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TOPIC: Parenthesis 3909 Views

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 14:19 #344473

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bego wrote on 25 Oct 2019 09:30:
May I suggest that a lot of the debate here might stem from people's mesorah? For example, those with a more chassidish mesorah MIGHT be less inclined to think negatively about previous geenrations (I know many chasidim (pure satmar) and their kibbud ov v'eim and their general appreciation of previous doros is inspiring) whereas I think the litvishe world (pre-the making of our gedolim into rebbes) was always more cycnical. 

Dunno. Maybe?


i dont think your statement on the litvish is accurate, slabadka  had tremendous positive outlook on the previous generations ,Reb Yerucham Levovtz ztl (kelm)said that we dont begin to understand the greatness of our grandmothers(his grandmother which would be equivalent to my great great grandmother)
the ones who i am aware who say that our ancestors were nothing really special are the reform movement who feel that if they accomplish degrading klal yisroel then they wont have a guilty concionces(dont know how to spell it)to live their materialistic way of life,but if one realizes how great  great our past was , that gives us the spur to live up to that past but if one feels that our people always masterbated in a rampant waywithout any proof, it just enables me to masterbate without that guilty feeling
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 14:23 #344474

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bego wrote on 25 Oct 2019 09:30:
May I suggest that a lot of the debate here might stem from people's mesorah? For example, those with a more chassidish mesorah MIGHT be less inclined to think negatively about previous geenrations (I know many chasidim (pure satmar) and their kibbud ov v'eim and their general appreciation of previous doros is inspiring) whereas I think the litvishe world (pre-the making of our gedolim into rebbes) was always more cycnical. 

Dunno. Maybe?

It can get a little confusing trying to work out who is debating who here, so I'm just going to address the oilom (if anyone is interested). I do think that previous doros always had these issues. The torah itself (as I have previously noted and please, don't tell me we cant judge them, I'm not. But I am saying the Torah is full of this stuff) has lots of interesting examples. Classic gemoro about the apprentice who messed with his master's wife... Do you really think the beis hamikodsh was destroyed just because of that? Is Hashem that petty? it's a sign of those times. Such things were rampant (nice assertion there).

There is a Rishon somewhere (helpful that, isn't it) who talks about how people in his dor are doing basically every Aveiro under the sun between men and women. Or is it a kli yokor? I don't remember.

Who does the MB in the biur halocho on the 10 days of repentance bring the teshuva for someone who sleeps with a shikse? Because it so chomur? There are plenty of chomur aveiros. Maybe because it's because its frequent?

For the record, (IMHO) trouble isn't trouble. He's a real Yid who asks hard questions as a yid should. I don't go for all this modern stuff about accepting everything. Look in the rishonim. they asked hard questions and looked for answers. Trouble is just following in that mesora. 

which story with the apprentace?tthat happened during the first Beis Hamikdash or second?
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:18 #344479

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Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 11:53:
One other point please:

Mr higher seems to be a very passionate, driven, motivated and spiritual-striving person. I respect that greatly.

His main point seems to be that there might have been a minority of Orthodox Jews that engaged in this behavior throughout the generations, but the sin, due to its gravity, takes center stage at times, but not because it was rampant (in that context, I think the word is permitted). It's valid and I disagree; that's fine by me. I hope it is by him as well.

I, due to my limited capacity of understanding in-depth intricate arguments, have "trouble" understanding his intricacies, hyperbole, bolded, quoted, line of reasoning, at times. I therefore leave it and do not focus. That is why I'm not a good chatter as well. It's me and my stubbornness and haughtiness that gets in the way.

Last night, gye identified Mr higher with a female emoji. That was the impetus of my comment, joke (which I thought was pretty good). However, gye kept switching his/her label back and forth, so I simply deleted my comment. I apologize.

And finally, dov has been told countless of times that he rambles on and on. He knows it. He does think, however, that he is making strong and valid points in his tangential approach. May God be with us all!

that is funny! i didnt notice the emoji change and was trying to figure out the joke...
​since you took the liberty to summarize my thoughts im gonna take the liberty to correct a drop...(oh no...dont worry a thread named parenthesis shouldnt go on that long, right?) well survive another post then. i hope.
regarding my ''opinion'' (and im addressing president bego as well.
contrary to popular belief i dont have an opinion on the matter. (i hope that didnt make it worse cuz its in bold...)
all i was saying was that even if (not just a minority) but a majority of jews throughout the ages engaged in it (save yaakov avinu etc., remember?)
there is still no proof as to how many tmes each individual did it. could be it was a couple, could be it was a hundred could be every week or more!

