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27 Oct 2021 21:24

wilnevergiveup

DavidT wrote on 27 Oct 2021 17:37:

wilnevergiveup wrote on 13 Jun 2021 08:23:
This thread has got me thinking, and I have a serious question. If you read through most of the threads here on GYE, especially the older ones there was "Dov" and co, who promoted the "12 Step" method and then there were the ones who cried, "The Torah and mussar has everything covered." They would say, we don't want to hear anything that doesn't have a source in the sefarim, I don't care if it works or doesn't, if it was right, it would be somewhere in the seforim etc.

I find it fascinating that here, the 12 steppers are the ones "protecting G-d" wow, that's a strange to me.

So my question is this, I understand that GYE is spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on this new Flight 2 Freedom program and that it's based of of the SMART recovery program. Is it being built at least with the little amount of G-d that is in the 12 steps or is it forgetting about Him entirely. What I mean by this is, while the severe "struggler" may not relate to the spiritual issues and focusing on it doesn't help them, bringing G-d into their lives does.

The new program, it seems, is being built for those who are not "powerless" (otherwise it really makes no sense). I understand that the target crowd is indeed not addicts, and that they may very well be the majority of those struggling. The ones who are not so deep into this, the ones who are falling here and there, the ones who are still unmarried the ones who it hasn't affected their life that much, what the the real reason that they want to stop? Is in not G-d? Is there a different reason? 

The new program sounds amazing, I am all for it, I am just wondering if G-d is going to make an appearance.

Now that the "Flight to freedom" is already being used for a few months, we can revisit the comment above.
First of all, SMART recovery is for addicts just as the 12 step is. They just have a different approach.
 "Flight to freedom" has many concepts from the SMART recovery program with many added ideas and tools. They do have God in the program like prayers and meditation. 

You used the flight2freedom program? Does it work? 

Do you have an agenda? Why bring up an old and dead thread?
Category: SMART Recovery
27 Oct 2021 17:37

DavidT

wilnevergiveup wrote on 13 Jun 2021 08:23:
This thread has got me thinking, and I have a serious question. If you read through most of the threads here on GYE, especially the older ones there was "Dov" and co, who promoted the "12 Step" method and then there were the ones who cried, "The Torah and mussar has everything covered." They would say, we don't want to hear anything that doesn't have a source in the sefarim, I don't care if it works or doesn't, if it was right, it would be somewhere in the seforim etc.

I find it fascinating that here, the 12 steppers are the ones "protecting G-d" wow, that's a strange to me.

So my question is this, I understand that GYE is spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on this new Flight 2 Freedom program and that it's based of of the SMART recovery program. Is it being built at least with the little amount of G-d that is in the 12 steps or is it forgetting about Him entirely. What I mean by this is, while the severe "struggler" may not relate to the spiritual issues and focusing on it doesn't help them, bringing G-d into their lives does.

The new program, it seems, is being built for those who are not "powerless" (otherwise it really makes no sense). I understand that the target crowd is indeed not addicts, and that they may very well be the majority of those struggling. The ones who are not so deep into this, the ones who are falling here and there, the ones who are still unmarried the ones who it hasn't affected their life that much, what the the real reason that they want to stop? Is in not G-d? Is there a different reason? 

The new program sounds amazing, I am all for it, I am just wondering if G-d is going to make an appearance.

Now that the "Flight to freedom" is already being used for a few months, we can revisit the comment above.
First of all, SMART recovery is for addicts just as the 12 step is. They just have a different approach.
 "Flight to freedom" has many concepts from the SMART recovery program with many added ideas and tools. They do have God in the program like prayers and meditation. 
Category: SMART Recovery
26 Oct 2021 17:31

DavidT

Striving Avreich wrote on 26 Oct 2021 17:27:
Why does GYE recommend making Shevuos at the outset?

They don't. 

omekhadavar asked​ for advice  "I would like to make a neder for at least 20 days not to use the internet unnecessarily, but I'm not sure how to phrase it. Advice would be appreciated." 

