A few thoughts about my first week or so here on GYE. I have been clean 6 out of the 8 days. That it a  good week. I know it can and will get better, but I don’t want to focus on the negative. I have two falls and they came out of nowhere and hit me hard. I am just starting the “Flight the Freedom” program and I am exploring filters and learning my way around here. I am finding the most benefit from the forums. Reading the stories of others struggles confirms to me that I am not some weirdo pervert. Just someone with an addiction who is seeking help. 

I am seeing my mind clear up a little. I focused better on my davening this week. My relationship with my wife was strong and I seemed a little more present in our conversations. I got a little taste of what life can be like without P and M. I know that many bumps and tough days are ahead, but with HaShems help and using this program properly, I feel my future is a little more bright after this last week. Thanks for caring and commenting and just being here…

Horizon wrote on 19 May 2023 16:29:

Regarding the dream, it's very common. Many people have posted about this, and I've experienced it regarding this and other addictions.

The deal helped you stay clean but did it change you, your mindset or you natural response to triggers in any way?

I would recommend getting a strong clarity on why you want to be clean. Weigh the pros and cons. Make a strong decision, learn strategies, learn yourself, make changes and stay connected. 

Sounds easy right? 

You possibly mean even filters? If so, I agree with that. 1. You cannot close ALL the holes; 2. Addiction doesn't go away automatically, when throwing away phones and even filtering! I don't like to give ideas!; 3. Acting out was a problem I started way back before there was internet! Shmiras einayim was the problem and I acted out daily. I felt miserable and guess what: It wasn't addressed and nobody cared when a bochur all of the sudden becomes depressed and doesn't serve hashem with the same vigor due to lack of simcha. I have an axe to grind but I still "try" to think that I'm responsible for my actions! But, please let's not think we're totally free from the addictions, especially acting out!

Just to let you know, we all have these problems and we all struggle on this world with exactly this issue for the rest of our lives. Hashem has nachas ruach to see how we fight to keep his Torah an Mitzvot despite how hard it is. It's so vital to hear messages from maggidim from youre and today that clarify how we fool ourselves into thinking that we "should've" gotten rid of these problems!

All the best,

Gut Shabbos and Simchas Hachaim

ccb45 wrote on 19 May 2023 17:09:

I have my theories on this as well. And I think they are not that far off from yours. My point, however, is that I don't see how it will help me deal with my addiction in any way.

chaimoigen wrote on 19 May 2023 13:14:

R' chaim, your friend expressed my thoughts, and I would add that a standard part of therapy treatment for drug addicts and alcoholics is uncovering what substances did for them.

I have a close childhood friend who is a serious drug addict, nebach. It's a complete Nes that he is still alive. Been in dozens of rehabs, clean on and off, successes and failures with all sort of methods, ups and downs. He's clean, for now, BH. [I am actually talking about a friend here, not myself :)]

He once told me: "Instead of everyone trying to explain to me why drugs are destroying my life, maybe they should be asking, maybe I should be asking myself what is it that the drugs are doing FOR me. In what way are they providing for me a solution ?"

Serious food for thought.

I realized today during Davening that we go from asking for Daas, in order to see our problems, to Hashiveinu, to come close to be able to then take the next step of asking for Slicha and Mechila. Then we ask for Geula from that which is more powerful than us, and subsequently refua....

Ken Yehi Ratzon.

Are you talking about an Ipad (or android equivalent), or something bigger? I know some suggest a iPad but I've seen foldables and all types. Even the slightly bigger ones you cannot carry with you, is problematic! The argument that can be made to "somehow" find a way to filter the phone at least 90% plus timeout features work better in my opinion due to my understanding of the difficulty getting rid of the phones!

I see myself as a basically posh*t person and more or less average. I don't want to rid my iphone because I find it extremely useful. See, with TV, movie theatres, or other addictions, they don't have positive use and use for much good. Smartphones were around for so many years that many people became dependent (not addicted), whilst others got an addicted in the process. If I remember correctly, I had a smartphone way before the Gedolim understood that it's a problem. We got used to it and it serves many functions.

