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15 Aug 2023 05:31
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No Mask
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I thought a lot about it It passes my mind almost every day I’m not sure sometimes Sometimes in my matzev its true And sometimes it’s the yetzer hora who wants to get me down [עי' תניא פרק כ''ו כ''ז] Also there is a voice that says who cares what you think the point is the actions Yes addict no addict, that’s not the point lets talk from a Jewish perspective, if someone goes out with a prostitute there is punishment, for being an addict there isn’t on the hand, הרהורי עבירה קשים מעבירה there is a vort I think from the kotzker, הרהורי עבירה קשים מעבירה, זינדיג אפ און גיי ווייטער, ליג נישט און די שמוטץ
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14 Aug 2023 18:04
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connected
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Found it:
cordnoy wrote on 22 Jun 2023 16:06:
And one other thin': Regardless of your particular fetish or fantasy, regardless of your particular behaviors and no matter the extent, do not fall for the trap that you are unique because of it. Can trauma play a role? Yes it could. Can your specific upbringin' bring about certain particular fantasies, habits and actions? Yes. Do some folk engage in calls, some in pics, masturbation, many in porn, some in massage parlors, strip clubs or prostitutes? Yes. Generally, that is a sign of your risk-aversion level or your opportunity options; it does not mean necessarily that you are further along in this addiction or bad habit than the other. If someone thinks about sex all day, but does not masturbate, he may be more addicted than the fellow who visits an escort every three months. If one undresses every fellow in Shul on either side of the mechitzah no matter the time, he may be more addicted that the fellow who cheats on his wife with the secretary. I am not bein' defensive, for I fall into all those categories.
What else is there to say? Just one word...... Godspeed!
Thanks again, C.
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14 Aug 2023 16:06
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connected
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Day 1 (maybe)
I saw a post from Cordnoy a while back which gave me a proper punch where I needed it.
The idea was basically as follows: The fact that someone doesn't do all sorts of stuff (prostitutes, massage parlors, etc.) doesn't make him a lesser addict than someone who does. All this means is that he's just more risk-averse, so he'll stay in fantasy land and be very careful when doing what he does.
When I read that, I felt it was tailored directly for me.
Whenever I'd read posts that included such escapades, I'd pat myself on the back and say, "See? I'm not an addict." Such posts always reinforced the lie.
But the truth is, I am, by nature, very risk-averse in every area of life. Given the amount I think about sex, I can safely assume that if not for this tendency, I'd have some exciting stories to share... maybe an STD or two. I might even be posting from the prison computer.
Okay, it's impossible to judge what I would've done had I had a different personality, but thank you, Cordnoy, for waking me from that slumber.
If anyone knows which post I'm referring to and can point me in that direction, please do so, and you'll have my gratitude.
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13 Aug 2023 14:58
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Shteeble
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From the Handbook:
Shteeble wrote on 17 Jun 2011 04:46:
Overhauling our character traits
If we continue to experience falls again and again, then something far more fundamental in our character traits may be absent.
The emotional maturity of an addict can often be at the level of a two year old.
When we don’t get what we want, we feel like crying, kicking and screaming.
We never learned how to deal properly with pain, anxiety, resentment, stress or anger.
We have always used the addiction to hide inside ourselves,
and we refrained from mature emotional interaction with others.
While our peers were growing up and learning about L I F E from the world around them,
we were zoning out into our fantasy worlds of self-pleasure and escape.
And so we often remained as emotionally immature as a little child.
When one has transformed one’s character and has become a different person,
one will find that this “new person” can accomplish things that the old person could not.
(Attitude Handbook Attitude #18)
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13 Aug 2023 14:44
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redfaced
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5Uu80*cdwB#^ wrote on 13 Aug 2023 14:17:
I am going through the wringer.
