I'm trying to write this as discreetly as possible.  Still, not-yet-married people might want to skip this message for now.


My wife and I are going through a stage of abstinence for medical reasons.  It's been about 2 weeks and ending soon (Be"h).  It's not niddah related, so we don't have to do any harchakas.

What would be some recommended guidelines for marital intimacy for a lust addict in such a situation?

It's also a general question, as I am anyways struggling with this issue.  I have a hard time just being cuddly (and more than cuddly, which my wife would like sometimes) without ending up going all the way (which she doesn't always like).  Is there a realistic place for this?  How far is OK?  Are we supposed to entirely avoid anything that might get us excited whatsoever? 

I think I had a slip (though no Z.L.), but I'm not really sure what to think about the whole thing.

I'd be interested to hear ideas on the matter.  Writer discretion advisable.  Perhaps PMs would be best.

Yikes. That's a hard question...

My gut tells me that both halachicly - and from the addiction standpoint - it might be best to avoid anything that could even bring to an erection. After all, if there's no option of finishing, why take the first sip? We all know where that can lead...

Sorry to hear about your predicament. Be sure it is a test from Hashem for your benefit and growth. May He give you the strength to truly grow through it!

guardureyes wrote on 28 Nov 2009 18:00:


Thanks, that's what I was starting to think, too.

My confusion was because I thought, maybe in all this time my wife really needs something a little more.  And maybe it's my duty to take a risk for this.

Once again, amazing what happens if you just ask:
I discusses this with my wife.  She clarified that, physically, that cuddly "loved" feeling is sufficient.  Which is much less that what I thought she needs.

I think I could handle this.  (But a few months ago I couldn't).

I'm with Guard.  Under these circumstances the minor Harchakos (e.g. passing things, sitting on her bed, pouring her a drink, touching where there is no Chibah) should not be a problem.  But the major Harchakos, such as hugging, kissing, and cuddling should be avoided.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 28 Nov 2009 22:29:


I would do almost anything for my wife.  But, risking my sobriety is not on the table, for her sake as much as for mine.

Dear Reb Eye, (i still want to write "rib-eye", but it gets me way too hungry...)
Disclaimer: Dovish 102 and 202 may be a prerequisite for this post.
Perhaps this should be a PM, but here goes...probably nothing you don't already know, just sharing what I am finding out the hard way (of course!):
What my wife really, really needs is to be loved. What I really, really need is to love. If there is anything positive that I can use the niddah thing for (mitzvos are eitzos, right? [Zohar h"K']), it is to learn what intimacy really is. Now, as a professional lustaholic, I was absolutely sure I knew exactly what intimacy really is and exactly how to measure it, too. I tried to convince my wife of my definition for years. Heh-heh. Boy, was I off. No wonder life didn't work too well for all parties involved...
No, I'm not saying that honesty and open communication should always be enough, so cuddling should always be more than enough when we are mutar. What I am trying to share is that the combination of open and honest communication about what we each want and expect (out of physical intimacy, out of our jobs, out of our kids, our shuls, our friends, our diets, everything!) combined with me seeing what a priviledge it is and how meaningful it is to be physically close with the person I am sharing life with, is a simple pleasure that can't be beat by all the lust in the world. It can be, and perhaps should be, quite satisfying.
So, being able to be physically close (even without going "very far", as you put it) to the person I am building a life with, WHILE being emotionally together as well, takes a bit of the wind out of sexuality, and 99% of the wind out of lust.
In fact, it actually begs the question: Where does sexuality, when appropriate, figure into improving this relationship? And that is something I do not believe any rov, shmooz, or sefer needs to (or perhaps can) answer. That is not apikorsus, I hope...I believe it's just something we all need to discover together as couples.

One more thing. This busines about being OK with cuddling and emotional closeness, is not something that would have been "OK" with me 15 years ago. In fact, it would have probably been ossur. See, I didn't see the value nor the power of physical and/or emotional closeness without sexuality, back then. To me, it was anathema. Therefore, being physically close would just have been teasing my YH. You know, "al yiharher odom bayom...."
Now, sorry if this offends anyone, but aside from halachik issues, of course, I do not believe that many of the standard, party-line Torah mottos and mussar guidelines are meant for recovering perverts, like me. Hey, I do not even see lust as primarily coming from my YH. Many here do, and I respect that. As far as I am concerned, though, I consider it a mental illness combined with a physical allergy, that I innocently (but very stupidly) learned to use in order to protect me from all spiritual and emotional pain. I don't focus on the gravity of the aveiro to stay sober. It never stopped me before! In fact, my frummest efforts got me as screwed up as I got. What helps me is coming to see that it will kill me, and learning how to depend on Hashem instead. Even though I am still a very poor example of a yid in many ways. "afilu rosho, ubote'ach ba'Shem chesed yisovevenhu," chazal say (reb Yisroel Salanter and others elaborate on that...).
So, no, for us today, it's sometimes bedafka safer to be physically close and not go farther than to stay further apart. It makes me aware that I am loving in this way, without the stuff I thought was so important, at all. Now that's gotta be some kind of teshuvah.  
Some days, though, the above just doesn't work at all (usually when I get very self-absorbed and selfish) and at those times I can't tolerate being physically close at all, if going farther is out of the picture. Like kedusha said, I'm not sacrificing my sobriety for anything.
Hak'lal: Above all, I need to be as fearlessly honest as possible with myself and with my wife about where I stand about this, too.

dov wrote on 29 Nov 2009 21:14:


Boruch SheKivanti!  :D ;D

Well, this limbo is continuing a little longer.

This afternoon I had this feeling that all hope was lost.

I felt like I was suddenly run over by a steam-roller.

It was hard, but I slowly pulled myself back out of it.

I just tried to focus on the moment; what can I do now; what do I have to do now.
I was home alone watching most of the kids, so there was plenty to do.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 29 Nov 2009 21:52:
Gevaldiggggggggggg!!, as someone else here would put it. Doesn't really sound like "limbo" to me. It seems that you are living the one life youv'e got today.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 29 Nov 2009 21:52:


You're doing great, Eye.  Take one day at a time - you have every reason to succeed this time!

I'm on day 32.

These thoughts still drift through my head sometimes "act out!"  or, "think about this..."

But it's easier to let them drift away than it used to be.

I feel like there's more distance between me and these thoughts.

...and I hope to keep it this way!

Some people REALLY ARE inspiring!!

Please keep it up - I'm with you, in any way I can be...

Today I'm on day 33.  Baruch Hashem, it's going pretty smoothly.

That's fantastic! And now you've inspired me - I'm going to go and learn a few minutes extra b'zchus your battle!