MBJ wrote:


I am not trying to do anything, just responding to Dov because he called my name to complain about my opinions.

This is between you and Dov. If you want more of a group experience go to SA.

nederman wrote:


You missed my point. What you are trying to do is help people with their recovery by giving them tools that they can use to overcome their problems. That was all I meant.

I did not come here for machloket.

[quote="nederman" post=200004]dov wrote:


Whoa. You misunderstood what I wrote completely. And it's not the first time.

It never even occured to me that you are or ever were dishonest about anything! I wrote that I do not blame you for the negative things you write about 12 step recovery. "Not blaming you" means that I appreciate where you are coming from and even agree with you in some respect.

If you misunderstand it and get negative when people agree with you, that's not helpful. Give peace chance, OK?

I wrote - and meant - that if you just clarified what I asked you to clarify, I'd erase the value judgement from my piece for I have no desire to ever misrepresent anyone. Given what you have posted repeatedly about SA meetings and the 12 steps I do not believe what I wrote was inappropriate nor an insult in any way. And now that you responded and wrote:
nederman wrote:
I'll erase the word in question. Simple.

But I bear witness that by far, the greatest gift of SA and 12 steps is in what happens in the years after the addict stops acting out. I personally know dozens of guys in SA recovery who are sober for years - and davka these guys are discovering a progressively deepening avodas Hashem, progressively deepening marriages, and freedom to live better than we had ever dreamed, directly through using the tools of the program and meetings, as am I. You have repeatedly referred to SA as if it were primarily concerned with quitting the acting out, and that is incorrect. GYE is certainly all about quitting acting out, and that's great. But AA/NA/SA is mainly about what to do after one stops, so that it becomes and remains unecessary. It is Derech Eretz Kodmah laTorah for addicts, and I can see no reason that CT would not fit nicely with any addict working his or her 7th step. (Though I imagine you see them as diametrically opposed - based on your understanding of the program.)

Finally, 'make me angry'? You don't yet have that power, chaver. It's only about misrepresentations about the program, not about me and not about you. And we have been down this way before when I reminded you about how Rav Dessler pointed out that the people told Hillel "this will probably make you angry, but..." - just to try and get him to get angry in the first place. There is no need for that here.

I agree with you on so much, as I have clarified before. I bless you as you, I assume bless me, to have success in your work sharing here on GYE and being Hashem's tool for brocha to others and enjoy the good life. What more can we ask for?

That is not a blessing. You are just blessing me to overpower your resentment.

Why are you interpreting the things I write so negatively, nederman?

Because you flip flop a lot. You get angry, then you tell we are best buddies.

dov wrote:


Dov can you explain this idea of loving vs. lusting a bit more for those sobering up?
I can completely relate to what you are saying.
My self-honest mindset during this clean period has given me a glimpse into what living a 'real life' is, as opposed to the 'fantasy' that I've been living through. This has impacted my perception of the idea of love.

My conclusion is that I have no idea what love toward another woman is. I understand lust. I understand being nice, warm, and caring toward others.
I understand loving my parents and brothers.
But love in a sensual way to a girlfriend/wife...I have no idea what this means.

As a young single guy my connection to women in a sensual way has been strongly influence by lust.

And I have reached a crazy but brutally honest conclusion for myself. I need to actually spend more time living in my 'real life' (and not having the fantasy world cloud my experience) and seeing how I fit in and perceive myself in that 'real life', before I am ready to intimately share my 'real life' with another woman.
Because chances are she's been living a 'real life' her whole life, whereas I've only experienced it sporadically, and for a relatively short clean streak recently.

I am a bit confused on this though...this all came from self-honesty which sometimes totally blows me away when i think it through and put it on paper. So I guess I'm asking for a reality check from someone who's been there done that...

90 Days.

On the one hand, this is a huge number for me. It has been a long long long time since I went 90 days clean. On the other hand, it is such a paltry number, I mentioned before I have 90 cleam days versus over 7000 days in tumah. On the whole I find this whole 90 thing anti-climactic. I have not suddenly become a new person now that I have reached 90. I am the same guy as I was at 89 and I will be the same guy at 91. I guess what is important is that I am not the same guy I was at day 1. That is the main thing, there are no big jumps just slow steady progress (hopefully). In the end 90 is just a nice round number. I still have urges and taivot. I still have to guard my eyes. Maybe the difference now is that I can say lets do another 90, and I actually believe I can do it. The proof, after all, is always in the pudding.

Thanks for being there and listening to my ramblings.

Eli

What method are you employing these days to overcome desire?

nederman wrote:

whatever works :D !

Seriously, it depends on the situation. If I feel the urge to 'do' something bad, I tell myself to stop and I stop. I say not now, or I don't really want this, or it isn't worth it. Some such thing that gets me out of that frame of mind.

If I find myself looking in the wrong place, I avert my gaze, or I try to recalibrate my looking. I know the difference between seeing something and staring with my toungue hanging out and drool dripping from my chin. If I know that the subject I am looking at cannot be recalibrated because it is too suggestive, I look away. Otherwise I try to recalibrate my eyes, to see in a 'normal' way.

Sounds like you got your choice back.

I certainly hope so.

Mazel tov!!

(Now the parentheses come off!) The title should now read "MBJ's more than 90 day Journey"!

jjblue13 wrote:

True

Is there a sister site for shemirat ha'af? That YH is one tricky dude. I am coming to grips with my eyes, but my nose I wasn't prepared for.

49 Days[/quote]

Oh man, i coudnt sop laughing of that phrase, I almost broke my ribs...