found this and saving here for easier finding for when needed...
a very interesting c
onverstati
on between pentinant and REBBEREBER=DOV
i added breaks to make this readable
penitent wrote on 31 Dec, 2009:
I read a lot of the white paper re:SA. I do see myself in that and relate it to my own experiences.
I do have a problem though with understanding all this "lust" etc.
Maybe I look at myself and my relati
onship with my wife... I have all these thoughts in my head.... part of me wants to break down and cry, as so many times before.
The gemara in Yoma 74: says in the name of R' Zeira "Tov mar'eh aynayim mehalach nafesh.. Tov mar'eh aynayim b'isha, yoter m'gufah shel ma'aseh" To look is always better than the actual deed.
It's the musings we c
onjure up in our minds that is exciting. It's intersting to note that scientifically, the sympathetic system is resp
onsible for arousal, erecti
on, while the parasympathetic system-which calms us down- is resp
onsible for ejaculati
on.
I always thought that the final Zing would be carried out by the system that is resp
onsible for an excitatory resp
onse. In reality, you could say it's all over when that time arrives. Am I too deep? Any
one have any clue what I'm saying? Do I???
My original questi
on is that chazal recognize human nature. To call it lust and label it a problem i.e. say I have a disease and to give me a cure seems extreme. Maybe I am in denial. See what I mean by thoughts in my head?
Did chazal call that lust? maybe. but they stress c
ontrolling the yetzer. There is a book called Cheshb
on Hanefesh which was written 150 years before Pavlov dogs, which really targets behavior modificati
on. I recommend it highly. Chazal may tell us of Gedarim we should set but it's another thing to put it into practice.
REBBEREBER=DOV answwers in not -so-dovish
quote=dov" link=topic=763.msg40619#msg40619 date=1262284223]
Dear Penitent -
Yes, it is clear that the different nervous systems work that way, as I have shared with some people out of my own experience. I'll PM you something about that issue specifically.
I love you. Period. So, please c
onsider taking what I will share with you the way it is meant - not
at all as criticism -
only as a sharing of my experience with you. Besides, as "imtrying25" will tell you, I haven't had a rant in a while, so it's about time....
You ask about SA's use of the term "Lust". You are bringing up chazals to understand the term, rather than using examples from your own pers
onal experience with your own problem. I'm all for chazal, but if we are trying to uncover what is really going
on within us, it would seem that being h
onest with ourselves is far more important than what a sefer says.
If folks say this borders
on apikorsus, then my resp
onse to them is that I'll gladly choose h
onesty in gehinom over dish
onesty in Gan eden, any day. Why? Because the
only thing that saved me from my pers
onal gehinom in addicti
on - and it
was gehinom (I need
no chazal or sefer to tell me
that) - was
honesty. And in my case, I needed a chevra and a sp
onsor to help me do that. I found that in SA.
Besides, chazal tell us that this world is an olam hafuch - those who are high here are are low there. To me that includes us when our frumkeit that is external -
only in
our brains, like Eisav's big head. Trust me, when we inject some shameless pers
onal h
onesty into the mix, Torah becomes incredibly more powerful as a force in our lives. V'anavim yirshu aretz. The
one's who seem low
on the outside, are
really high. Kapeesh?
On the other hand, being frummer did me no good, it was doomed to forever be a half-measure because - after all -
I was the
one defining and enacting the "frumkeit". It seems that you are in the same boat, otherwise why are you here? ;D
Do you get what I mean?
What do chazal mean when they tell us: "Derech Eretz Kodmah L'Torah"? To me, this is
exactly what they are talking about.
D
on't look to the Torah to save you when you are insane. How can you expect to succeed while
you'll be the
one applying and measuring it? The basis of all frumkeit
is pers
onal resp
onsibility.
Darf zeyn a mentch, ershtence.
The yidden at Har Sinai
had to be healed
before they could accept the Torah, right? Yidden need to have some basic mental health - specifically self-h
onesty - to use Torah successfully as instructi
ons for living.
Otherwise it's
known, but not applied - hey! kind of like in
our case, right? The GYE-er: a frum yid who just can't "get frum" in this area...drives us nuts, doesn't it?
In fact, a total shoteh is totally patur from the mitzvos. We in addicti
on are not true shotim,
only full of "
ruach" shtus. We are not p'turim, but seem doomed to fail at it. This insanity is clearly discussed in all 12 step literature. If you want to talk about it more, I'll gladly share my insanity with you (that sounds funny, doesn't it?).
So, I ask you (as chazal put it): how can a "chavush be matir
himself from the beis ha'asurim"? Chazal inform us that he
can't. And who is more of a chavush than an addict? No
one, to me. Isn't the self-applicati
on of Torah exactly what
all of us do for years and years until we make enough of a mess of things that we finally reach out for help, as you are?
Keep reaching for help. It's here.
Now, maybe we can talk about lust a bit.....
[/quote]
ok now the truckdriver rebbe of woodford and bardstown kentucky come in to ekplain in plain english what REBBE REB BER=DOV is sayin
take it away bards....
Pentinent
I am a talmid of the RebbeRebBer=DOV
Although I never spent a day in his yeshivah
There is a language called Dovish
You need to learn Dovish to "chapp"
DOV
I used to fight rebberebdov
Why cause I was so "macho" I was armed to the teeth with
Chazal
Courage
Resolve
Humor
A mouth like a trucker
I was c
onvinced DOV was a crazy robot apikoress
Pentinent
Let's make cheshb
on hanefesh together
When we were in the thick of our taava
Didn't we know all these chazals
Didn't we have the courage
Didn't we have all the mach
oness that a loser (sic) that dov is missing
And and and
We still had no c
ontrol
If anything we used some chazal(I did) to boost our YH
Hello who is the apikores
Me and my chazal or dov and his 12 steps
Hey I am not a 12 stepper
But we need to learn from dov
As l
ong as "I" fight the YH
"I" is in big trouble
When I surrender
I d
on't know ginoi(exactly) how dov taitches surrender but bardichev thinks it means when we remove the "zhich" the stoopid m
onkey in the middle GAAVA
From the equati
on
I am again not a 12 stepper
But what DOV says is when a man is clearly not a bar sechel we cannot use sichliyos first he must be a man
Yes we can become a man again thru Torah
By realizing that we are so helpless witout HKB"H
Coming from a n
on-12 guy
All dov is teaching us is what is pshat in the gemara "ilmalai HKB"H ozroi lo yachal loi"
Hashem doesnot need our helP we need his and we need a lot of it
I know I write a lot of jokes
on the forum . I do it to cheer myself up and to cheer up people like DOV and every
one else .Simcha is my key weap
on and DOV uses it
If u look in the ohr hachaim in ekev he says a lot of what I say here
I have a posotive spin that it is never too late to start living
I call it
Keep on trucking!!
Jump
on my truck!!
DOV comes here too (sources say)
W
A
T
L
I
T
W
Bards