hmmm..... so judging by the amount of thank you's you received, it doesn't seem that the folk here agree with you too much. i am truly humbled by the amount of support i got, and it is somewhat difficult for a haughty fellow like myself to be humbled - it's almost like an exotic dancer attending a rabbi falk seminar.

before i get to "what works for me" or "what hasn't," i just wanna let the fellows know that they should never hold back from throwing the kitchen sink at me; i don't care if it's filled with glass dishes or yesterday's egg salad; it's perfectly fine by me. never delete a sentence or a post on my account. i was told that there were some ferocious nauru jokes going around, using words that even adele would not say on public television; please, don't keep them to yourself.

regarding my personal history and what i have found helpful, i have bared my soul (and more) countless of times here (and like a poster above mentioned - others simply preach), but i will again. i have been addicted to many variations of sex and eroticism and self-pleasuring for a decade or two or three; i have experienced and engaged in many types of recovery as well - therapists, mentors, took oaths and vows, specialists, sa meetings, phone meetings (if cords could only bring back his group - i'm trying to count on one hand how many times i missed one of his calls), read all the books many times over, 90-day challenge, worked the steps, studied mussar, talked to many folks, spoke with my rebbe. there was success there - for extended periods of time as well. and at the same time, like i said, i have engaged in behaviors that not many here can say the same. 

i've been busy the past two months, so i'm doing well, but my intentions for future actions are not good to say the least.

resting on the command ridge, nauru's highest point

May I also chim in a bit the way I see it?... 

GYE covers a wide spectrum of PMO issues. There is the guy who needs 'chizzuk' in shmiras eineim, nisyoises, nfilos, yetzer horah, etc a bucher who falls and masturbates once in a month, or who just figured out he shouldn't do it. For those usually they need the push, chairleeding, say tehilim, make a tafshic, walk beforehand, say ashrei backwards, make jumping Jack's on your hands, you dont want to, your the best etc etc.

Then there are the ones who struggle.... they tried all of those 'Tricks' 8 years ago, they know that it entails more then 'nisyoines', all the above tools might be helpful but it's good for once, they will get back there after saying the whole chumash and Rashi twice, with their feet in ice. Those guys usually know that there is hard work for them in order to get clean, sober, and okay. Therapy, 12 steps, meetings, phone calls, and work work work... 

Now, there is an important place for both of these guys to help others, but one must not forget his place, a guy who came here and got clean in a month with a little chairleeding, has NO idea about addiction, nor should he claim he does, he can and should share what has worked for him, and it will definitely help guys in his stage of struggle, but to come and tell GYE, "I got the trick! Your working hard for nothing, just a few minutes a day that masturbating isnt great and spoof!" Is...... it's like coming on to a cancer center and saying, "I also felt weak, and I ate chicken soup! Drop the chemotherapy!" 

(and the same idea is when they go against a method with absolute terms)

Dont get me wrong, GYE needs guys like that who give ideas, tools, chizzuk, etc especially for newcomers, to which "strugglers" have a hard time relating to, but to think that you've got the "trick" to cure addiction, is a stretch-and rubs on people who really struggle. I've got news for you, No it will not cure them.... 

I hope you understand, and I tried to be very gentle, I wrote and erased a few time so it doesn't come across direct, I hope it doesn't. And I truly appreciate the work of guys like yourself, Imho it is very important.

P.s. about your @trouble request, let's not focus on people, let's stick to topics. (FWIW I think you also dont have a thread about your struggles and what worked for you....)

wilnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2022 11:10:

