Imtrying, thanks for being stubborn and trying to REALLY understand. Because of you, we are getting all these AMAZING posts out of Reb Dov. I am learning so much from them! (and so is everyone on the chizuk e-mails  :D)...

(But no, this is not a hetter to make him nuts for no reason though  )

Wow R Dov you give me too much to think anout in one shot. But here goes.

Not always. Like i said. Im now holding by 14 days. 13 of them i did like you said. Let the fight go to hashem. I didnt think about it. I just went along minding my own business. I DIDNT FEEL LIKE I WAS FIGHTING!!! Now on day 14 things were different. For whatever reason i got this huge crave. Maybe cuz of what i saw in the street maybe cuz of what i saw on the comp etc etc no need to come up with examoles. Now waht im saying is that i dont believe i can get past this WITHOUT FIGHTING. Yes usually the avodas hashem is is to do what you gotta do not focus on not falling etc etc but now im in a rut and ive got to get out. AND IN THIS SITCH I FEEL THAT I NEED TO FIGHT. If not ill definitly lose. Once im pass the fight i go back to regular cruise. back to what we mentioned before. Which is where im holding now on day 15. Im back to not fighting. But if that crave comes back i cant see myself passing it without a fight. And therefore im NOT like the health freak because IM NOT doing this everyday. Just when the need arises.
About the guilt. No i did not mean it in that way. I tell t to myself when im down because im such a luster, that its ok i have a sickness maybe a little different than most people but its just a sickness.

To be honest im not sure what this means. When it gets really bad i feel like ive got no way out if not fight. Am i supposed to just sit there and say ok hashem you take care of this for me?? Is that really gonna help??? Not that i dont believe Hashem cant help but is that what im supposed to do?? Everytime i think of that im convinced if i do it ill fall.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

imtrying25 wrote on 24 Nov 2009 22:17:
We all have good days and bad days. It sounds like Hashem is going to help you get through today.
I appreciated everything that you posted. (Your posts are a lot clearer than mine, thanks.)
I just wonder what would happen if you tried this experiment: The next time you fear that the lust stuff is beckoning for a fight and you just need to fight it off, as you describe, try stopping whatever you are doing and saying quietly: Tatty/Pappa/Hashem/RSh"O (whatever you say), I give up this fight, I want you to take lust right out of me and relieve me of this entire burden just for today.
if it works, great, and you may need to do it again 10 minutes or an hour later, big deal. if it doesn't, then fight for your life and with my blessing and the blessing of every single other guy on GYE!!
PS. Sometimes I fight, too. But I don't like it...but it beats acting out!! I'll give that to ya!
Love,
Dov

NOT TRUE! Thats just your anivos talking. Now being a ormer addict im sure you realize that this is not the real you.......... :D :D

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I DID SITTING THERE WAITING FOR THE BUS.And i didnt feel anything going away. I said Hashem please take the lust away. It felt good talking to him But i didnt feel the craving going away. Now im not trying to make you crasy im just trying to figure it all out.


R Dov this is not what i want to hear. I need to know whts the right way of doing this. Not what works. Im in this for the long haul and i need something thats gonna allow me to keep myself sober.......forever.  Im willing to hear that im wrong. I wanna hear that im wrong , if i am. Cuz im not looking for shortcuts.  I JUST WANNA BE SOBER!! :'( :'( Im not fighting to prove im right im trying to understand all of this.

Imtrying, Dov also said in his previous that he fights sometimes once the thoughts got in (and he described various tools he uses to "fight" it)... He just claimed that the fighting is a "half measure" and we need to focus on the BEEF. So you are not disagreeing with him at all. For 13 days you focused on the BEEF. On day 14, you needed to fight, and you need to use the tools that Dov described, as he wrote:




But once you get over it, it's back to LIVING for HASHEM. 

Thanks R Guard. This is what imtrying to do. Although its not so easy. But i tell myself that people bigger and better than me told me it works so im gonna listen. And they went through it too.  But even Dov makes it sound like that the day 14 fight was only b'dieved. And im trying to understand whats the better way of doing it. Cuz like i said im not trying to be clean for a couple of days i want this thing to last!!

Hey I'mtrying! Glad to see  you survived your challenge yesterday. You da man!

'I Hope You Dance... '



This was written by an 83-year-old woman to her friend.

*The last line says it all. *

Dear Bertha,

I'm reading more and dusting less. I'm sitting in the yard and admiring the view without fussing about the weeds in the  garden. I'm spending more time with my family and friends and less time working.

Whenever possible, life should be a pattern of experiences to savor, not to endure. I'm trying to recognize these moments now and cherish them.

I'm not "saving" anything; we use our good china and crystal for every special event such as losing a pound, getting the sink unstopped, or the first Amaryllis blossom.

I wear my good blazer to the market. My theory is if I look prosperous, I can shell out $28.49 for one small bag of groceries. I'm not saving my good perfume for special parties, but wearing it for clerks in the hardware store and tellers at the bank.

"Someday" and "one of these days" are losing their grip on my vocabulary. If it's worth seeing or hearing or doing, I want to see and hear and do it now

I'm not sure what others would've done had they known they wouldn't be here for the tomorrow that we all take for granted. I think they would have called family members and a few close friends. They might have called a few former friends to apologize and mend fences for past squabbles. I like to think they would have gone out for a Chinese dinner or for whatever their favorite food was.

I'm guessing; I'll never know.

