Yup, reb Eye, same here. Staying on the even keel and humility are attached, for me. And humility and sanity are attached, too. So reaching for the ecstasy - albeit frum and spiritual - can sometimes be poison. Siyata diShmaya.......

I was just thinking something recently.

When I first joined this forum I was thinking, "I don't have such a big problem.  I just have a lot of trouble controlling my eyes on the street.  But po** and mas** I just slip up on once in while, and it's really not my fault because I'm trying so hard to overcome it."

I've discovered, first of all, that the po** and mas** was actually more frequent that I realized, and that there were some major underlying issues feuling these two behaviors.  I feel like I'm in a much healthier place now.  I have uncovered frustration, worries, tension, depressed thoughts, and am doing fairly well at warding them off.  I'm trying to focus on positive thoughts.  On living.

But, regarding that first problem which, at first, was the only one I really admitted was a problem--controlling my eyes on the street.  I feel like I haven't made any progress.  My eyes seem just as hefker now as they were before.

What am I missing?

Reb Eye,

Some possibilities you may wish to consider:

1) You may not be missing anything at all. That might just be the way life is. Deal with it. At least you are "a somewhat more humble, honest, and mature person - in other words: a more useful person," now. And you are still lusting out there somtimes. Did you really expect perfection?   

....or.....

2) You may be mistaken. Our "progress" is not readily apparent to us because we are looking at it from inside of ourselves. We judge its seriousness/badness exactly by how frustrated/upset we are with it right now.
So, today, you may have a much higher standard, say, in how much pleasure you take from it, how much fantasy you attach to it, or how much guilt and self-loathing you spend on it (the guilt and self-loathing being perhaps even more damaging than the fantasy...). Progress in these areas is progress, too.
So if you have progressed, it is likely that you feel worse about doing even less that you did before, because of your current improved state of sanity.
Make any sense to you? (I posted somone about this idea last week, or so, but can't remember where....) 

.....or.....

3) I'd ask you if you are working the steps in order (with help from other recovering people). If yes, great! Look back at either 1 or 2.
If you are not intending to, then count me out, for I made no apparent progress before the steps and can't relate. Sorry. I still love you, if that matters to you.

....or....

4) Maybe you are ready to start working on "controlling" your eyes in a new sort of way, now. Have a prayer to say for each and every one of the women you tend to stare at. (At least don't stare at them while saying the tefilla...). Then say it again if you still feel selfish. get worried about their lives, self-respect, health, connection with Hashem (it's really huge for everyone to have a relationship with Hashem, rather than be fooled by chazerai and living death, no? Not just yidden, right? Aren't you a nice guy? (Of course I am!) Don't you wish good for everyone? (er, sure...) So? Daven for her!!! Hey: and using her image to lust is caring? Ha! I doubt it. (......ummm....)).

Also, you can try to give your eyeballs to the Ribono Shel Olam while you are driving/walking/swimming/floating/beaming (?!) to work/yeshiva. I used to say the parsha of the Tomid (be'al peh, of course) while driving into work, instead of taking that "second look" at the first image of a woman that I noticed in an adjacent car (or walking/jogging by) every morning, and treated the ta'ayvo - that I excruciatingly painfully gave up - as a korban to Hashem. Made it real by saying the parsha, as Chazal tell us to do in lieu of giving the korban. BTW - it was very important for it not to be the parsha of an ola or a chatos - it isn't kaporo I am interested in here at all. Guilt/Teshuva and kaporo are all strictly Hashem's business, as they have proven to be far too poisonous for me. My natural approach to them was infected full of my old ways of sick thinking that got me screwed up in the first place. Chas vesholom for me to go back there, no matter how "frum" it may seem.
It's a korban tomid. Just a gift for Hashem, cuz He's my Best Friend, My G-d, and I serve Him - rather than me or Lust - as often as possible. A nice thing to do, no?
Besides, I found that setting the table well with giving up the very first "second look" made the entire trip to work safer for me! It was really nice eyeball upgrade, though temporary - it require daily rebooting and frequent refreshing for a few months till it becomes much more natural. (Don't worry, then we'll find soemthing new to kvetch about - we always do!  : ;D )

Rambling, yeah, but nu. Hope it helps somehow. It's not advice nor preaching, just one addict's personal experience.

What can i say but................DOV YOU ARE JUST THE KING!!!

Eye, wow, 45 days!
Kol hakavod!
Keep it up brother, one day at a time.

Keep on going with positive thinking and working on living.  When on the streets or in stores, I have been trying to think about other things, not to think about what is in front of me.  I just try to keep my mind busy all the time.

Reb Dov, numbers 1, 2 and 4 (above) seem to be in direct conflict with this (underlined) statement of yours in number 3   (And that's one of the things we love about you!  :D)



Did you mean perhaps here, Reb Dov? (A Talmid remembers his Rebbe's teachings  )

Also, Reb Dov, I'm sure you probably thought of this before, but the words in Parshas Tomid, "zeh ha'Ishe asher Takrivu LaHashem" can be taken to mean "this is the woman that you should sacrifice to Hashem"  :D

Does Parshas Ha'Olah have to do with kapparah/teshuvah? Isn't olah also a present for Hashem? And that's a beautiful parsha too - "eish tamid tukad al hamizbe'ach lo sichbe" - is brought down in some sefarim that saying those words is a segulah against lust (I think).

Eye, as the handbooks state, see tool #2, guarding our eyes usually takes a lot longer to learn than stopping our "bottom line" behaviors... Read that tool again in the handbook, and here's a page with lots of great tips and attitude ideas that can help with guarding the eyes out there (read top to bottom).

Be well and KUTGW!

Thanks Dov.

I'm on day 48.

Last night was a struggle.  I ended up in a discussion with my wife that I thought went sour.  I felt really bad about it.

Afterwards, I was at my computer working (or trying to work).  I decided to goof off.  I was looking for something COMPLETELY unrelated to po**, but some showed up in the least expected of places.  It was hard to look away (partly because it was so weird I could't believe it.  It got by K9 high security undetected), but I didn't keep on searching and I got away from my computer quickly afterwards.

I was first going to send out an SOS here on the forum.  I searched my old thread "I feel like I'm about to fall," and the chizuk already written there was enough.  I felt in danger as long as I stayed by the computer, even if I was trying to use the forum.

I went to my book shelf and started browsing through some of the books I bought because they look interesting but I'll probably never ever read them.

But I still felt like I was going to lose it.

All the while I knew the struggle wasn't whether or not to act out, although I felt like acting out.  I stepped back a bit and tried to un-do the depressing thoughts.  I thought of an old friend in an appropriate time zone I might try to call and who I could trust with this topic if I decided to discuss it.  No answer, but it helped me to feel better anyways.

A thought came to mind that I recently read in the beginning of Nesivos Shalom.  Sometimes our job is just to serve Hashem from the darkness; He's always there.  I definitely felt like I was in the dark, but it felt good knowing I could still serve Hashem from there.  I didn't have to act out just because I was in the dark.  ADARABA, my job was now to NOT ACT OUT in the dark.

I still feel a little shaky, but definitely much better than last night.

Also, it did help knowing that I'd let down everyone in this match/double/90 day incentive if I would act out (and Guard wouldn't be able to afford the Woodford).

Also, BruceWayne's thread "the other side" came to mind.  The thought that these people in the pictures AREN'T enjoying themselves and, to the contrary, they are totally abused for it, helped to make it all seem less attractive.

After a dry spell I suddenly have a lot to say.

About a week ago an incident happened, which I'm still trying to figure out.

I got a job from an old female neighbor (I don't usually have anything to do with women in the course of my work).  It was an emergency job and she was very appreciative of my efforts and really complimented my work (people usually just haggle with me over the price).

It was Thursday night, and I couldn't get this out of my head until Friday afternoon when the SHabbos/chanukah preperations went into high-gear.

Part of it, I think, is because I had 1 interaction with this women which was very positive.

But, real life, real relationships, have a lot of kinks to work out, just be it getting through the daily routine every day.

So, my addiction supposes that since 100% of my interactions with this woman are positive, then she must be this really amazing positive super woman.

I think I just have to realize that she and her husband probably have their own fair share of difficulties together (though not to wish any upon them).

...and regarding controlling the eyes.

I do try to run through the first few of the 12 steps to overcome this struggle.

But I could probably use some coaching on how to use the 12 steps on something that seems so subtle.

What has been helping a bit (at least since yesterday) is thinking this:

1.  Yes, I am UNCONTROLLABLY attracted to these women.  (I'm an addict, after all).

2.  Yes, somehow I am getting some sort of pleasure out of this.

3.  BUT, this is counterfeit pleasure.

4.  I want to trade with G-d.  I want to turn in this fake pleasure for real pleasure.

5.  I cannot fathom at this moment what the trade-in will be.  But, I will at least try to do my part.

I can't straight-out tell myself that I'm not interested, or that it's not enjoyable.  I'd feel like I'm lying to myself.  I feel I should acknowlede what my addicted self feels, and then nevertheless be willing to get rid of it.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 17 Dec 2009 13:51:


You're definitely correct.  All wives (unless they're greater than Sarah Imeinu - see Bereishis 16, 5) at least sometimes give their husbands a hard time in one way or another, deserved or not (sorry ladies - but, no major Chiddushim here).  It's part of the price husbands pay to have an intimate relationship with their wives.  Does anyone disagree?  (Some may argue that it's always deserved, but I think the rest of what I wrote is irrefutable).

Rage ATM wrote on 17 Dec 2009 14:53:


You're right - I'm speaking from the man's perspective.  Also, I'm referring specifically to people who have a sexual relationship.  A certain sex addict, who was United States President for most of the 1990's (see - there's hope for all of us! ), used to have fights over the phone with his mistress.  Now let's get this straight - the leader of the free world is getting into petty fights with a White House intern?  Answer: Yes - that's the price he had to pay for having a sexual relationship with her!

Hi, Eye.

Re. shemiras eitnayim, please check out my last post on SUDDEN URGES!!! please help    (today). These suggestions helped me very much, tho they always need reinforcing...