Yashuv-VYashuv wrote on 12 Nov 2010 16:38:


The conference is a regular US number.  I call in through skype.

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 11 Nov 2010 23:03:


yosef im very proud of u

may u continue to inspire!!

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 11 Nov 2010 23:03:


That's amazing - you actually met some of the Chevra in person??? 

I'm happy to report that the cycle is BH broken and I've gone 5 days clean - Kain Yirbu!. Thank you all for suggesting the 12 steps. I've listened in on a few calls with Duvid Chaim and I've taken some Chizuk from them. I'm not quite ready to participate and dial in regularly, but I'm gaining a lot from hearing real people talk about this issue so openly and being driven to recovery. I read this long thread http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=1476.0 and it helped me come to terms with the fact that this is an addiction, even though it's not progressed to the extent of most of the people on the 12 step call or of those that are so actively participating in the forum.

I also read an excellent article from Dr. Sorotzkin that I'd suggest to others who wonder where their attraction to this lust comes from - http://www.drsorotzkin.com/psychological_factors.htm . The article helped me see how my past may have lead to this lusting and to focus more on those causes than on the addiction itself. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's a major part of the 12 steps.

I'll express one thing holding me back from getting into the 12 steps conf call religiously - I don't want to become absorbed by this recovery. I don't want to spend 4 hours a week or more attending the calls and reading all the support material (big book, chizuk emails, forum posts, etc). BH the addiction has not reached those proportions, and I hope it never does.

It also occurred to me, after reading Dr. Sorotzkin's article, that there must be a whole lot of people out there suffering from this addiction. My upbringing wasn't perfect, but I didn't experience any trauma like abuse, neglect, or what have you. If you take all the people who experienced trauma and all the people in fairly normal situations like mine that's a large portion of the population - maybe 70%? Does that mean 70% of people exhibit addictive behaviors in some form and that a good portion of that 70% are SA's? This 12 step program should be as popular as Tylenol! Maybe it should be, B'Emes, and I intend to work through the steps to some degree. I'm just not emotionally ready to have it take over my life. Then again, I don't want to hit rock bottom, Ch'V, before I realize how much I need this...

As you can see, I'm having a bit of a struggle here! I guess I'm just getting used to this addiction and 12 step idea and my emotions are not quite there yet. Sue me for being so honest

Thanks for listening!

Yashuv-VYashuv wrote on 16 Nov 2010 21:03:


Were you emotionally ready to have the addiction take over your life when you first let it in.  In my view that's the issue you have to confront.  For most of us the addiction takes over our whole life.  It affects our marriage, our davening, our learning, our work.  So we have a choice we can allow the addiction to do all of those things or we can do whatever it takes to work through a program that has been successful in helping tens of thousands how to learn to live with and treat the addiction.  One thing I am certain, you get what you put in.  If you put in a half-hearted program you end up, at best, with a half-hearted recovery.

I can assure you this as well.  There is nothing in the program that is not in the Chovos Halevovos.  So if you want to live the way a Jew is really supposed to live, not the way most of us pretend its supposed to be, you'll have no downside in doing what it takes to do the program right.  I admit you may start living a more "real" life and you may be more sincere in your avodas Hashem but worse things have happened to people before.  And hopefully I'll have such "problems" as well.  Hatzlacha

Yashuv-VYashuv wrote on 16 Nov 2010 21:03:

I had the same thoughts as you, how could I committ 4 hours a week for something like this?  I realized I really needed the Tylenol and it works.  At first I just decided to go on for 40 minutes a call, which works about to be only 2 hours and change per week.  Even if your addiction has not reached that extreme as others, you still have something to gain from the program in all areas of your life.  You've got nothing to loose, and in my opinion its a lot easier than learning chovos halevoves.

Thanks guys. So I get the feeling that the conf call is something that would be extremely helpful to anyone - known addiction or not. It just that addictions are the way people get introduced to the 12 step program. I believe I heard someone on the conference call say something similar to that. This gives me a lot to think about - thanks. For now I'm just listening in.

Stuart wrote on 16 Nov 2010 22:53:


You've inspired me to try this. I think I can work it out if I eat lunch/take my break at 12 and participate in the conf at the same time. I can record it in case I'm called away.

I'm looking forward to when the new cycle begins. Is there anything I need to do besides call in? Is there some sort of email list to join?

Listening in and even participating in the 12-step phone groups is 'working the steps'? I think not. A good mussar schmooze, maybe. A chizzuk, maybe.

Very nice.

But the Vilna Gaon is quoted as saying something that seems very contrary to the good old "le'Olam ya'asok odom b'Torah (umitzvos) af shelo lishma - shehaMe'or sh'bah machziro l'mutav" concept.

He taught that Torah is compared to water because it its effect on a person is actually rather neutral. If you water a field full of weeds very well...you'll get a ton of weeds! There needs to be a thorough and repetitive weeding process if you want the 'water' to help good stuff grow. And you need to plant the right kind of seeds, too.

Meetings and reading help plant the right seeds, maybe they do a bit of weeding, too. But the main cleaning process is done by working the steps. And that can't be done by going to a meeting, on the phone, in person, or whatever.

Until an addict actually writes his step-work and shares it with other addicts who are ahead of him in the steps (and sober) and starts to use them in his real life, he is like a person who wants desperately to learn how to drive. He reads the books about driving and watches a movie about driving. Then he gets into a car and figures he'll drive to his aunt in NY....he will probably die....and he certainly won't get to NY....

The steps are the same. Working them cannot be done in the sincere imagination. Additionally, we can't take a break from real life 'to work them', either. They are only worked inside our real life with all its problems, worries, pains, and joys.

If you are an addict and anything like me, you probably do not need yet another really great mussar schmooze. You probably need some small changes, over time. Some patient, humble real live work.

By all means do the phone groups. But I say don't expect any change until you start to actually work them and stick with it for a while...and stay sober. Sobriety makes the steps actually work.

Hatzlocha!

dov wrote on 17 Nov 2010 21:28:


Thanks Dov - I appreciate the nudging. I do a lot of writing by nature so I think I can do this. I have tons of little papers of letters that I've written to myself and HKB"H - sometimes I'm kinda embarrassed when they show up around the house!

I see this 12 step program as a life changing process, as scary as that may sound (to me). I know that life change is what I need, and I have to come to terms that I must face this fear of the unknown and conquer it if I want to make something out of this life gift HKB"H has given me (and all of us).

The truth is I started going on these 12 step calls as a passive person and was hoping just to take in the mussar (don't tell Dov).  That is only a short term solution.  Eventually I digged in, did the reading, writing, and sharing.  I kvetched a bit, but in the end it wasn't that hard.  Hatzlacha!

Thanks Stuart for the encouragement. I think I'm ready to take the plunge.

I just posted a bit more about myself in my accountability group. You can find it here:

http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=3095.msg85839#msg85839

Gut Shabbos Y'all

As all us poilishe yiddin know very well:

Krakow was not built in a day.

Reb Dov, isn't that saying originally about Rome?
And ya all the filth started right there and than 1000 years ago and that's what we need to face today

Heavens to Mergatroid! Easy boy! All I was saying is that Stuart gave encouragement to the dude of this thread, "Yashuveyashuv" and YvY said that he thinks he is ready to "take the plunge", so I wanted to just pipe in that progress is progress and can really get you places.

You are right about the Rome thing. My Polish Mama told me the saying was about Krakow, not Rome, and I have always thought that it was hilarious (of course, she is really serious!). Don't you?  :-*