

  

EscapeArtist wrote on 07 Mar 2021 03:05:

I am going to tiptoe here, okay. 

Firstly, you ain't the only one who feels that way. In general, something that's difficult will be even more difficult if it's meaningless as well, so it makes total sense that you feel drawn to davening and and brachos (gratitude and asking Hashem may be something you even learned in SA) because you feel a purpose in them. 

So for starters, focus on what you are motivated to do and build up your relationship with through those. 

There are many sources that deal with your question but one that I found very insightful is Rav Dessler in Mabat HaEmes, "The Truth Perspective" (chelek alef towards the beginning). Towards the end of it, he explains one of the purposes of learning Torah, I would be glad to elaborate if you are interested. 

In Yeshiva they taught us that Torah is tavlin for the Y"H. That never did it for me, and I am guessing that won't cut it for you either. In my search for an explanation to the same question that you ask, I actually found a pshat for Torah tavlin that made some sense and it is nothing like a pill, learn Torah and the Y"H weakens. I mean, how many of us can say truthfully that this works for them. What I learned is that the Y"H comes where ever we let it in, wherever there is a void. Filling ourselves up and making sure there are no empty spaces is the proper antidote for the Y"H. While it's true that learning Torah is the ultimate thing to fill that hole, if it doesn't fill anything for you, it ain't gonna work. 

One way to connect with Hashem when you are learning, is to learn out of gratitude. You already say berachos out of gratitude, most of davening is gratitude, you know the power of gratitude and how that can bring you closer to people and motivate people so how about using gratitude here also. Assuming that you know the importance of learning, "I'm not willing to drop learning torah, as it's the foundation of our existence" do it out of gratitude. You know it's the will of Hashem, He does so much for us, we therefor want to do His will and learn Torah. 

Does that make any sense?

I too went through most of Yeshiva spending most of my time looking at the clock. I had no sense of what I was doing there other than "that's just what you gotta do". I had no sense of chovaso b'olamo either, which didn't help much. I feel your pain, it's murderous to try to do things that we don't understand and can't connect with. 

One more thing, you have to make it a goal if you want to feel satisfaction from it. That is one of the beauties of Daf Yomi. It gives people who wouldn't necessarily feel satisfaction from learning a sugya in depth, a different kind of goal. It is one that when completed, is a huge accomplishment and gives immense satisfaction. It's the goal that drives people who otherwise would have very little interest in learning. In Yeshiva the goal is to learn and understand the sugya, to have clarity and seek the truth. Once we leave Yeshiva (and for many of us in Yeshiva as well) it becomes much more difficult to focus on this, if you can, great, if not, making goals similar to Daf Yomi can really help keep someone motivated by being a concrete goal.

Hope this makes some sense, I would love to hear your thoughts.

All the best,
Wilnevergiveup

EscapeArtist wrote on 07 Mar 2021 03:05:

Mr. Giesel: People have said far worse and not been "cancelled" here. There are few unpardonable offenses (though I do remember the guy who got the boot because he was advocating being mekarev prostitutes while being mekarev them a little too much...).

I think a person needs to learn what gives him a sipuk hanefesh. If kvetching through a sugya is not cutting it, why not try a little more bekiusdik, or halacha l'maaseh?
Also, maybe try to get a second opinion from another rabbi/mentor - an anonymous sex addiction forum is probably not going to cut it.

This may be a strange forum to post this question on, but I figure this is where all the real Jews are...
I've been along the yeshiva-guy conveyor belt, spent many years in yeshiva & kollel; thank God for sending me this addiction so I'm forced to join SA & take some serious introspection about my actions & beliefs.
​As I've heard from others, I find myself attaching more than ever to things I understand bring me closer to Hashem, (or God, or HP, whatever floats your boat), like tefillah & brachos. In the meantime, things I've been doing till now because it's what yeshiva guys do, I've been dropping, especially if I feel they're getting in the way of my connecting to Hashem, which I believe to be the עיקר תכלית of this whole yiddishkeit thing anyway. If I'm shvitzing, the tallis ain't going over my head anymore, because then I'll just  be itching to get outta there faster & start resenting the whole thing. You get my drift. Maybe.
My problem is with learning torah; I guess I don't really feel any major connection to God while learning, especially not while learning seemingly redundant & nitpicky sugyas in shas, or while going teef teef teef trying to outdo the next guy with better svaros... At the same time, I'm not willing to drop learning torah, as it's the foundation of our existence v'chulei v'chulei v'chulei.
I guess I'm looking for some mekor as to how learning torah brings us closer to Hashem, no matter what we're learning?
I'm not even sure what I need, I'm probably traumatized from sitting in seder after seder after seder for years on end, while watching the clock & feeling like I was wasting my time, stuck on the yeshiva-guy conveyor belt.
I spoke to a Rebbe, he called it עצת היצר. I don't really think so. I'm not looking to get away from learning; I'm looking to get closer to my learning, so I can appreciate it & perhaps do some more of it, the way it's supposed to ben done.
Any advice is appreciated, but if you dare give me mussar you're gonna be labeled a "conveyor-belt-guy-who-doesn't-really-believe-in-God" so watch out.
Thanks for letting me rant.