-----------------------------

Normally making vows is frowned upon by our sages as with someone playing with fire, but when it comes to girding oneself from this temptation, we find that making vows is praised by the Torah and by Chazal, as the Mishna says in Pirkei Avos: “Nedarim siyag la’prishus – Nedarim are a fence for abstinence ”. And as the Pasuk says, "Nishbati Va'akayeima, lishmor Mishpatei Tzidkecha - I have vowed and will uphold it, to guard your righteous laws". And also it says "Nishba Lehora Velo Yamir - oseh eileh lo yimot le'olam - He who swears to prevent bad and does not nullify... he will never falter". And Chaza"l also say that Bo'az swore to guard himself from transgressing when Ruth came to him in the silo at night, as it says "Chai Hashem, Shichvi ad haboker - In the name of G-d, lay here until morning".

However, as important and helpful as vows can be in fighting addiction, they are also spiritually dangerous. The addiction is very often more powerful than vows. Therefore, it is vital that we learn how to make vows in a way that will work and be spiritually safe. Instead of fighting the addiction head-on through the vows, we can make vows that will help us "walk around" the addiction. Do not make a make vow that you will not act-out or look at inappropriate material. Many addicts have tried this and failed miserably, because when under a lust attack it is very hard for our yiras shamayim to stop us. Rather, we can make a vow (for just a week at first) that before we give in, we will first have to do a list of things. For example:

I swear - for one week - that before I ammotzi zera livatala I will do two things: (1) call a friend or family member and shmuz for at least 5 minutes and (2) take a 15 minute walk.

Alternatively, we can make a vow that if we give in we will have to do something after we fall, for example:


  • go to the Mikva
  • take a half hour walk
  • give a donation to Tzedaka.
  • do 100 pushups
26 Oct 2021 16:21

anonymousmillenial

DavidT wrote on 26 Oct 2021 13:56:
First of all If you feel challenged by nisyonos in the area of kedusha, you are actually in good company. Chazal describe the temptation, מתאווה להם ומחמדתן – man desires and craves these things. ( מכות פרק ג' משנה ט״ו ) There is a natural craving for immorality implanted in all of us.

Don’t let the yeitzer hora succeed. Even if you have lost many battles, you
will win the war. The Siyata Dishmaya you were witness to in the time that you did manage to stay strong assures you that you can and will succeed.

The Tzadik falls seven times and yet he rises (Mishlei 24:16): This is the lifeline of a person who stays focused, even in the face of adversity. Regardless of any past mistakes, he persistently carries on. This puts him in a superior category, even when his present madraiga is perhaps unsatisfactory.

Fighting the present ugly yeitzer hora is our chance to show beloved devotion to Hashem. When Moshiach comes, there will be plenty of avodah for us to do. Nevertheless, this glorious opportunity which is being offered to us now,will be over

Rabbi Twerski once wrote as follows about someone who was convinced he could never give up these behaviors:

His conviction that he cannot overcome the addiction is the addiction talking to him, saying, “Give up the fight, it’s useless. You’ll never succeed, so why put yourself through the misery.” Other than just try to stop, what has this young man done to make essential changes in his character? That’s where one should begin.

I attended an AA meeting where the speaker was celebrating his 20th year of sobriety. He began by saying, “The man I once was, drank. And the man I once was, will drink again” (but the man I am today, will not). Alcoholics who have not had a drink for many years but have not overhauled their character are “dry drunks” and will often drink again. The same is true for this addiction.

How does one become a different person? By working diligently on improving one’s character traits. Learning how to manage anger, to rid oneself of resentments, to overcome hate, to be humble, to be considerate of others, to be absolutely honest in all one’s affairs, to admit being wrong, to overcome envy, to be diligent and overcome procrastination. In short, one should take the Orchos Tzaddikim(I’m sure it’s available in English), and go down the list of character traits, strengthening the good one’s and trying to eliminate the bad ones. This does not happen quickly. When one has transformed one’s character and has become a different person, one will find that this “new person” can accomplish things that the old person could not.