I had a terrible night filled with the worst possible triggering dreams alternating with awful "regular" nightmares. In the triggering dreams I was fighting so vividly I felt I was fighting the nisayon while awake. I was literally oimed in nisayon in these dreams. I remember hearing my voice in the dreams throughout the night "Don't look!" "But I want to SO bad!" "Don't look!" etc on and on. I ended up managing to never look in the dreams, but I caught the imagery out of the corner of my eye ONE TIME in the first dream before looking away and that was enough to send me reeling the entire night. I'm sure others have experienced this. It's an unbelievable thing that this addiction is so deeply rooted that it penetrates even the arena of our dreams.
Woke up this morning feeling terrible even though I should have felt like a superhero.
I ran to take a freezing water until my hyperventilation from the ice-cold water made me feel start to feel a little faint so I got out.
I then managed to quickly go to shul and learned halacha for ~45 minutes before davening, which went well.
Now I'm here. I feel uncomfortable and worn out but THIS IS MY AVODAH. I heard Rabbi Meir Simcha Sperling say on the Vayimaen clip today after I davened Shacharis that we are like Navy Seals in Hashem's army, להבדיל אלף הדבולת. Very inspirational to me.
I do not care that my intellect is trying to dream up a hundred treif svoras why it should be muttar for me to be מוציא זרע לבטלה right now. "Oh, it will help you learn better because you'll feel more relaxed." "Really it's for your benefit because of this or that."
I WILL NOT LISTEN TO MY YETZER HARA IN DISGUISE AS A LAMBDAN!!!
I will not budge. I will not give up. I will suffer the pain that is dealt to me in order to do what is right. With Hashem's Help, this storm will be over soon.
נעשה ונשמע.
Have a great day, everyone!
Says something pretty good about you . if even in your state of subconscious dreaming you are also fighting the Nisayon
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13 Aug 2023 14:24
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chaimoigen
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cordnoy wrote on 13 Aug 2023 04:13:
cordnoy wrote on 04 Jul 2014 07:38:
There were two issues that were layin' heavily on my mind regardin' my last fall.
1. How could it take a mere few minutes of givin' in to lust to fall backwards in to the filth I was into from over 13 months beforehand (granted that there were another two falls in between)? Haven't I learned enough with therapist and SA group to be a bit smarter than that? Have I zero control? Ok...lust, but so low (and sorry that I'm not delineatin' here).
2. Why was I in such emotional pain this time? Why did it hurt so much? Last time (after 115 days of bein' clean), it was an enjoyable week with three falls? Why was this time (after 158 days) so short and nauseatin'?
After speakin' with an expert today, it seems that there is one answer to both. Yes, I am in recovery (I have not recovered - ain't that the truth?...I am in the recovery process), but recovery does not mean "free from lustin'." That can be an outcome if one is workin' the steps or whatever way he is recoverin', but the definition of recovery is not free of lust. Recoverin' means to understand and accept that I am an addict. It is the understandin' that I know and realize that this poison will make my life unmanageable (as it has in the past, and as it will do in the future). Recovery means the comin' to grips that the female body and sex in general is not to be worshipped and sought after, and if I can't have my fill then it affects my entire life. A woman on the street is merely that...she is a woman on the street, and she has nothin' to do with me. Relations with my wife is not my business! if it happens, it happens. [We take this station break to point out and emphasize that I am nowhere near thinkin' like this all the time and not even most of the time, but sometimes....and I am comin' to terms that this is the way I should be thinkin'.]
Accordingly, when these realizations don't play a roll, and I succumb to my old style of thinkin', I am immediately transformed back into the crazy porn addict low life I always was and always will be (without recovery), and no action is deemed too low, for why should it be? Life is about indulgin' in pleasures and this right now is what excites me and turns me on. And my friends, there is a drawback (a minor one) of bein' somewhat in recovery. I have become sensitized to lust like I never was in my life. In my previous three decades, the lust was part of my life and enjoyment. I could "go" for five hours, three days, a week and a half until "givin' in (so to speak)," for there was no thought process behind the pleasure. But now, I know precisely what it is I am doin'. I am not livin' life; I am throwin' it away. This break aint no party; it is nauseatin' and bitter. Nobody stays overtime at a funeral. It ain't pretty and it's over as soon as it started.