I agree with everything written here. I did not mean to present self-talk as a method that for sure works for everyone or as a replacement for anything anyone else is doing. It was meant as something that does work a nice percent of the time (surely far from 100%) for other matters (addictive behaviors, low self-esteem, depression, getting better at basketball, etc.), and I started an experiment to see how well it would help people after trying it for 90 days, in an easier way that would make it actually more likely that they would do the self-talk for 90 days. I'm not sure where I came off otherwise, but I was worried that perhaps someone would take this or any other mistaken idea, so I invited "discussion." But instead of discussion, I was met with sarcastic fervor from people who never tried self-talk or read about whether it is effective or not. No one bothered asking if I can post a link to a study about whether it actually works for anything or not. Because the people who posted were just interested in making fun of anything they see, rather than actually discussing the topic.
(If you feel Shtarkandemotional wrote differently, 1. He's not me. 2. He is a very exuberant person and perhaps he overstated things mistakenly. A nice normal non-threatening conversation would have corrected any mis-impressions he gave off.)
The one relevant topic that did come up, about saying things that you don't believe to be true, yielded a nice discussion. Though the poster himself also could not help himself and had to mention his "stance" in a way that accused us of saying things in self-talk that we don't believe in and of lying to ourselves, without 1) actually discussing it with us, and 2) without actually reading the thread. He just heard about the thread and had someone post his definite truth on it.
I don't think these are ways to have a productive discussion.
As an aside, I think the thread did its job. We have a few people trying self-talk, and if they are willing to report their results after 90 days, I will let everyone know how it went. Of course, 5 people's results will not be a proven track record of anything. But it will provide some food for thought.

Regarding Trouble, I don't mean to make any fun. I am genuinely interested in hearing what he has to say, on a separate thread in What Works for Me. (I pledge not to pop in and mock what he says with sarcastic banter.) I have a lot of respect for Trouble. I didn't mean to make fun. Though I do wish he would presenting things on other people's threads in a more refined way.

I'm asking anyone who, like me, genuinely wants to hear Trouble's methods and wants him to open a thread about it in What Works for Me, to please click the Thank You button to show him that you want it.

wilnevergiveup wrote on 06 Apr 2022 11:10:

Wow, my second time today to one of your posts saying a rather simple thing:

Amen!!

I benefit from everyone on this site. I don't believe there is a right or wrong way to do anything, and I am all for trying new things. 

If someone does decide to post about something in a way that it comes across as either guaranteed, either that it works, or that it doesn't, know that it will rub people the wrong way. Being that we are all products of our experiences, we all share different views based on what we have tried. There is no one way and anyone who posts a "Try it and you will see the difference" method, it just reeks of emptiness. If it works for you, say that, if you are trying something new, say that. 

Here are some of the things that come to mind. "Easy Peasy" (however it's spelled) was being promoted as the Messiah of porn addiction. If it would have been promoted here as an idea to try it may have been better received. the same goes for the "Self Talk" thread. Self talk is something that works, but not the way it was promoted in that thread. It's a tool, not a method. I am sure that is what the posters there meant, but it was promoted as "try it and you will see" to which I thought, "Okay, maybe you try it and let me know first".

My point is that threads like this one, or the other ones are perfectly fine but be prepared to defend your position. If you cannot defend your position and the only thing you do is challenge another contribution to this site, that speaks pretty poorly on what you are trying to promote. 

For your information, @Trouble has helped me a lot. Not just his whim, but I find his presence bringing a lot of empathy. From what I gather, he has been through it all, and know batter than anyone what works and what doesn't. You gotta have respect for someone who is here for that long, and still stays connected to the chevra here. I mean, you guys are a contradiction, you are booting someone for not being successful in a thread that is promoting not to judge yourself by your successes. Gosh!

 I don't think @Trouble needs my help, that is not my intention. I guess I just want you guys to stand up to the plate when you are being challenged.

cordnoy wrote on 05 Apr 2022 00:54:

I theorize (yes, just a theory) that the greater one's capacity to learn, the greater his capacity to fantasize. I'm not saying this is the only factor in addiction; of course not. I know there are dozens of factors that go into who is נכשל and I also realize that nearly everyone is struggling.
As for the Rambam, you can disagree with my understanding of the Rambam. If my pshat is bad and you therefore don't want to call me a top bachur, beseder.
If I encounter another source, I will with G-d's help remember to return to this thread and post it.