While a smartphone is with you all the time, it's mostly convenient when away from home (at home you got your tablet!). On the street or when visiting someone, you're not really interested in being connected all the time. It's very useful to answer emails (sometimes extremely important), finding your way around using maps, typing text without pushing three times per letter (I know there are smarts; but it's still a hassle). You can connect to a shiur (torah anytime, kol haloshon, the yeshiva net, etc...; I know that you can dial in but you'd need to know all the codes and if you want to search for a shiur, you're out of luck). Even if what I'm saying is not 100% correct, there's still moreh bosor vedam and people are ashamed to always be connected, especially a stable person that has a life (no offenses meant; we all have issues; I meant, some people have life triggers and that will break through ANY rules, as I have experience with people! So a tablet won't help with the above needs and neither a laptop! Why not a filtered smartphone (just like a filtered smartphone, as suggested; even use a kehilah account!).

A tablet, is not useful on the road because it cannot connect to internet (If you get cellular service: 1. it costs a lot and 2, in a way defeats the purpose of the tablet! The tablet also can be used at home, where there are "at times" no people to hold you accountable (not so in the street or public area)! I don't get this whole tablet miracle cure everyone is talking about!

If you go flip phone and want to get used to a different lifestyle, I respect it 100% but this dual phone/tablet, doesn't sound reasonable and can be used with more anonymity than a smartphone! Yes, a kosher smartphone, makes sense and is secheldig, but a tablet! A laptop you cannot take to bathroom or under the covers as easily, but a tablet!

Please educate me. I'll be the first one to admit I'm wrong. And please forgive me for challenging the suggestion.

Thanks. 

rabbi shais taub on it
www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1761295/jewish/God-of-Our-Understanding-Jewish-Spirituality-and-Recovery-from-Addiction.htm

i never saw a clear answer of the rebbe about it but in general all the ideas of the 12 steps are basic concepts in chassidus, the baal shem tov thought over and over that g-d loves every jew like an only child, pumishments in torah are from love like a father cleans his child from shmutz. etc etc. (some jews educated without chassidus have a hard time with thses ideas. check this out www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1761295/jewish/God-of-Our-Understanding-Jewish-Spirituality-and-Recovery-from-Addiction.htm
(and really also in niglah but in parts less studied or emphasized in the yeshivish world for example this that we have a g-d who loves us no matter what is a gemarah kidushin 36, and its clear psukim.)

I'm so happy to that I was able to help you, Shtarkandemotional.
Thank you for the chizuk of your post. It's tremendous chizuk to me to see that I am able to help others in this area by my posts.
You are absolutely correct in what you wrote.
I want to add some more thoughts:
We can live a life on the defensive or on the offensive. If one is addicted to fantasizing and lusting, he is guaranteed to be constantly battling, constantly fighting, falling rising fighting falling rising and so on. And that's assuming he hasn't given up, G-d forbid! That's assuming he's a ben Torah who's still fighting day in and day out, may Hashem help him to stay strong! But very likely, this person will at some point come to feel a terribly devastating יאוש, because he will begin to feel and see that there will never be an end to the pain and battles and falling and rising if he continues down the course he is going; and it's so painful and so destructive and so tiring. And, in fact, as long as he keeps fantasizing, I think he could be right! Perhaps there will never be an end to his misery and battles if he keeps fantasizing! He's pretty much correct! It's similar to losing your life to a heroin addiction. THIS WAS ME NOT LONG AGO!!!!!! I WAS THAT GUY! As long as you are taking the drug (fantasy), you CANNOT win long term!
Alternatively, we can recognize that lust and fantasy is the source of this entire battle. We can gently train our minds to move on from fantasy and lustful thoughts and come to live a life on the offensive, a life in which we accomplish, feel gevaldig, feel energized, feel in control of ourselves, feel in control of our lives. When occasionally the yetzer puts you on the defensive, okay, you deal with him then! That's life! But it's an entirely different world to not be on the defensive 24/7 because you have eradicated the root cause of the entire problem. When you recognize what lust is, what fantasy is, the FAKEKITE that it is, how disgusting it is, how ruinous it is to your life, marriage, and other relationships, and you just decide, "You know what, I'm going to EMBRACE REALITY even though it's painful at times, I'm going to grow up, I'm going to deal with the pain of living a real life and not numb my life with drugs and lust," it's a whole different world. It's exhilarating. You feel alive and not dead. You are free not a slave. You do this by training yourself, with compassion, to move on from thoughts and obsessions of fantasy and lust and focus your mind and days on productive and desirable thoughts and actions. The choice is ours.
Fantasy is the problem. It's an addiction. It's painful to break free of an addiction, ask any addict to any substance. It is possible, though, with the right tools and approaches. It is possible to go from a life of being the punching bag of your own fantasies and urges at every moment of your life to living a life in which you rarely think about these things and when they do come up occasionally, you deal with them and then move on.
Hatzlocho rabbah.