I know that I have a certain style of writin' and perhaps here it may even come out that I know what I'm talkin' about. Fellows, I don't really. Some of what I wrote makes sense to me; some of it is bangin' around inside of me and it may have merit. Parts (that I made up) may even be shtussim gemmurim.
I write for myself and for whoever might get somethin' from it.
b'hatzlachah to all
Nice post, I must say.
Worth thinkin' about.
Read it a bunch of times. But it’s easier to read than it is to apply in life, right? Lots here. Thank you, friend.
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13 Aug 2023 14:17
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5Uu80*cdwB#^
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I am going through the wringer.
I had a terrible night filled with the worst possible triggering dreams alternating with awful "regular" nightmares. In the triggering dreams I was fighting so vividly I felt I was fighting the nisayon while awake. I was literally oimed in nisayon in these dreams. I remember hearing my voice in the dreams throughout the night "Don't look!" "But I want to SO bad!" "Don't look!" etc on and on. I ended up managing to never look in the dreams, but I caught the imagery out of the corner of my eye ONE TIME in the first dream before looking away and that was enough to send me reeling the entire night. I'm sure others have experienced this. It's an unbelievable thing that this addiction is so deeply rooted that it penetrates even the arena of our dreams.
Woke up this morning feeling terrible even though I should have felt like a superhero.
I ran to take a freezing water until my hyperventilation from the ice-cold water made me feel start to feel a little faint so I got out.
I then managed to quickly go to shul and learned halacha for ~45 minutes before davening, which went well.
Now I'm here. I feel uncomfortable and worn out but THIS IS MY AVODAH. I heard Rabbi Meir Simcha Sperling say on the Vayimaen clip today after I davened Shacharis that we are like Navy Seals in Hashem's army, להבדיל אלף הדבולת. Very inspirational to me.
I do not care that my intellect is trying to dream up a hundred treif svoras why it should be muttar for me to be מוציא זרע לבטלה right now. "Oh, it will help you learn better because you'll feel more relaxed." "Really it's for your benefit because of this or that."
I WILL NOT LISTEN TO MY YETZER HARA IN DISGUISE AS A LAMBDAN!!!
I will not budge. I will not give up. I will suffer the pain that is dealt to me in order to do what is right. With Hashem's Help, this storm will be over soon.
נעשה ונשמע.
Have a great day, everyone!
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13 Aug 2023 04:13
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cordnoy
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cordnoy wrote on 04 Jul 2014 07:38:
There were two issues that were layin' heavily on my mind regardin' my last fall.
1. How could it take a mere few minutes of givin' in to lust to fall backwards in to the filth I was into from over 13 months beforehand (granted that there were another two falls in between)? Haven't I learned enough with therapist and SA group to be a bit smarter than that? Have I zero control? Ok...lust, but so low (and sorry that I'm not delineatin' here).
2. Why was I in such emotional pain this time? Why did it hurt so much? Last time (after 115 days of bein' clean), it was an enjoyable week with three falls? Why was this time (after 158 days) so short and nauseatin'?
After speakin' with an expert today, it seems that there is one answer to both. Yes, I am in recovery (I have not recovered - ain't that the truth?...I am in the recovery process), but recovery does not mean "free from lustin'." That can be an outcome if one is workin' the steps or whatever way he is recoverin', but the definition of recovery is not free of lust. Recoverin' means to understand and accept that I am an addict. It is the understandin' that I know and realize that this poison will make my life unmanageable (as it has in the past, and as it will do in the future). Recovery means the comin' to grips that the female body and sex in general is not to be worshipped and sought after, and if I can't have my fill then it affects my entire life. A woman on the street is merely that...she is a woman on the street, and she has nothin' to do with me. Relations with my wife is not my business! if it happens, it happens. [We take this station break to point out and emphasize that I am nowhere near thinkin' like this all the time and not even most of the time, but sometimes....and I am comin' to terms that this is the way I should be thinkin'.]