It's those little things left undone that would make me angry if I knew my hours were limited. Angry because I hadn't written certain letters that I intended to write one of these days. Angry and sorry that I didn't tell my husband and parents often enough how much I truly love them. I'm trying very hard not to put off, hold back, or save anything that would add laughter and luster to our lives. And every morning when I open my eyes, tell myself that it is special.

Every day, every minute, every breath truly is a gift from God.


"People say true friends must always hold hands, but true friends don't need to hold hands because they know the other hand will always be there."

imtrying25 wrote on 24 Nov 2009 22:51:

Dear imtrying25,
I pasted together a few parts of your last two posts, to pass a point along. For context, please remember first: 1- I'm not an "expert", just another addict in recovery, so I don't know about "The Truth", just my own experience, so I don't intentionally get involved with "truth". That is the Torah's business. So, while Hashem tells us the way it really IS (in his Torah), I  lehavdil (and other addicts in recovery) can only share with you the way it WORKS (for me)...in fact, that is all we often care about. 'nuff said. 2- I honestly believe as the alkies do: I can't think myself into right living, I can only live myself into right thinking. So, I completely give up on figuring this problem out, at all. In contrast, all I wanted to do before getting sober was "to figure out what was wrong with me" (to quote me, and the dozens of other well-meaning newcomers to meetings - who never get sober).
So, #1: I don't stay sober. I get a daily reprieve, that's all. Look in AA about this (chapters 4, 5 and 6). I do not ask Him for, nor look for a sober life. I look for sobriety today, only.
#2: I don't believe in formulas. Religion, like Yiddishkeit is OK with formulas - you are yotzei mincha if you say the words and know what they are basically about, even though yo do not concsiously connect with your personal source, leader/King, love of your life, and absolute best Friend. That does not work at all in recovery. It is nothing at all until it's an inside job. The steps go in order for that reason, for there is no way to have any real succes otherwise. Inspiration is not what it's about, at all. It's about action. ...that having been said, thanks for trying what I suggested!  ;D My approach is that if the step I'm using is not working, I go to the step before it to see what's missing in me and don't go on till I see it and admit it, and take the simple action necessary, with G-d's help. But it is an inside job - only. For me and everyone else I know in recovery, steps 1-3 need to be dome in writing and - even more importantly - with another recovering person. Otherwise we tend to apply the same flimsy standards that we tend to apply to yiddishkeit, to the steps! And then they won't work at all. Cuz this is an illness, not a madreiga.
Does that help?
Do you have any more patience for me?

Ok Reb Dov im gonna stop here. Although i still have questions, i feel its getting pathetic and looking like im just harassing you. I hope you realize that im a extremly sincere and trying to do my best. I dont have the aa book so i guess ill have to get a hold of it to understand fully what your saying. I really would love to meet you one day and talk one on one. Now i understand thats probaly impossible but i think we can both gain from eachother. Well i can definitly gain from you. Thanks for your patience and insights.

hey R Guard i saw you write somewhere thanking R Dov for all these posts. But i didnt see you write anything about thanking the one who got these posts out of him. it wasnt easy. I gave you what to write in the emails for like 2 weeks. :D ;D ;D :D

Dear imtrying25,
Oops, I modified the post you are responding to (a lot) a few minutes ago, before reading your response above! You may wish to read it.
No, you are not harrassing anybody. This thread is for you, not for anyone else, as far as I am concerned, no matter what GYE does with it or who reads it. It's yours. And what you sow, you reap - and you are sowing quite a bit.
And I'd love to meet you, too, though I'm pretty sure that you'd be dissappointed with what you see. I am as pathetic as the next guy, at best. I'm the guy on the bicycle right next to the short bus you'all are on....just kidding. Just doing what I need to do today, in order to remain sober one day at a time.
Let's stay friends, OK?
- D

Hey I'mtrying! Thanks for the posts. Chazak chazak, chart buddy!

And Dov, you analyze things sooooo much! Isn't enough enough already? I think there comes a point when it's just plain counterproductive to focus so much on this inyan, dissecting it every which way, and slicing and splicing from every angle. I don't know about you but that just gets my mind on the yetzer hara, when I'd rather leave him outside in the cold.

NOYA,
The longer I stay on this forum, the more I see Dov's side. The way I see it (feel free to disagree or call me names), the 12 steps (in some form, lives groups, phone groups, whatever) are necessary for those who really WANTED to stop, and found that they just couldn't, no matter how hard they "tried". Some people like to fight harder and harder, and some of these people may succeed in stopping completely. I'm not one of those people. I went 7 months clean using mostly the "fighting" method, and then I slowly started slipping backwards. I don't like that, so I came back here, and I'm going to work on implementing some elements of the 12 steps (I think it's really just the basics of spirituality anyway) into my life. The reason Dov dissects it so much (feel free to correct me on this Dov), is because he tried the fighting method and in the long run, it just didn't work. He's doing the 12 step method, and it actually works because it changes the way the battle actually works (you surrender instead of "fighting"). It actually the opposite of what you think. The fighting method involves not thinking of pink elephants; the 12 steps requires you to dissect your relationship with God. It does not focus on dissecting "the inyan," as you put it. Also, part of the 12 steps is about helping others (I think), and Dov is trying to do that by posting what works for him (and many others like him). When you help others, it strengthens you as well. That's my opinion; take it or leave it :D

NOYA, you must be joking, right? That's exactly what Dov's been saying all along! You hit the nail on the head. I see Dov's words are starting to effect you :D

guardureyes wrote on 24 Nov 2009 22:11: