boruch wrote on 30 Jun 2009 17:02:

Dear Boruch - It's not clear to me what you are referring to, as I do not, it turns out, believe SA meetingsare that important. I think I have posted precious little about meetings, as a matter of fact. As for me, I went to only one meeting regularly per week for the first few years and do the same now. I agree completely with most of what you write here and thank you for sharing it.  For me, meetings, step-writing assignments, making calls, and davening, too, are all be-etzem half-measures. What seems to make them work for me and others I know, is only whether through them we obtain an honest relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam. Nothing else really helps. Meetings are not SA, but going to meetings certainly appears to break the lies I told myself that I was really, be-etzem "OK" and just had "a problem". One fellow recently wrote that just being on a phone conference line made his heart race to 200BPM. What is that about? I believe it is an emotional reaction to contacting other real people about our problem. The more of that, the merrier, it seems. I have more to say about this from a Torah perspective but this post is long enough...
Yes, you are right, there are many who do not make it in SA. There are many who do seemingly not "make it" in yiddishkeit, lehavdil, either. I have no experience of problems 2 and 3 you brought up. So nothing to share there, but thanks for letting me know your opinion, though.
Your friend, Dov

I really don't belong here now, but I just have to get this big Yesod off my chest. (I was going to post it in Yaakov's thread in the B"M but it doesn't fit in there right now)

It's common knowledge that we live in a generation of superficiality. Our hearts are like stone and our avodas Hashem can be "Mitzvas anashim milumodoh". A person can easily live his whole life like that and never even realize that something is wrong.

That's all until Hashem sends the addiction in to the picture. The addiction forces us to change our attitude to our whole avodas Hashem and life in general (which are really one and the same). This BTW has been one of my main messages since the early days of the forum.

I believe this is true for everyone, and I believe that we all agree on this. If ANYONE disagrees, it's very important for us to hear your opinion, so please speak up.

To sum up, every addict needs an overhaul.

[until here, I think there's universal agreement.]

The Torah has the power to make that overhaul, when used according to the Manufacturers instructions. {Not all these instructions are obvious to all, from the words of Chazal. Hashem sent Tzadikim in the recent generations that were given the specific task of interpreting the instructions to the people of these generations.} One of the main instructions that's so crucial is that you should WANT the Torah to make the overhaul. (This is BTW also an answer to the "Torah Tavlin" question, see here: rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=614.0 )

When Reb Yaakov or anyone else posts something practical from a Torah source, he's not just building the top floors and he's definitely not trying to build the foundation with glass. Rather he's using the Torah to overhaul the whole business. We can discuss what the prerequisites are, in order for it to help. We can discuss what it takes for the chitzonius to be miorer the pnimius. We can discuss if and how and when action can effect ratzon. But if we think he's trying to build the top floors then we are totally missing his point.   That's my humble opinion. Now I'm ready to hear yours.

Schar Mitzva Be'hai Alma Leka. But think of it this way.
10 days = a lot of Kesher with Hashem and Olam Haba for all eternity
50 days = a heck of a lot of Kesher with Hashem and Olam Haba for all eternity
90 days = Freedom from the addiction in this world too. A whole new opportunity to start LIVING.

Perfect. That's GREAT.

Shalom aliechem,
Welcome aboard this holy site, my name is Noorah BAmram and wish to tell you that Guards Handbooks are everything he says and then some!! (I've went thru them more then once ). I'm on the 90 day wall of Honor and the forum to post my progress, fears, hopes and prayers, to me this a great motivator and you may want to consider it too.

I've found that with this insidious illness that we call lust addiction, support is the key, a person can't go it alone .

Your name "yoish" on this forum will be taken to as Moshe Rabienu  said to Yehoshua "may Hashem save you". we on this holy forum daven and say the same to u- Yoish, Hashem will save you!! Absolutely!! You already took the first step by posting here

Chazak Chazak Vnischaziek

With fiery love to a fellow struggler I humbly remain

Noorah from the house of Amram

Rabbeinu, I want to answer your question together with Me's point. We are not trying to develop a new shitoh, we're trying to make the Torah's shitoh available to everyone. It's true that there are different sorts of addictions and different sorts of people. But if we are successful be"H in laying out the Torah approach "kishulchan aruch"-like a set table ready for the meal, then the overwhelming majority of what every person needs to break free of any addiction will automatically be included. Different types of people [and people with different types of addictions] will just relate to it differently and apply it differently.