Accordingly, when these realizations don't play a roll, and I succumb to my old style of thinkin', I am immediately transformed back into the crazy porn addict low life I always was and always will be (without recovery), and no action is deemed too low, for why should it be? Life is about indulgin' in pleasures and this right now is what excites me and turns me on. And my friends, there is a drawback (a minor one) of bein' somewhat in recovery. I have become sensitized to lust like I never was in my life. In my previous three decades, the lust was part of my life and enjoyment. I could "go" for five hours, three days, a week and a half until "givin' in (so to speak)," for there was no thought process behind the pleasure. But now, I know precisely what it is I am doin'. I am not livin' life; I am throwin' it away. This break aint no party; it is nauseatin' and bitter. Nobody stays overtime at a funeral. It ain't pretty and it's over as soon as it started.
I know that I have a certain style of writin' and perhaps here it may even come out that I know what I'm talkin' about. Fellows, I don't really. Some of what I wrote makes sense to me; some of it is bangin' around inside of me and it may have merit. Parts (that I made up) may even be shtussim gemmurim.
I write for myself and for whoever might get somethin' from it.
b'hatzlachah to all
Nice post, I must say.
Worth thinkin' about.
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11 Aug 2023 15:16
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DavidT
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mailer wrote on 11 Aug 2023 14:08:
Because of the exact point under discussion! I never CHANGED how I deal with my inner emotions. The clean years were actually because I was accountable in this inyin with a toxic mentor, who did not give me the tools or knowledge to change. He never shared with me that change was possible from within MYSELF. He was happy to have me under his control, and be dependent on him for the rest of my life, with the shame and humiliation that if I would fall, he would know it, and the shame and humiliation of a "confession" did indeed reign in my behaviors. But internally, I was a MESS and craving P and M more powerfully then ever! When I finally broke free from this religious relationship, the floodgates of pent up desires broke free. Six years of being clean down the tubes.
Hi "mailer" - you're bringing out one of the most important points about true recovery. As Rabbi Avraham J. Twerski Z"L repeated many times what he heard for an addict in recovery“The man I once was drank, and the man I once was will drink again.” Successful recovery requires emergence of a new person.
You can do it, it is indeed possible!
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11 Aug 2023 11:48
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retrych
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Time.
I was a complete passive entertainment addict for years. Spent any available moment on the computer doing nothing even remotely interesting. Didn't hang out with friends, or even learn to drive, nothing.
I didint think it would be possible for me to go even a day without long periods of computer or other equally vapid distraction. SHabbos and Yom Tov were hard enough. Nothing else could hold my interest. And during lust, frustration, etc, forget it.
After the whole painful and boring withdrawal period, you eventually gain an interest in other things, and they can even work in the situations you describe. Right now it feels like nothing short of one addiction or the other can relieve your mind, but that does change.
Also, sleep.
Daydreaming worked for me to, but that's just another version of the same addiction.
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11 Aug 2023 03:56
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5Uu80*cdwB#^
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Mazal tov—I've reached a clean streak of 700 days.
Some short updates:
I'm experiencing some turbulent air right now due to some things going on in my life, but I am committed to making it through. Being on the defensive is difficult as always. I want to get back to the offensive as soon as possible, but it might be a couple more weeks of fighting before that's realistic. It's a stark reminder that addiction is a chronic disease. But, do not despair. It doesn't matter what type of disease addiction is; your only option is to beat it or die from it. I will choose to beat it. The taivos and pain I'm feeling are reminiscent of my life 700 days ago, it's just that now I am much stronger emotionally and spiritually, and have the toolkit, grit, and awareness of my close relationship with Hashem that is necessary to weather the storm. I am willing to suffer the pain. I am willing to suffer the pain. I am willing to suffer the pain. I will live a life with pain in order to do what's right.