If I may chime in here with my opinion (just that), I was told when I was already in Yeshiva Gedolah that I was above average, (top is a big word) although I never believed it because of my low self esteem, today I am aware of my abilities in learning. When I was younger I would day dream all day never did well in school and I was told that I was a failure. My fantasy doesn't help me in learning, until today it can be a struggle to focus when I am struck with a fantasy. 

About those sources, I understand them to be taken literal; your brain is filled with Torah, no space for anything else, or always learning, no time for anything else. To me, this only makes sense for guys who can occupy their entire brain space and time with Torah, for guys like me, who want to have both, these Chaza"l may not be relevant. I think it's foolish for me to think that I can view/fantasize and somehow my learning will magically take away the desires for lust. This can be compared to someone trying to lose weight who exercises but doesn't change his eating habits. 

Next opinion, "top guy" or not "top guy", I see everyone struggling. If you want you may be able to say that guys who are deep emotionally often struggle with addictive behaviors. 

@cordny was probably "Top Bachur" in his time, that's why he is taking this apart.

There are many great tactics from managing urges, but they will only be effective if our goal is to stop completely over time, by progressively cutting down more and more. But if we allow ourselves to become complacent by simply keeping our addiction "under control", we will remain addicted to these behaviors. And as we often end up learning later the hard way, this struggle is progressive. It doesn’t get better on it's own, only worse.



Our sages have said: "There is a small organ in a man, if one feeds it - it is hungry, if one starves it - it is satiated". This is a very important Yesod to keep in mind, and it shows how much our Sages understood the nature of this struggle. The more we cut down, and the more distance we put between ourselves and the struggle, the easier it gets.

Day 8: still going! I really want to be done with this addiction. Phone calls really helped me a lot today. Tonight was feel extra anxious, I searched for porn on google. BARUCH HASHEM I didn’t press any websites for a few seconds while I was contemplating my actions. Right away clicked off. I don’t know how I got that strength. Toughest thing ever. Bh still going! Day 8 of many. Hatzlacha to all. Thanks for listening.

News definitely does not help with addiction. Studies show that many people who follow politics are addicted to porn.

bisyata dishmaya wrote on 28 Mar 2022 18:22:

I agree with you bs"d - I think we need a find a way to put more info in the ads that make it clear that there are many levels of struggle and GYE is specifically made to provide help, information and support for people at different levels. I too, always assumed GYE is for porn addicts only. At the same time, Shmiras Einayim and Kedusha are vague terms which I think many associate with Hirhurim and Histaklus, and not necessarily to porn and masturbation. For me, "Struggling with Ta'ava" is a more accurate portrayal.
Perhaps an ad that had more information, or if online, an ad that contained a clickable short video explaining what GYE is and who it is for, will be more effective.

Another major help would be for Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim to recommend it - perhaps by placing their name on a poster within their Mosdos and communities. I know this is a large hurdle that many would not be ready to do, but if you are close enough with a person of influence who can do that, I think that would accomplish a lot.

Markz wrote on 29 Mar 2022 04:45:

You can check in the GYE video section, I think it's there.

I think this is what you are looking for gye.vids.io/videos/a79eddb11d18e6c02e/eli-nash-and-rabbi-yy-jacobs-discuss-p-addiction

YeshivaGuy wrote on 29 Mar 2022 04:37:

I have a hunch it’s too explicit to get onto TorahAnytime….

Markz wrote on 28 Mar 2022 19:08:

I’d be interested to check it out, thanks!
That site is r on my white list though, you can lmk if it’s on TorahAnyTime or something.

A M A Z I N G!!

YG (young guy), this live recording was going around and it maybe awesome for many Gye’s here. 

I was wondering what you think about it?
“The Shame Around Addiction - Is It Helpful or Unhelpful?”
by Eli Nash & R’ YY Jacobson 
Check it out at share.yidpod.com/41g3NEk8RJ5wRXau7