Thank you very much DavidT for your warm words of chizuk.

It's very true what you write. In order to overcome these challenges, we need to become a new person. Perhaps that's the reason we have those challenges to start with. We go in as person A and we come out the other end as person B. Person B might have battle scars that will last him a lifetime. But in the end, person B will be a stronger, healthier and more tolerant person. And, as you wrote, we have to be patient with ourselves and can't expect instant result.
26 Oct 2021 13:56

DavidT

First of all If you feel challenged by nisyonos in the area of kedusha, you are actually in good company. Chazal describe the temptation, מתאווה להם ומחמדתן – man desires and craves these things. ( מכות פרק ג' משנה ט״ו ) There is a natural craving for immorality implanted in all of us.

Don’t let the yeitzer hora succeed. Even if you have lost many battles, you
will win the war. The Siyata Dishmaya you were witness to in the time that you did manage to stay strong assures you that you can and will succeed.

The Tzadik falls seven times and yet he rises (Mishlei 24:16): This is the lifeline of a person who stays focused, even in the face of adversity. Regardless of any past mistakes, he persistently carries on. This puts him in a superior category, even when his present madraiga is perhaps unsatisfactory.

Fighting the present ugly yeitzer hora is our chance to show beloved devotion to Hashem. When Moshiach comes, there will be plenty of avodah for us to do. Nevertheless, this glorious opportunity which is being offered to us now,will be over

Rabbi Twerski once wrote as follows about someone who was convinced he could never give up these behaviors:

His conviction that he cannot overcome the addiction is the addiction talking to him, saying, “Give up the fight, it’s useless. You’ll never succeed, so why put yourself through the misery.” Other than just try to stop, what has this young man done to make essential changes in his character? That’s where one should begin.

I attended an AA meeting where the speaker was celebrating his 20th year of sobriety. He began by saying, “The man I once was, drank. And the man I once was, will drink again” (but the man I am today, will not). Alcoholics who have not had a drink for many years but have not overhauled their character are “dry drunks” and will often drink again. The same is true for this addiction.

How does one become a different person? By working diligently on improving one’s character traits. Learning how to manage anger, to rid oneself of resentments, to overcome hate, to be humble, to be considerate of others, to be absolutely honest in all one’s affairs, to admit being wrong, to overcome envy, to be diligent and overcome procrastination. In short, one should take the Orchos Tzaddikim(I’m sure it’s available in English), and go down the list of character traits, strengthening the good one’s and trying to eliminate the bad ones. This does not happen quickly. When one has transformed one’s character and has become a different person, one will find that this “new person” can accomplish things that the old person could not.

25 Oct 2021 14:34

anonymous.lost.everything

I finally figured out what "connected" means to me. That word is all over the SA literature. To me it means interacting with people who know who I really am, and knowing they're no better than me.

Connection makes all the difference in the world as to whether I want my addiction or not. It's the concept of therapeutic resistance. I resist when I'm not connected. I can have all the best individual tools, but if deep down I'm not convinced that I'm better off healthy, I won't use them, and usually it will be subconscious, just like therapeutic resistance is.
Category: Introduce Yourself
24 Oct 2021 18:06

anonymous.lost.everything

I have been reading the Big Book of AA, and it's just worth its weight in gold. The way addicts, especially AA founding members, describe the disease and the program goes a long way towards giving an interpretation of the steps that just clicks.

I especially enjoyed "The Vicious Cycle", a story by an early AA member who really struggled to make God part of his recovery.
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 21:07

anonymous.lost.everything

Trouble wrote on 22 Oct 2021 17:36:

anonymous.lost.everything wrote on 22 Oct 2021 17:27:
I fear that the battle between the people that deep down think addiction is not really a disease and the people that do will never end. 

you might be right. i actually have that battle with myself. i don't know what to believe. i'm pretty sure i was born normal. yet, at 14, i know i wasn't - in this regard. i wasn't scarred, abused or an emotional mess, simply addicted to sex, or a sex addict. still am.