BUT THERES NO WAY FOR US TO KNOW.

cuz even if each person did it a couple of times, coupled with the severity of the sin-thats what created the implications and the need for its mentioning in zakkah etc.
as you said this is a valid point. you can disagree with it. (duh) 
but as long as the point is valid. (which it is)....
theres no proof!
one way or the other.  (whether it was rampant or not)
we simply dont know.
and therefore we cant make any conclusions.
this makes no difference whether your mesorah is satmar or lubavitch or yekkish or litvish or Somalian for cryin out loud!
(i think its clear by now that i understood ''rampant'' (SHA! NU!) as BEING DONE MANY TIMES by each person (not just whether there were 6 oisvorfs or 6 million-not to say that any were oisvorfs im just borrowing the term.)
i thanked your post because i appreciate your tone.
halevai vayter! (at least sometimes.) 
(for those that learn yosher divrey emes i dont think hes contradicting anything that i was saying but thats another discussion.)
Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 15:27 by higher.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:36 #344482

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sleepy wrote on 25 Oct 2019 14:19:

bego wrote on 25 Oct 2019 09:30:
May I suggest that a lot of the debate here might stem from people's mesorah? For example, those with a more chassidish mesorah MIGHT be less inclined to think negatively about previous geenrations (I know many chasidim (pure satmar) and their kibbud ov v'eim and their general appreciation of previous doros is inspiring) whereas I think the litvishe world (pre-the making of our gedolim into rebbes) was always more cycnical. 

Dunno. Maybe?




i dont think your statement on the litvish is accurate, slabadka  had tremendous positive outlook on the previous generations ,Reb Yerucham Levovtz ztl (kelm)said that we dont begin to understand the greatness of our grandmothers(his grandmother which would be equivalent to my great great grandmother)
the ones who i am aware who say that our ancestors were nothing really special are the reform movement who feel that if they accomplish degrading klal yisroel then they wont have a guilty concionces(dont know how to spell it)to live their materialistic way of life,but if one realizes how great  great our past was , that gives us the spur to live up to that past but if one feels that our people always masterbated in a rampant waywithout any proof, it just enables me to masterbate without that guilty feeling

i dont neccasarily agree with everything in this post but the point is a point. the yiras shomayim was indescribable and its very clear that thats what rav yeruchom was saying. aside from wherever the haskalah wrecked havoc, (and during that time), this famous qoute from rav yeruchum, and ive heard this many times, was describing how we cant even fathom the greatness of previous doros (and he was talking not about rishonim his grandmother etc.)
this underscores the importance that (especially when we know theres a general rule of hisyardu hadoros) how careful we have to be when making statements about the previous doros. not every story that we see in the torah or in gemara is to be taken at face value, despite the lessons we are supposed to learn from them. and either way, if we want to say something conclusive about an entire earlier generation we need (i think) more than an opinion, a svarah, or even a diyuk in zaakah (which can be interpreted diff, but thats besides the point)
we need conclusive proof as well!
Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 15:40 by higher.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:38 #344485

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higher wrote on 25 Oct 2019 15:18:

Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 11:53:
One other point please:

Mr higher seems to be a very passionate, driven, motivated and spiritual-striving person. I respect that greatly.

His main point seems to be that there might have been a minority of Orthodox Jews that engaged in this behavior throughout the generations, but the sin, due to its gravity, takes center stage at times, but not because it was rampant (in that context, I think the word is permitted). It's valid and I disagree; that's fine by me. I hope it is by him as well.

I, due to my limited capacity of understanding in-depth intricate arguments, have "trouble" understanding his intricacies, hyperbole, bolded, quoted, line of reasoning, at times. I therefore leave it and do not focus. That is why I'm not a good chatter as well. It's me and my stubbornness and haughtiness that gets in the way.

Last night, gye identified Mr higher with a female emoji. That was the impetus of my comment, joke (which I thought was pretty good). However, gye kept switching his/her label back and forth, so I simply deleted my comment. I apologize.

And finally, dov has been told countless of times that he rambles on and on. He knows it. He does think, however, that he is making strong and valid points in his tangential approach. May God be with us all!

that is funny! i didnt notice the emoji change and was trying to figure out the joke...
​since you took the liberty to summarize my thoughts im gonna take the liberty to correct a drop...(oh no...dont worry a thread named parenthesis shouldnt go on that long, right?) well survive another post then. i hope.
regarding my ''opinion'' (and im addressing president bego as well.
contrary to popular belief i dont have an opinion on the matter. (i hope that didnt make it worse cuz its in bold...)
all i was saying was that even if (not just a minority) but a majority of jews throughout the ages engaged in it (save yaakov avinu etc., remember?)
there is still no proof as to how many tmes each individual did it. could be it was a couple, could be it was a hundred could be every week or more!

BUT THERES NO WAY FOR US TO KNOW.

cuz even if each person did it a couple of times, coupled with the severity of the sin-thats what created the implications and the need for its mentioning in zakkah etc.
as you said this is a valid point. you can disagree with it. (duh) 
but as long as the point is valid. (which it is)....
theres no proof!
one way or the other.  (whether it was rampant or not)
we simply dont know.
and therefore we cant make any conclusions.
this makes no difference whether your mesorah is satmar or lubavitch or yekkish or litvish or Somalian for cryin out loud!
(i think its clear by now that i understood ''rampant'' (SHA! NU!) as BEING DONE MANY TIMES by each person (not just whether there were 6 oisvorfs or 6 million-not to say that any were oisvorfs im just borrowing the term.)
i thanked your post because i appreciate your tone.
halevai vayter! (at least sometimes.) 
(for those that learn yosher divrey emes i dont think hes contradicting anything that i was saying but thats another discussion.)