P.S. I have to try to keep away from the forum for a couple of days in order to concentrate on a different aspect of this, so don't expect to see me here.

Read the intro to the GYE handbook to see why the standard models of teshuvah can't work for an addict.

When it comes to addiction, forget about saying "never again". In addiction, "Aizehu Chacham, Haro'e es ha'achshav".

Promise yourself that just for today you will stay clean no matter what, even if your tuches falls off!! (But tomorrow, you reserve the right to act out).

Oh, and tomorrow, when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself the same thing!  ;D

E.L, I agree, but if we design a Torah program that gets to the root of ALL addictions, it is not that we are undertaking a LARGER project that will require MORE material and more work, rather it simply means that we may be able to find the core underlying issues of what makes anyone act in addictive, self-destructive manners, regardless of the addiction. And once we find that, we would actually be SIMPLIFYING things, not undertaking TOO MUCH at once. Do you get my drift?

But it may be worthwhile still to focus only on Lust addiction now, since perhaps there are many things about the various other addictions which won't all work with the same strategy. I don't know... That's my question for Battleworn and Boruch... (I am open to either way).

Battleworn, do you think we should focus on building a program for ALL addictions, or should we focus on Lust addiction alone for now, and one day we might be able to use the same pattern to help Yidden in other addiction as well?

guardureyes wrote on 01 Jul 2009 17:48:


Well, right now I am active in three fellowships, SA, OA (Overeater's Anonymous, I am back at the amount I weighed when I got married, 20 years ago, which is 71 lbs less than my all-time high weight of 1 1/2 years ago), DA (Debtor's Anonymous, for the first time in my life I am living with a budget). I think that there are many frum yidden who could do with help in at least one of these three areas and if we can be mekarev libon laavinu sheboshomayim by programs that are free of the influence of NYC Liberals, be they programs modeled on early AA in Akron and Cleveland or be they programs modeled on the religious program of GYE then we are really on to something big.

Naturally others who could qualify for other fellowships, Nicotine Anonymous, Clutterers Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous and others would have a model to use too...

In the meantime, it is avodas Hashem, one day at a time, passing it on to one addict at a time

Dear Kosher Eye's,

Welcome! You have come to the right place!

When you are on GYE You are looking at success right in front of you.

There are things that have to be done in groups with full time support, and this addiction is one of them.

So hold on tight for you are on the ride of your life, and the GYE family train will get you there.

Efshar Letaken

Great. Thank you Boruch... So let's continue the discussion on this thread.

Yakov, will you join us? I believe that between me, Battleworn, Boruch and You, along with Boruch's extensive knowledge of the 12-Step literature and what really works for an addict, and along with Rabbi Twerski's book on the Torah approach to the 12-Steps which one of us should read ("Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!"), we can accomplish great things for klal Yisrael! And if I can get Dov to join us, we would do even better I think, (even though some of us might think Dov is too set in his ways for such a project, I disagree. Shoin, we'll see)  :D

But remember, no attacking, no arguing, only Shalom and mutual respect. I know it's hard  , because these things touch on matters that are so important and dear to all of us, such as Hashem, Torah, RECOVERY, and the future of klal Yisrael (what is more important than that?), but I believe we can accomplish great things together. If there are any disagreements that can't be resolved, I'll take it to Rabbi Twerski bl"n...

I want to just tell everyone that I had a long talk with battleworn today by phone and I now understand that he is looking for a way to take the most profound Yesodos of the Torah and of the 12-Steps and build a program that will have great success in rebuilding even a real addict, from the ground up. Just like the 12-Steps does, but with a Torahdik approach. This is a profound undertaking and we hope to work together with him to do this. Who knows, maybe one day, even the most hopeless frum addicts will be able to join frum groups that work with this NEW approach and be even MORE successful than the 12-Steppers are today. He wants to take out of the Torah all the Yesodos of rebuilding a person, learning to get honest with ourselves, letting go of the self, being born anew, etc... I believe that if we can build such a program it would be a great To'eles for Klal Yisrael.