It's the pleasure. It's not because it's sex, it's because of the idea we associate with it. It's out of this world. Very similar to the forbidden pleasure of isha yifas tohar. But hard to define and communicate to others, because we all dress it up differently. And the fact that we didn't understand what we were really doing in the first place meant we didn't stand a chance.
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 17:36

Trouble

anonymous.lost.everything wrote on 22 Oct 2021 17:27:
I fear that the battle between the people that deep down think addiction is not really a disease and the people that do will never end. 

you might be right. i actually have that battle with myself. i don't know what to believe. i'm pretty sure i was born normal. yet, at 14, i know i wasn't - in this regard. i wasn't scarred, abused or an emotional mess, simply addicted to sex, or a sex addict. still am.
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 17:27

anonymous.lost.everything

I fear that the battle between the people that deep down think addiction is not really a disease and the people that do will never end. I think it's okay because it's a choice of how you look at the world. If you have enough distractions and protections you can be an alcoholic your whole life and be fine. Winston Churchill was probably like that. A lot of frum yidden probably are sex addicts at heart and it's okay because they have a wife who wants to save them, so it never becomes a big problem. I say go for it ...
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 17:20

anonymous.lost.everything

Totally agree on the avoda zara terminology, but in the case of addiction the feeling that you are an avoda zara is the goal, anger is just one way to generate that feeling. It even *feels* contrived.

Releasing anger after you already have it is a terrible idea. If someone has an anger problem the can get better only if they stop creating their anger.
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 13:23

DavidT

anonymous.lost.everything wrote on 22 Oct 2021 13:18:

Snowflake wrote on 22 Oct 2021 13:04:
Thanks David,

Unfortunately I fell yesterday. But alright I guess, I won't give up...
I gotta remember that I need not act out on a strong urge. I will try different strategies and see what works out.
Back to day #1.

You probably need to figure out what do *instead* when you get an urge. Also realize that some people have a real compulsion, just choosing not to act out in the traditional sense of the word choosing may not work.

Sorry to hear that you had a fall. I still have the same exact admiration for you. A fall does not define the true essence of a person. 

Yes, I do realize that some people have a real compulsion. Addiction is a real disease. 
22 Oct 2021 13:07

anonymous.lost.everything

Today my anger flared internally and I wanted to hit someone with a steel bar. I started picturing all sorts of ways that I would express my self-righteous anger.

I finally remembered that I'm supposed to surrender these things, and that this is just my addiction looking for a way to feel like I'm God myself.

I surrendered it mentally. I also thought that part of making a decision to entrust my life to my Higher Power is to let Him look after me in ways which I may never understand or even become aware, including things that involve other people.

Even if there are people in my life who are narcissistic, controlling, mean, insecure, powerful, dangerous, manipulative or whatever - even when they really are who I think they are - I still have to put my Higher Power in the driver seat.

Then the anger was gone.

It will be a long slog.
Category: Introduce Yourself
22 Oct 2021 10:59

Hashem Help Me

Welcome to GYE. Great first post. Honest and courageous. Keep posting. As you write you can help yourself come to terms with all the various issues you brought up. May Hashem give you hatzlacha.
Category: Break Free
18 Oct 2021 10:32

anonymous.lost.everything

ARF wrote on 18 Oct 2021 06:50:
Hey bro,
You're going through an incredible rough patch. It's withdrawal. I've been there a few times. Do some excersize and mainly hold on tight and cry. Then cry some more. You"ll be done with it at around 30 days. 
You wrote that The root cause of the addiction *today* is that that feeling is ***wonderful*** to me.
"Wonderful" isn't a feeling. Maybe p*** makes you feel an imaginatory love feeling or an imaginatory safe feeling etc;
Name your feeling and find a more practical and long-lasting solution, rather than feed your addiction.
Caring for you

I hadn't thought about a name for the feeing. How did the pharaoh feel when he was worshipped? I would say liberating.
Category: Introduce Yourself
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