5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 15 May 2023 20:56:

I haven’t been so active on GYE… but this man’s posts always hits my core. Firstly it’s amazing your so far in this battle. It shows that your so correct on the way you understand this battle. Yesterday I didn’t read through the whole post but I skimmed through it and one line you wrote struck me - you sounded your internal alarms that you’re fantasizing now and it’s a dangerous territory. This showed me that that’s the main part of the fight. People don’t realize that.. 
Personally I have a lot of gedarim in place etc. but I always struggle with getting rid of the taivah itself. (I assume many people here struggle with that) last night I felt that taivah building up again. Or we can call it fantasy.. although it was such a quick passing thought.. always sounding like what if I do XYZ. Or imagining if I do XYZ or thinking about how it can feel etc but I thought to myself this is what that guy on GYE meant. Now is the time to sound the internal alarms that we are in dangerous territory because or else we’ll find a way to act on our taivah. It just gets stronger and stronger from there! Don’t let it grow! 
Bh this tactic worked and because i stopped that ugly face early on in the “fight” it’s much easier. I recommend to all of GYE to try this idea.. and even more, understand that you might not realize the root of all your battles. Hatzlacha and thank you for helping me! 

chaimoigen wrote on 17 May 2023 03:46:

Thank you for the direct and peaceful post. I am new here and normally feel strange sharing since we have seasoned members handling things. I still feel that way, but after people suggested others get more involved and out of the shadows, I feel like "why not"? I have no maarachos on how to stop, I am still breaking in myself- we know there is inspiration, motivation, partners, mentors, groups, books and all the rest. For me, the sugyos of yosef etc. help with derhoibenkeit and make me remember I'm a yid, which is valuable in itself (recently wrote a nice shtikel about it- is there somewhere I might post it?).
But I think most of all, what I need, and perhaps others as well (it feels too strange to suggest directly to a mentch what he needs) is to change my orientation to internet connected tech. For me, I almost have muscle memory to search for porn on my phone because I have used it so much for that. But not my computer, wife's phone or iPad etc., because I just haven't used them for that (not so much anyway). Meaning, lots of times it is just the availability+boredom+"this is what I am used to doing" that leads me to it. I recently took off my Chrome app and youtube, and even though I can still access everything through other means, even on the phone itself, it has become so much easier. I am slightly lazy to do it in a way I am not used to, it feels funny going on a different browser that I don't normally use. B'kitzur, changing the orientation to the device itself and how I use it, seems to be very important to my help. Especially since I tend to have issues with compulsiveness in other things too. Changing things a bit makes a difference.
From what you wrote, it sounds like you have not fallen as much as me (I mean that respectfully, not making light), so I hope you do not feel offended by what I wrote.
L'maase, the details don't make much difference.  Meaning, even if you only looked a little bit, and it didn't lead to masturbation, and you came to post here, and you went back to learning, if it bothers you so much, good for you for helping yourself. 
I don't why I feel the need to say this (actually it is probably because I want support), but I do not know if my gisha is right, and I am not even sure I have makom to say anything because an addicted mind can't think straight, but here we are.
Now I can slink back to my corner.

Thank you. I appreciate your points, Grant.
I'm going to take this one step at a time. And try to figure out what at the right tools to help me through experiencing them...

Grant, Captain and HHM, you asked about triggers, access, and situations. 
Of course it was a device. Oy. what else?

It's filtered, and I don't usually have it on me [on purpose]. But I was searching casually.
The search term was truly innocuous. The re-direct, and "hole" in the filter was not intentional.
I clicked a few times after that (and BH stopped).
The filter caught and blocked most, but not all, of the toxic, intoxicating sewage. But I clicked a few times... even after I knew where i was going. ARgghhhh
I can no longer, WILL NO LONGER live with that, I need to be clean, I don't want to be that way anymore.  [but perhaps for the grace of the fact that i stopped and put it away and decided to post....]