I'm gonna do something stupid now & hit "submit" before re-reading everything I just typed to make it more politically correct. Hope I don't join the ranks of Dr. Seuss.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Mar 2021 16:24:

I would have to disagree with you slightly. The first time someone actually told me that sex is optional, it was mind blowing. Not because I disagreed. Rather because I had never though about it.

Hi everyone, I hope this is the right place to ask this, if not I'm happy to repost elsewhere. I have lengthy commutes and like to listen to podcasts and shiurim (in addition to music) while I'm driving. I've had a difficult time finding audio shiurim relating to P addiction/related topics. Does anyone know of any good speakers/classes, ideally accessible on TorahAnytime or another app so I can easily play them in the car? Thanks in advance!

Grant400 wrote on 05 Mar 2021 14:36:

Thank you for this, but I do not think you're correct on several points. Firstly, are you an addict, you write about them and their thoughts and feelings, so I'm just wonderin'. I was and am an addict. I have sat in groups of meetings with other addicts; I have NEVER once heard one of these addicts say, "Sex is a necessity by me (and I will die without it)." Not alcoholics either. They and I know that it's possible to live without sex, and personally, it's kinda insultin' your rhetoric (and others) as if we are not only sick, but downright stupid as well. Because we're addicted to sex, drink, drugs, etc., do you think our intelligence is on empty? We need to be scolded that sex is optional to the point that if we don't follow our lust desire, whatever that may be, we won't die? Is that a novelty? We know we can live without it, but we don't wanna; it's enjoyable and fun and pleasurable and addictin'. And yes, to the guy who wrote previously that it's not fun and we shouldn't think like that, who is he kiddin'? And then you wanna prove your point from the Tzaddik and Gaon HaDor Reb Moshe zt"l? What are you gonna prove? That one can abstain from sex for ten years? If Reb Moshe can do it, we can!? Seriously, where is the logic in that? We know he was great; we know there were other tzaddikim that did supernatural stuff as well? Maybe we'd like to emulate them, but what practically has that got to do with us? And don't respond please with, "I just wanted to prove that it's possible," for we know good and well that it's possible. I'll clue you in on somethin' else as well; we know that our actions are harmful as well - to us, to our loved ones, to our friends, to the world and to God, and yes, we can be reminded of that as a method of prevention, but we know that, and yet, we engage in those behaviors anyway.

I do apologize for the rant' you are doin' great things here, but please, let's not get carried away with one poster who might have possibly compared sex to food, we know good and well that we need to eat for survival, and we know good and well that survival will continue even if we don't follow-thru on our lustful desires, but it's extremely appealin' to us, and it's difficult to stop. There are methods out there that can help us guys, but tellin' us that we won't die is not one of them.

thanks so much

wilnevergiveup wrote on 05 Mar 2021 09:54:

"Sex is optional "

It seems you keep misunderstanding what the point here is. It's not about chizuk. It's not about manageability. It's not to tell you that it's super easy once you believe this mindset. It's not even to convince someone that he never has to have sex again in is life, and he shouldn't be concerned about it.

All it is - is to break the preconceived notion of sex addicts and chronic lusters, as to the biological necessity of a sexual high. We trained ourselves over years that it is a necessity like food, and sometimes we cannot see withholding as an option at all.

Realizing that it is a misunderstanding can give one the ability to say no in the face of something he thought was biologically impossible.

Is it hard? Yes. Can it still be unmanageable for many (even if we know someone who can withhold)? Yes. IS IT PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE? YES. So singling someone out, isn't here to prove it's manageable, it's to prove it's possible.

So yes, knowing that it is possible can help someone, even if he isn't as capable as the person who proved it. Fighting against something physically not possible is a different battle than something that is possible although extremely difficult. (I believe that's why  very often when a record is broken, many people can break it after.)

Hi all!!

I’m married for 8 years now. I’ve been on and off this site over the years. I’ve BH gained a lot, I’ve spoke years back to reb Dov and Reb one day at a time, and others. I’ve been following some threads especially the recent story ones and yeshiva guy’s and others. 

I struggle from time to time with my lust addiction and maybe I will one day write it all out like others have done recently in a story format.

Unfortunately, today from one minute to the next, I fell (was עובר) with something (or more accurate: someone) way beyond anything I’ve ever done before! Oiy. 

I’ve reached out to real people in the past and I now plan on reaching out again to a known rav involved with such things and also with Regesh network. 

additinaly I am starting this new thread and hope to update it every day or few days to help attain accountability and to be in touch with the olam. Although regularly I’m fine and I don’t have anything to update, still I will bl”n update often, in order to help for when the urges hit. 

So today was a terrible fall, I doubt it’s necessary to write out the extent of it. I’m restarting my 90 day journey   And I hope to hear from the olam and to update everyone in the coming days.

Yes, I 100% agree. I probably could have worded point #1 better: all of the things in life feed off of each other. For me personally, procrastination and addiction are two of my biggest problems, and they feed off of each other. Thanks for sharing your insight!