For the record, and perhaps I'm being silly, I don't really appreciate the appellation of president (I know you didn't start it). It seems to me to be a subtle put down which I don't appreciate.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:42 #344486

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im really really sorry!
im not the type of person (i would like to think) who would say anything that bothers a person.
(only if someone is jabbing at me and thats the way ya gotta talk to him.)
sorry and bln i will get around to editing my posts.
and i dont think ur being silly.
no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure whimps. im not referring to anyone specific, just in general.
Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 15:50 by higher.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:51 #344487

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higher wrote on 25 Oct 2019 15:42:
im really really sorry!
im not the type of person (i would like to think) who would say anything that bothers a person.
(only if someone is jabbing at me and thats the way ya gotta talk to him.)
sorry and bln i will get around to editing my posts.
and i dont think ur being silly.
no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure whimps.

Thank you, I appreciate that, though no need to edit past stuff.

Perhaps I was being overly opinionated....

Good shabbos everyone.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 15:53 #344489

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higher wrote on 25 Oct 2019 15:42:
im really really sorry!
im not the type of person (i would like to think) who would say anything that bothers a person.
(only if someone is jabbing at me and thats the way ya gotta talk to him.)
sorry and bln i will get around to editing my posts.
and i dont think ur being silly.
no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure whimps. im not referring to anyone specific, just in general.

"no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure "

who cant say im sorry...
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 16:19 #344491

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Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 11:53:
One other point please:
.

Last night, gye identified Mr higher with a female emoji. That was the impetus of my comment, joke (which I thought was pretty good). However, gye kept switching his/her label back and forth, so I simply deleted my comment. I apologize.



i slipped , i just browsed the the recent posts to gaze at the emojis, thats where all the mistaken  gye female emojis are hiding,(i wonder why dov/cordnoy suspects me of consorting with a silicon doll?)
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 16:27 #344493

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sleepy wrote on 25 Oct 2019 16:19:

Trouble wrote on 25 Oct 2019 11:53:
One other point please:
.

Last night, gye identified Mr higher with a female emoji. That was the impetus of my comment, joke (which I thought was pretty good). However, gye kept switching his/her label back and forth, so I simply deleted my comment. I apologize.




i slipped , i just browsed the the recent posts to gaze at the emojis, thats where all the mistaken  gye female emojis are hiding,(i wonder why dov/cordnoy suspects me of consorting with a silicon doll?)

whoa! it looks like the vaad hatznios of gye finaly cracked down , i dont see them any more
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 16:30 #344494

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sleepy wrote on 25 Oct 2019 15:53:

higher wrote on 25 Oct 2019 15:42:
im really really sorry!
im not the type of person (i would like to think) who would say anything that bothers a person.
(only if someone is jabbing at me and thats the way ya gotta talk to him.)
sorry and bln i will get around to editing my posts.
and i dont think ur being silly.
no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure whimps. im not referring to anyone specific, just in general.

"no one has to be a macho man on gye.
and alot of ppl that fake being macho men are really insecure "

who cant say im sorry...

ouch!
​i said i wasnt referring to anything specific (at least I wasnt) 
 assuming i know what your talking about, yeah i think that was pretty nasty, and i appreciate you defending me, but lets not let this get outta hand... 
 as an aside,
i think its fair to say as a general rule that if an apology is called for and doesnt come, thats the person that didnt apologize's issue. no one has to or should remain busy with it. 
just my thoughts.
Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 16:32 by higher.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 16:40 #344496

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agreed, im sorry for that stubid deleted joke, i hope no one recieved it and will take it seriously, im sorry.
For an explanation on my choice of username and avatar see my first post

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 17:36 #344499

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ע"כ קונטריס ''parenthesis''.
תם ונשלם שבח לא-ל בורא עולם.

Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 17:42 by higher.

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 17:52 #344500

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higher wrote on 25 Oct 2019 17:36:

ע"כ קונטריס ''parenthesis''.
תם ונשלם שבח לא-ל בורא עולם.


Almost like my wife.....
I start engaging in sex and she is the one who calls an end to it!
I'm all about that (substantial) bass, no trouble ....

Re: Parenthesis 25 Oct 2019 17:59 #344501

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lol. 
but ugh.....have a hard time swallowing the comparison.  

o' course do as you please this was only intended for those that really want it over (assuming that the substance is over, whether it ended a while ago or not) and dont have a way of ending it.
 dov once told me he ends conversations with a smiley face. i didnt relate to that but i tried this one.
Last Edit: 25 Oct 2019 18:03 by higher.
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