But if I am honest, someone of my intelligence and experience knows that  "searching casually" is not innocuous. [I generally try, based on experience, not to search without a specific goal and need.]  I think that deep down, I was probably going looking for an "unintended casualty". I have some thoughts about triggers that were there that I will probably post about, as I formulate my thoughts better.

But my first thought about taking a positive step [in the direction of עזיבת החטא] was actually what you wrote, Grant, in your earlier post, about being constantly vigilant and not letting my guard down, being alert for the constant battle. I try to learn from a Sefer on Shmiras Einayim every day, but lately I have just been looking briefly and quickly, instead of "getting into it". I havent been focusing on this weakness and working on myself in this area.  complacency is a terrible trap. I have been Zocheh to change for the better in the past, I need to continue to do so.  

People in recovery might talk about taking the first step. I don't think I am an addict, but I KNOW that I am infected with a Yetzer and without help from Hakadosh Boruch Hu I won't be able to withstand any Nisyonos.
And the Gemora says that we struggle with the Yetzer Hora every day and : אלמלא הקב״ה עוזרו לא יוכל לו
I think the language indicates that He will HELP me - meaning that I need to be fighting and only then will He give me the Bracha of victory.
Thats where I am starting tonight.
I will also dig deeper, but first lines of defense first [and ill try to fix the filter, too].

I'd appreciate (gentle) suggestions, please

 

This is from Dov:

Okay so the difference is very simple, but it's very hard to see when a person is actually in the fish bowl itself, looking out. There are many levels of honesty and each has a different effect on the person who needs help.

First, is the situation of a person who is living a double life. Pretty much everyone around him especially the people who are closest to him, see him very differently than he is. This may also include his own wife w whom he is having sex with occasionally and naturally expects she is the only one, and students who are being influenced by this person partially based on their perception of him. These kind of relationships are not just a matter of information or what the person says, but our assumptions about the way a person really is.

Living a double life (ongoing geneivas da'as of identity) takes a tremendous toll on the person. Eventually it takes a tremendous toll on those they affect - whether they are caught and exposed, or not. They do not need to be exposed to the public, but they need to be exposed to somebody, to 'come out', as it were. And that needs to be with real people, not with cows with big brown eyes, not with usernames. But with people who are real. Until they do, they are living a double identity in every area of their lives and it won't work. The game is still on. But who are they supposed to it open up to? The person has to be safe. We don't want to destroy someone's reputation in the community c'v - their family shouldn't be made to suffer more unnecessary suffering. That's why there are anonymous meetings in Lakewood, Williamsburg, Flatbush, crown heights, golders Green, Stamford Hill, Monsey, borough Park, Baltimore, Miami, Los Angeles, Ramat Beit Shemesh, Yerushalayim, and a ton of other cities all over the world. Quite a few of those places have over 100 people attending meetings and these meetings have been ongoing and successful for over 20 years in most of these places. No one is being outed, no rabbis, roshei kolel, businesspeople, people in shidduchim, etc, are being outed in their communities. If they were, these meetings would have disbanded long ago. And they are anonymous. I've been heavily involved with this forum (and the founder of GYE) for 15 years (the first 6 years has time to be posting on the forum for three to four hours a day) and bH speak to hundreds of members yearly - So I'm not talking out of a hat here, when I say that GYE is not based on anonymity, but on secrecy. Anonymity from each other, is just secrecy. And it makes perfect sense on an open , web-based forum like this! But That's why it can't really help people with serious problems. People living a real double life. People who might actually be addicts. Most people here are not addicts of course, but just have desires and don't yet know how to deal with them. That's perfectly normal, and has nothing to do with addiction.

Some people need real help, not advice, not sharing with usernames. But actual people who have been there and are clean for years because they are working a program or some sort of system that actually works. The forum does not possess that at all and never has. And it can't, for the simple reason that I explained above. It's still secret. It's preserving and protecting our habit, not solving the problem of self-lying.

iwillmanage wrote on 15 May 2023 21:00:

On the simplistic level, it can be practiced by all - as in the non-fightin' mode, but at its core, it is a method geared for program folk - especially those with addictions.