Yes, I am in physical pain. Yes, my mind desires to fantasize right now. I am working, as always, to gently direct myself onward from these thoughts, which does work. No, I don't have to run to the pacifier of הוצאת זרע to numb my discomfort even though I want to. Agav, the fact that I crave to return to the same behaviors that destroyed my life prior to GYE is extremely characteristic of the fact that this is an addiction.
The accountability of my streak is very helpful to me. I wanted to fall to my addiction 2 days ago but said to myself, "I cannot let the GYE community down. They believe in me and I won't them down." Made it through that nisayon. You can see from this the power of accountability and community.
As always, I encourage you to realize this is an addiction, and realize that fantasy is at the root of it all.
May Hashem assist us all in doing His Will.
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07 Aug 2023 22:11
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bright
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Shmuel wrote on 06 Aug 2023 19:27:
I am not a Rav and i will not Paskan. I would however like to offer a perspective based in personal experience.
in my experience with addiction and from what I've heard from others in recovery, addiction can be a matter of life and death.
I have found that my recovery has been successful when i made it the priority in my life and sometimes it has even come before my yidishjeit...
Many Rabbanim would definitely say that. The day to day shailos may still require guidance though....
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06 Aug 2023 19:27
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Shmuel
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I am not a Rav and i will not Paskan. I would however like to offer a perspective based in personal experience.
in my experience with addiction and from what I've heard from others in recovery, addiction can be a matter of life and death.
I have found that my recovery has been successful when i made it the priority in my life and sometimes it has even come before my yidishjeit...
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06 Aug 2023 19:18
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yitzchokm
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YeshivaGuy wrote on 06 Aug 2023 17:51:
At the opposite extreme is: A married guy GD forbid is sleeping around, I’d assume that’s behavior outside of the realm of “relatively normal activity/struggles to have within the context of a marriage” and the guy would be morally responsible to disclose that to his wife.
My therapist who is a very big Y'rei Shamayim told me that there are two approaches among the therapists. Some hold that a person is responsible to be open about this with their wives. From reading in the Ba'alei Battim's forum there are many people for whom this has worked.
Other therapists believe that the wife has her personal life in the marriage and being open with her can ruin the relationship because she might have a hard time with how the information affects her personal life and because not every woman is necessarily capable of understanding her husband with the right frame of mind.
Real addictions are different and I don't know the answer.
There are cases posted on the GYE website (not on the forum) in letters written by Rabbonim and for those cases they write that a man is obligated to tell his wife. I know of different types of cases where the Rav said not to disclose anything to his wife. Obviously every case is different and a Rav should be asked about his given situation.
Dating it is a completely different type of setting. I would suggest speaking to your therapist about it and also asking a Rav whether a person is halachically obligated to disclose information. I am not a Rav so I don't know the answer to this question. As with every halachic question the Rav needs the full background information in order to give the correct answer so I would suggest being honest with the Rav and disclosing everything.
I am not a Rav and I was only writing my personal take. I wasn't trying to give psychological advice nor write halacha. Someone took it that I was and perhaps he was right. I edited and reported this post to the moderator and asked him to edit it or delete it. You can report as well. My apologies.
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06 Aug 2023 17:19
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yitzchokm
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ally wrote on 06 Aug 2023 16:26:
I believe it would be incredible if we could collaborate on a project like this, with the guidance of a knowledgeable and experienced Rav, to assist those who are struggling. It has the potential to be of such great benefit to so many of our fellow Yidden.
Maybe contact R.E.L.I.E.F. and ask them whether they know of a rav who has competence in dealing with addictions and is readily available. My guess is that they can give you the answer.
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