But until such a program exists - with a clear set of guidelines, and until there are groups and sponsors that work with these ideas, we will have to go with the second best option for those who really need a "remake", and continue suggesting the SA groups for those who have tried the first 13 steps of the handbook and are still not seeing success, just like Rabbi Twerski has been doing for the last 20 years - in absence of anything better. Battleworn, do you agree?

I believe that people like Boruch and Yakov can be instrumental in helping battleworn and me develop such a new program. And I think that the yesodos in this thread are already a great start. But it needs a lot of polishing. Also, there may be some perceived disagreements in Hashkafa between the 12-Steps and a Torah approach. At least battleworn thinks there are (see his "Important Note" in "s"), although I disagree. My view is that there is no disagreement at all, it is a matter of perception. But that's no big deal. In such cases, we can bring our question to Rabbi Twerski for resolution. In general though, I think we may be onto something BIG.

Thank you battleworn. I am here to work together with you on this monumental project. And all who want to join are welcome. Klal Yisrael needs you!

In response to Dov's post here a few days ago.

Something was bothering me when I joined the phone conference yesterday, and is mentioned also in your post. Most addictions allow for an instant "good feeling" - which is used when we otherwise might not be. I know for certain, that the apparent necessity to indulge is not always during a time when one does feel down - it can happen straight after an otherwise very productive and rewarding day. Similarly, the urge does not (always) base itself on an awareness of the good feeling that it will bring, sometimes there is only physical pain, and that is pain about which I might be acutely aware, as oppose to the obvious, immediate feeling of frustration and annoyance post the fall, which seem to be easily ignorable.

Please let me know how to understand these ideas.

Philpher

Wow, to be called Rabbeinu by Boruch for the first time is not something I take lightly  ;D

I want to just tell everyone, Yakov and Boruch, that I had a long talk with battleworn today by phone and I had missunderstood what he was trying to do. He is not just suggesting we build the top floors with a Torahdik approach. He is looking for a way to take the most profound Yesodos of the Torah and of the 12-Steps and build a program that will have great success in rebuilding even a real addict, from the ground up. Just like the 12-Steps does, but with a Torahdik approach. This is a profound undertaking and we hope to work together with him to do this. Who knows, maybe one day, even the most hopeless frum addicts will be able to join frum groups that work with this NEW approach and be even MORE successful than the 12-Steppers are today. He wants to take out of the Torah all the Yesodos of rebuilding a person, learning to get honest with ourselves, letting go of the self, being born anew, etc... I believe that if we can build such a program it would be a great To'eles for Klal Yisrael.

But until such a program exists - with a clear set of guidelines, and until there are groups and sponsors that work with these ideas, we will have to go with the second best option for those who really need a "remake", and continue suggesting the SA groups for those who have tried the first 13 steps of the handbook and are still not seeing success, just like Rabbi Twerski has been doing for the last 20 years in absence of anything better. Battleworn, do you agree?

I believe that people like Boruch and Yakov can be instrumental in helping battleworn and me develop such a new program. Yakov and Boruch, do you want to join this revolutionary undertaking? I think Battleworn's thread over here is already a great start. But it needs a lot of polishing. Also, there may be some perceived disagreements in Hashkafa between the 12-Steps and a Torah approach. At least battleworn thinks there are, although I disagree. In such cases, we can bring our question to Rabbi Twerski for resolution. For example, Battleworn believes that the 12-Steps don't believe in Hishtadlus and Milchemes Hayetzer, while the Torah approach does. Maybe I missunderstand him. My view is that there is no disagreement at all, it is a matter of perception. So these type of questions will have to be ironed out. But in general, I think we may be onto something BIG.

Thank you battleworn. I am here to work together with you on this monumental project. And all who want to join are welcome. Klal Yisrael needs you!